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Egyptians & Supporters of Egypt's Constitution

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I'm having a hard time getting concise opinions on this, so I thought I'd make a thread to get some insight into this.

Why did the finalized constitution only incorporate protections for "the divine religions" or "the heavenly religions" (depending on translation) -- why not for all religions?

Was this an oversight, or was this a deliberate exclusionary tactic on the legislating and ratifying body to protect the religions they happened to like while failing to protect those they don't like? (If it was an oversight, how could it possibly have been so particularly written then?)

Do you consider this to be just? I mean, is Egypt interested in justice, equality, and freedom for ALL -- or is it just interested in freedom for the majority population? i.e., are you satisfied with mob rule?
 
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esmith

Veteran Member
You asked for an opinion. The present ruling body in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood. If you look at the historical record of this group, which has religion at its core beliefs, you can see that they believe that there is only one true religion, Islam. The hierarchy of this group are not ignorant, they knew exactly what they wanted in their so called constitution and it was not religious freedom, equality for all, or freedom as understood in most countries.
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
I'm having a hard time getting concise opinions on this, so I thought I'd make a thread to get some insight into this.

Why did the finalized constitution only incorporate protections for "the divine religions" or "the heavenly religions" (depending on translation) -- why not for all religions?

Was this an oversight, or was this a deliberate exclusionary tactic on the legislating and ratifying body to protect the religions they happened to like while failing to protect those they don't like? (If it was an oversight, how could it possibly have been so particularly written then?)

Do you consider this to be just? I mean, is Egypt interested in justice, equality, and freedom for ALL -- or is it just interested in freedom for the majority population? i.e., are you satisfied with mob rule?

My question for Egyptians is what happens if the "heavenly religions" become the minority? Do you then have an oligarchy?

Hopefully it was an oversight, they should have asked the modern day equivalent of Ben Franklin to write their constitution for them.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Islam only says christians and jews get protection. Athiest, pagans, etc have none.

Either your use of the English language is poor or you have shown you prejudice against two religions. The "nouns" Jews and Christians are "proper nouns" and have to be capitalized. How would you understand the thought behind someone using a reference to the religion of Islam if they did not capitalize the word? I would suspect that you would be highly indignant and rightful so.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Either your use of the English language is poor or you have shown you prejudice against two religions. The "nouns" Jews and Christians are "proper nouns" and have to be capitalized. How would you understand the thought behind someone using a reference to the religion of Islam if they did not capitalize the word? I would suspect that you would be highly indignant and rightful so.

I think you are reading too much into it. I was in a hurry and typing from a mobile. As for someone typing "muslim" or "Muslim", I wouldn't care. A lot of people post while on the go. And I am guilty of typing "muslim" myself lol
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Islam only says christians and jews get protection. Athiest, pagans, etc have none.

Assad, so, do you support esmith's hypothesis that "they knew exactly what they wanted in their so called constitution and it was not religious freedom, equality for all, or freedom as understood in most countries." ?

Why does Egypt even bother trying to ratify anything like a bill of rights if the real goal is to enshrine Islamic theocracy, in your opinion (IF that is the real goal)?

One last question Assad -- aside from your belief that Islam teaches atheists, pagans, etc. have no legal protections, what is your personal feeling about this: do you personally feel that is just? I'm an atheist, for instance: would you feel okay with me being censored because I'm not one of the protected types if I were an Egyptian? (I know this question gets on a personal level but I'm not going to be offended, I'm just curious as to what your personal take on this is)
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I have a question protecting from what?

From the English translation here (The 2012 Constitution of Egypt, Translated by Nivien Saleh, with Index | Nivien Saleh):


"Article 43
The freedom of belief is inviolable.

The state guarantees the right to practice one’s religious rites and establish places of worship for the heavenly religions. Details are specified by law."

So, according to Egypt's Constitution, only Jews, Christians, and Muslims have protection for the rights to practice their religious rites and establish places of worship for themselves.

Why can't Baha'i, Zoroastrians, and whoever else also have protected civil liberties for their religious rites or to establish places of worship for themselves?
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Assad, so, do you support esmith's hypothesis that "they knew exactly what they wanted in their so called constitution and it was not religious freedom, equality for all, or freedom as understood in most countries." ?
I don't know, so I can not comment.

Why does Egypt even bother trying to ratify anything like a bill of rights if the real goal is to enshrine Islamic theocracy, in your opinion (IF that is the real goal)?
I don't know why o what they want. But the way I see it is there are two types of political Islamist. One is the type who will paticipate in democracy in order to influence it to get closest to being Islamic. While the second type is one who doesn't and fights to bring khalifa. Examples would be possibly MB as compared to say IRIS or Jabhat Al-Nusra.

One last question Assad -- aside from your belief that Islam teaches atheists, pagans, etc. have no legal protections, what is your personal feeling about this: do you personally feel that is just? I'm an atheist, for instance: would you feel okay with me being censored because I'm not one of the protected types if I were an Egyptian? (I know this question gets on a personal level but I'm not going to be offended, I'm just curious as to what your personal take on this is)
This is very personal, as my mother can be classed as a pagan. But this is what Allah(swt) decreed. They, unike the Jews and Christians (look, I capitalized!:eek: ), they are ineligable for protection
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
This is very personal, as my mother can be classed as a pagan. But this is what Allah(swt) decreed. They, unike the Jews and Christians (look, I capitalized!:eek: ), they are ineligable for protection

Regardless of what you're *commanded* to do, do you personally think it's unfair for people not to be able to have their own opinions and beliefs without being oppressed for it?
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Does it need to be fair? It is not obligated to protect them, and their opinions are best to themselves in such country. In an Islamic country, it is not okay.

