sex education

[Sunstone]

Failure to give a child a fact based sexuality education should probably be seen as endangering the community, and punished accordingly, since children who have not been given a fact based sexuality education are more likely to get themselves and others into trouble than children who have been given a fact based sexuality education.

 

[Falvlun]

Now now guys, don't attack without seeing how I carefully worded the phrase please.I said my birth control method wins hands down for its prevention properties, meaning if both methods were used, mine would win. I did not say my method wins hands down if not used. I worded it purposely so you could not attack
failure.....

So... your method works best only in carefully worded debates on the internet. Forgive me for preferring the method that works better in actual populations of teenagers.

 

[Lady B]

Failure to give a child a fact based sexuality education should probably be seen as endangering the community, and punished accordingly, since children who have not been given a fact based sexuality education are more likely to get themselves and others into trouble than children who have been given a fact based sexuality education.

Sunstone, I don't disagree with you, but who would be punished in your scenario? the government or the parents? I think the parents because I feel that is their responsibility .I also do not blame the schools when the kids do get in trouble, I blame the parents,I blame me.

 

[Me Myself]

Let's not forget we are discussing children here and not consentual adult situations.

Pff, no we are not. I am sorry, a 14 year old is not a child. If you wish call him a teenager, but that´s just not a child. They dont look like children and they dont think like children and they certainly do not feel like children.

My personal beliefs aside adults have a hard enough time dealing with sexuality and emotions outside of committed relationships. How then do we expect our kids to handle it ? Some have said abstinence is unhealthy, how exactly? Sex is more then risks and protection of risks, it is emotional, hormonal, mental and physical. Teenagers have yet to prove it functional, and healthy and free of emotional pain and mental anguish. If they just wait until their minds become developed enough to view both the pros and cons of a sexual liaison, perhaps there will not be as much teen suicide, murder, abandoned babies in garbage cans etc..I don't see passing out condoms and tesing them on bananas is helping the real emotional issues with our kids, but I see good council, responsible parents and encouragement in abstinence could go further.

As I said, I am all for saying that abstinence is the best way to avoid the dangers of sex in a sex ed class, at the start of every class if you wish. But then the rest of the class needs to be about how to avoid all risks when you are indeed having sex, because most "kids" will not avoid sex anyways. They need to know how to use a condom properly in as most situations as possible. Know how to keep a condom in safe places so it doesnt get holes or lowers its accuracy, they most know about the other anticonceptive methods available, etc.

About the real emotional issues, that´s what parents are for. Schools are t give knowledge. Fathers and mothers are to teach the kid how to use it (or not) and how to balance it all out and to be there for them.

School will not replace a parent. What it does need to do is to give knowledge. As it is it´s function, and the teen´s right.

 

[Lady B]

So... your method works best only in carefully worded debates on the internet. Forgive me for preferring the method that works better in actual populations of teenagers.

actually in the post I was carefully wording my reply, I was being a bratt that is all.

 

[Me Myself]

Sunstone, I don't disagree with you, but who would be punished in your scenario? the government or the parents? I think the parents because I feel that is their responsibility .I also do not blame the schools when the kids do get in trouble, I blame the parents,I blame me.

This is who I "blame" :

1-The kid

2- Parents

3-Friends

4-School

5- Society.

Although each case will be it´s own case. Generally, all the mentioned factors come into place. 4 can be perfect, and if one fail, it is still going to be failure.

 

[Lady B]

This is who I "blame" :

1-The kid

2- Parents

3-Friends

4-School

5- Society.

Although each case will be it´s own case. Generally, all the mentioned factors come into place. 4 can be perfect, and if one fail, it is still going to be failure.

Ok then, If parents are number 2 on your list then you see them as more responsible then number 4 on your list. Good we agree. So then why are parents who will be subjected to punishment for failing,(per sunstones theory) not be given the authority to control how their children are taught and when ? I am sorry but I am not of the mindset that it takes a village to raise my child. Again I do not disagree that kids be taught risks and preventions, but with parental consent, knowledge and involvement.

I disagree on your definition of age considered to be child/adult. A teen in my view is a child, and adult while subjective is when she or he has reached the age or maturity to make his or her own decisions. Teenagers as a whole do not meet these requirements and should not be given the burden of adulthood status by age factors alone.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sunstone, I don't disagree with you, but who would be punished in your scenario? the government or the parents?

It seems to me that the teenagers are the one to suffer the most when given insufficient warning about the decisions and dangers they have to face. Finding someone to blame after the damage is done shouldn't even be an issue.

I think the parents because I feel that is their responsibility.

Trouble is, that solves nothing.

