Southern Switzerland Bans Niqab

[dynavert2012]

Following the steps of Belgium and France, people in the southern Swiss canton of Ticino have voted to impose the country’s first ban on face-veil, sparking condemnations from Muslim and rights groups as discrimination against the fundamental rights of Muslims.

i wonder why such racist states always claim that they are respecting the human rights, if the Moriarty in Egypt voted for Coptic women to wear Hijab as a must will that be OK? it's also will be matched with the biblical teaching

Southern Switzerland Bans Niqab | Islam Story - Supervised by Dr. Ragheb Elsergany

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I don't see this as specifically racist. In fact its not racist at all. It may have racist origins or undertones but the act itself isn't racist. Zinophobic a little. But I think there is real concern for women and equality with certain aspects of Muslim culture. If a country wants to have equality between men and women then some cultural legs will have to be broken.

So if they as a country wish for sexual equality more than preservation of culture then its their perogitave.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

They have not banned anything that it is obligatory for a Muslim to wear.
However It would have been better to simply ban anyone covering their face in public.
There are many things that we can not do by law and they apply to everyone, such laws should not be discriminatory.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If a country wants to have equality between men and women then some cultural legs will have to be broken.

Suggesting, in the name of gender equality, that one should replace an Islamic truth squad with clubs with an Islamophobic truth squad with clubs is ugly hypocrisy at best.

 

[BSM1]

Suggesting, in the name of gender equality, that one should replace an Islamic truth squad with clubs with an Islamophobic truth squad with clubs is ugly hypocrisy at best.

Definitely thin ice in all directions.

 

[sandandfoam]

What's the difference between telling women what they must wear and telling women what they must not wear?

 

[Assad91]

What's the difference between telling women what they must wear and telling women what they must not wear?

Many women decide to wear it on their own.

Wait, that must not be. Because every women wants to wear less

 

[Ouroboros]

Following the steps of Belgium and France, people in the southern Swiss canton of Ticino have voted to impose the country’s first ban on face-veil, sparking condemnations from Muslim and rights groups as discrimination against the fundamental rights of Muslims.

It's for security reasons. It's hard for banks and stores to identify a person from an ID when they can't see their faces.

i wonder why such racist states always claim that they are respecting the human rights, if the Moriarty in Egypt voted for Coptic women to wear Hijab as a must will that be OK? it's also will be matched with the biblical teaching

Racism has to do with races, not religion. Egypt oppress non-believers by sanctioning "apostasy" laws. It's not a good example for human rights. And they're very strict on conversions too.

But I do understand that some people feel they have the right to wear a veil according to their religion, but does Qur'an state that women have to wear a Niqab? Or is it more of a personal preference?

 

[Pastek]

It's for security reasons. It's hard for banks and stores to identify a person from an ID when they can't see their faces.

I agree with you, the security question is very important.

We have seen for exemple that in Kenya some men were disguised in women, in Tunisia women enter in universities to recruit people for jihad with a niqab and so on ...
I agree that women must have the choice to wear it or not, but security is important.

But I do understand that some people feel they have the right to wear a veil according to their religion, but does Qur'an state that women have to wear a Niqab? Or is it more of a personal preference?

Only a veil, it's called Hijab. But she can wear a niqab or burqa if she wants.

When i went to Saudi Arabia for the Hajj they gave to everybody a little book about pilgrimage rules and here what it says :

"A woman during Ihram (sacred state of the pilgrim during the pilgrimage) is not permitted to wear gloves or a niqab or burqa."

 

[Ouroboros]

I agree with you, the security question is very important.

We have seen for exemple that in Kenya some men were disguised in women, in Tunisia women enter in universities to recruit people for jihad with a niqab and so on ...
I agree that women must have the choice to wear it or not, but security is important.

Yup.

It's illegal to wear ski masks in banks in some places in the world. No one is screaming racism about that.

Only a veil, it's called Hijab. But she can wear a niqab or burqa if she wants.

You see how much I know. LOL. Don't know the difference.

Anyway, is it required by the Qur'an for women to wear hijab?

When i went to Saudi Arabia for the Hajj they gave to everybody a little book about pilgrimage rules and here what it says :

"A woman during Ihram (sacred state of the pilgrim during the pilgrimage) is not permitted to wear gloves or a niqab or burqa."

Was that for safety reasons or something else? (Or is Saudi Arabia racist? )

 

[Apex]

Bigotry veiled in equality. Priceless!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't see this as specifically racist. In fact its not racist at all. It may have racist origins or undertones but the act itself isn't racist. Zinophobic a little. But I think there is real concern for women and equality with certain aspects of Muslim culture. If a country wants to have equality between men and women then some cultural legs will have to be broken.

So if they as a country wish for sexual equality more than preservation of culture then its their perogitave.

When a woman wears a niqab, there are two possibilities:

- she wants to wear it. In this case, her freedom is being limited needlessly, and she's being treated as someone who can't make decisions for herself.

- she doesn't want to wear it, but is being forced or coerced. In this case, stopping her from wearing it in public ghettoizes her, cuts her off from resources that could help her, and stops her from making small steps toward equality.

It's for security reasons. It's hard for banks and stores to identify a person from an ID when they can't see their faces.

And you think that because of the rare case when someone has to show ID, they should be banned from covering their face all the time?

Wouldn't any legitimate security concerns be addressed by allowing businesses to refuse service to people whose faces are covered? Why not leave it to the bank or store to decide what their specific security needs are?

... and what legitimate security concern is served by stopping someone from wearing a niqab when they take their kids to the park or mow their lawn?