TO put it in perspective;

Do you think it is okay for a muslim to preach jihad in America?
 

esmith

Veteran Member
One last question Assad -- aside from your belief that Islam teaches atheists, pagans, etc. have no legal protections, what is your personal feeling about this: do you personally feel that is just? I'm an atheist, for instance: would you feel okay with me being censored because I'm not one of the protected types if I were an Egyptian? (I know this question gets on a personal level but I'm not going to be offended, I'm just curious as to what your personal take on this is)

This is very personal, as my mother can be classed as a pagan. But this is what Allah(swt) decreed. They, unike the Jews and Christians (look, I capitalized!:eek: ), they are ineligable for protection

It appears that Assad has used the time honored political means of answering your question by not answering your question. However, if you read between the lines, as you do with most politicians answers, his answer would be he has no problem with you being ostracized or for that matter persecuted for your personal beliefs or non-beliefs.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
I did answer. It is what Allah decreed. Therefore I can not speak against it and must accept it.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Does it need to be fair? It is not obligated to protect them, and their opinions are best to themselves in such country. In an Islamic country, it is not okay.

TO put it in perspective;

Do you think it is okay for a muslim to preach jihad in America?

Let me answer that by the following: From What is Jihad a explanation by Huda
The word Jihad stems from the Arabic root word J-H-D, which means "strive." Other words derived from this root include "effort," "labor," and "fatigue." Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution.
Also from the same reference
Islam never tolerates unprovoked aggression from its own side; Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an not to begin hostilities, embark on any act of aggression, violate the rights of others, or harm the innocent. Even hurting or destroying animals or trees is forbidden. War is waged only to defend the religious community against oppression and persecution, because the Qur'an says that "persecution is worse than slaughter" and "let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (Qur'an 2:190-193). Therefore, if non-Muslims are peaceful or indifferent to Islam, there is no justified reason to declare war on them.
Therefor in accordance with the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights there would be no reason for a Muslim to preach Jihad against the United States. It would also appear the beliefs or non-beliefs, according to the Qur'an, must be protected (highlighted above). Therefor would your statement in Post #4
Islam only says christians and jews get protection. Athiest, pagans, etc have none.
Is incorrect? Of course I might be interpreting what I referenced to be incorrect. Is it?
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Let me answer that by the following: From What is Jihad a explanation by Huda
Also from the same reference
Therefor in accordance with the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights there would be no reason for a Muslim to preach Jihad against the United States. It would also appear the beliefs or non-beliefs, according to the Qur'an, must be protected (highlighted above). Therefor would your statement in Post #4 Is incorrect? Of course I might be interpreting what I referenced to be incorrect. Is it?
Well for one, in regards to Jihad against America, you did qoute " War is waged only to defend the religious community against oppression and persecution," Which is what they do say. Ever lisiton to Imam Anwar Al Awlaki or Sheikh Usama bin Laden, may Allah have mercy on them both.

I am not saying I personally agree or support them

But that is what they cite. The oppression and persecution of Muslims in the Middle East by the US forces.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
Of course I might be interpreting what I referenced to be incorrect. Is it?
In an islamic government, specifically a khalifate, only Jews and Chrisians can pay jizya tax.

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.[ At-Tawbah:29]
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Well for one, in regards to Jihad against America, you did qoute " War is waged only to defend the religious community against oppression and persecution," Which is what they do say. Ever lisiton to Imam Anwar Al Awlaki or Sheikh Usama bin Laden, may Allah have mercy on them both.

I am not saying I personally agree or support them

But that is what they cite. The oppression and persecution of Muslims in the Middle East by the US forces.

So, are you attempting to say that here in the United States that those that practice the religion of Islam are persecuted. If so, please identify time, place, and the persecution that was perpetrated. As far as your question, the answer is no. I did not listen or would have listened to Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, Che Guevara, Idi Amin or any others that advocated the killing of innocents to further their ideology. It appears by your statement that you may not personally agree with them but you do not renounce what they advocate.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
So, are you attempting to say that here in the United States that those that practice the religion of Islam are persecuted. If so, please identify time, place, and the persecution that was perpetrated.

Well there is spying on by Feds. Public suspicion and hatred.
But to be fair Esmith, reread what I wrote. I said there is persecution in the Middle East of Muslims. Being bombed by Americans. Being invaded by Americans. Colonized. Having puppet dictators springing up.

As Imam Anwar AlAwlaki said in his last message to America which went roughly, 'Do you expect to be able to ruin thousands of lives and not get slapped back?'
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Well there is spying on by Feds. Public suspicion and hatred.
But to be fair Esmith, reread what I wrote. I said there is persecution in the Middle East of Muslims. Being bombed by Americans. Being invaded by Americans. Colonized. Having puppet dictators springing up.

As Imam Anwar AlAwlaki said in his last message to America which went roughly, 'Do you expect to be able to ruin thousands of lives and not get slapped back?'

You appear to be attempting to sidetrack the question that started this:

Do you think it is okay for a muslim to preach jihad in America?
I thought I answered your question, but just in case you didn't understand my answer "It is no". Now, do you think it is okay for a Muslim to preach jihad in the United States and if so why?
 
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