 

[Pastek]

You see how much I know. LOL. Don't know the difference.

The differences :

Anyway, is it required by the Qur'an for women to wear hijab?

Yes, but some think it must not be interpreted like that.
Anyway here are the verses :

33.49 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused.

24.31 And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment (...)

Was that for safety reasons or something else? (Or is Saudi Arabia racist? )

i don't know why exactly.

 

[Ouroboros]

And you think that because of the rare case when someone has to show ID, they should be banned from covering their face all the time?

No.

The ban is only for public places though, so women can wear whatever they want in private.

The law might be going to far, but I think there's some reasoning behind it rather than just accusing them of racism.

Wouldn't any legitimate security concerns be addressed by allowing businesses to refuse service to people whose faces are covered? Why not leave it to the bank or store to decide what their specific security needs are?

Well... if they do, would they be accused of racism?

... and what legitimate security concern is served by stopping someone from wearing a niqab when they take their kids to the park or mow their lawn?

I think they are allowed to mow the lawn in niqab. The park... well, I agree it's a bit iffy. Still, I don't think it's racism. Islamophobia, sure, to some degree maybe.

 

[Ouroboros]

Pastek,

Thanks for the info.

 

[dynavert2012]

about security, i think in the bank when the women are asked to show her face, she can show her face to a female employee, we do that here in Egypt, it's not a problem
and if it's for security it would be allover the world not in certain places that are known that they are anti Islam like France and Switzerland, i think also Switzerland banned the Minerates of the mosques although it's not related to any security things

regarding it's obligation or not, that's non of the state business, but even so many scholars said it's obligation and a lot of girls and woman like to wear it even if it's not obligation.

and now if we follow Switzerland standarde it would be OK to force the non Muslims females to cover their heads as it's benefit for the Egyptian community and it won't make a difference between Muslims and non Muslims so it's good for the community unity, nobody then will distinguish between Muslims and Non Muslims
indeed if you want to break the human rights you can Justify it by thousands of claims

 

[Ouroboros]

about security, i think in the bank when the women are asked to show her face, she can show her face to a female employee, we do that here in Egypt, it's not a problem
and if it's for security it would be allover the world not in certain places that are known that they are anti Islam like France and Switzerland, i think also Switzerland banned the Minerates of the mosques although it's not related to any security things

regarding it's obligation or not, that's non of the state business, but even so many scholars said it's obligation and a lot of girls and woman like to wear it even if it's not obligation.

and now if we follow Switzerland standarde it would be OK to force the non Muslims females to cover their heads as it's benefit for the Egyptian community and it won't make a difference between Muslims and non Muslims so it's good for the community unity, nobody then will distinguish between Muslims and Non Muslims
indeed if you want to break the human rights you can Justify it by thousands of claims

Sure. But it's still not "racism". There are other reasons, and it could be argued that it has to do with human rights, religious rights, etc, but I got really stuck on the choice of words. A person can't choose his race, but he/she can choose his/her religion or how much to adhere to it or not.

It's a bit like smoking. Many places in the world outlaw smoking in public now. But isn't smoking a personal choice? Is it racism to ban smoking? No. It's no "racism". It's anti-smoking.

That law could be considered anti-niqab, but it's not anti-arab or anti-egyptian.

When it comes to the minarets... well, I can't say why they did that. If I understand it right, there are mosques with minarets there already, and they're not affected. The ban was to build more.

I guess it's a bit like in the community we live in. We're not allowed to plant palm trees because they're not native to the wild life here, even though they can grow here. It's a question of preserving the culture. Maybe that's why. Don't know.

Good thing that we can live in different countries. I know it's not easy to move with the family, but people do when it gets too bad.

 

[Pastek]

about security, i think in the bank when the women are asked to show her face, she can show her face to a female employee, we do that here in Egypt, it's not a problem
and if it's for security it would be allover the world not in certain places that are known that they are anti Islam like France and Switzerland, i think also Switzerland banned the Minerates of the mosques although it's not related to any security things

That's because they think that religion must not disturb the society. Of course, some of the protesters may be racists.

Pastek,
Thanks for the info.

You're welcome.

When it comes to the minarets... well, I can't say why they did that. If I understand it right, there are mosques with minarets there already, and they're not affected. The ban was to build more.

I guess it's a bit like in the community we live in. We're not allowed to plant palm trees because they're not native to the wild life here, even though they can grow here. It's a question of preserving the culture. Maybe that's why. Don't know.

Sometimes people see it like a little bit strange.
In France they objected the project of an orthodox russian church not because they are against christianity but because it doesn't fit with the neighborhood (next to the Eiffel Tower).

 

[Ouroboros]

Sometimes people see it like a little bit strange.
In France they objected the project of an orthodox russian church not because they are against christianity but because it doesn't fit with the neighborhood (next to the Eiffel Tower).

Right.

Sometimes it's a matter of the aesthetic etc.

Overall, I think some of these things are based on many different reasons. Some of the reasons could be fear, hate, etc, but it's just not only that. It's always more complex. It's very easy to get tunnel vision and only focus on one reason and swing the issue back. Both sides starting to beat down straw men and no one is really being sensible.

I tell you what though. If a law like that was put on the ballot here where I live, I probably wouldn't vote for it. I think it should be a choice. But, if there was regulation in place for banks, stores, and other public places where transactions are being made, I would understand it.

 

[Father Heathen]

It should be a woman's personal choice whether or not they wish wear the hijab. It's wrong to insist that they must or must not, as both rob women the freedom to decide for themselves.

Also, race and religion are two different things. Not every member of a religion all belong to the same race, nor does every member of a race all belong to the same religion.