I also do not blame the schools when the kids do get in trouble, I blame the parents,I blame me.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ok then, If parents are number 2 on your list then you see them as more responsible then number 4 on your list. Good we agree. So then why are parents who will be subjected to punishment for failing,(per sunstones theory) not be given the authority to control how their children are taught and when ?

"Punished for failing"?

You got that wrong. They should not be allowed to fail that seriously in the first place. No society that cares for itself can afford to leave children so deeply vulnerable to the shortcomings of parents that should know better.

I have no idea what that "punishment" would be, but it is pointless anyway.

I am sorry but I am not of the mindset that it takes a village to raise my child. Again I do not disagree that kids be taught risks and preventions, but with parental consent, knowledge and involvement.

Unless you live in a glass dome or something similar - and your sons and daughters voluntarily choose to live likewise away from larger society - I fear that is simply not enough.

I disagree on your definition of age considered to be child/adult. A teen in my view is a child, and adult while subjective is when she or he has reached the age or maturity to make his or her own decisions.

So you think teenagers are not making their own decisions?

Teenagers as a whole do not meet these requirements and should not be given the burden of adulthood status by age factors alone.

That... is just not a realistic expectation.

 

[Me Myself]

Ok then, If parents are number 2 on your list then you see them as more responsible then number 4 on your list. Good we agree. So then why are parents who will be subjected to punishment for failing,(per sunstones theory) not be given the authority to control how their children are taught and when ?

Who said I was agreeing 100% with Sunstone? He rocks, but we don´t agree on everything, nor I think we need to.

All factors there have a role. The only indispensable factor is the person (kid, teen, adult you name it)

Parents don´t hold unlimited power over their kids nor they should. You see how the kid is up there in the ladder? He will need info to do whatever he does. If the parents wont provide the info he will turn on friends and other sources of info. Schools need to give info so that parents and friends dont give bad info that messes with his head. Or just in case the kid wont even try to listen to his parents.

But I think we agreed on sex education classes, or did we not? I am advocating classes that give info. Including the real piece of info that is that abstinence is the best way of prevention, but also including all the info about how to have sex when they do, so they can do it in a responsible and safe manner for them and others involved.

Again I do not disagree that kids be taught risks and preventions, but with parental consent, knowledge and involvement.

Ah! sometimes I read things while I am answering them

Well I disagree with you. All of us have the rights to an education. Before caring about the parent society must care about the person. He must be able to get information that is vital to his health and security, if the parent doesn´t want to give that info, that is his mistake, and one that the person doesn´t need to pay for.

I disagree on your definition of age considered to be child/adult. A teen in my view is a child, and adult while subjective is when she or he has reached the age or maturity to make his or her own decisions. Teenagers as a whole do not meet these requirements and should not be given the burden of adulthood status by age factors alone.

We all take decisions at all stags of our life. You are unable to take away their power of decision, so the very least you should do is inform them so their decisions are not major screw ups.

Besides, most women in your bible had sex way before 18 (and I am willing to bet before 16) . I am not at all against abstinence, but people have been having sex since teenhood for millennia.

We should stop uninformed, non consensual unhealthy sex. But there is a reason they dont look like kids anymore.

They are no longer so.

As I said: they dont feel like kids feel. They dont think like kids think, and they dont act as kids act.

It´s just real.

 

[Lady B]

Who said I was agreeing 100% with Sunstone? He rocks, but we don´t agree on everything, nor I think we need to.

All factors there have a role. The only indispensable factor is the person (kid, teen, adult you name it)

Parents don´t hold unlimited power over their kids nor they should. You see how the kid is up there in the ladder? He will need info to do whatever he does. If the parents wont provide the info he will turn on friends and other sources of info. Schools need to give info so that parents and friends dont give bad info that messes with his head. Or just in case the kid wont even try to listen to his parents.

But I think we agreed on sex education classes, or did we not? I am advocating classes that give info. Including the real piece of info that is that abstinence is the best way of prevention, but also including all the info about how to have sex when they do, so they can do it in a responsible and safe manner for them and others involved.



Ah! sometimes I read things while I am answering them

Well I disagree with you. All of us have the rights to an education. Before caring about the parent society must care about the person. He must be able to get information that is vital to his health and security, if the parent doesn´t want to give that info, that is his mistake, and one that the person doesn´t need to pay for.



We all take decisions at all stags of our life. You are unable to take away their power of decision, so the very least you should do is inform them so their decisions are not major screw ups.

Besides, most women in your bible had sex way before 18 (and I am willing to bet before 16) . I am not at all against abstinence, but people have been having sex since teenhood for millennia.

We should stop uninformed, non consensual unhealthy sex. But there is a reason they dont look like kids anymore.

They are no longer so.

As I said: they dont feel like kids feel. They dont think like kids think, and they dont act as kids act.

It´s just real.

I mostly agree with you and wasn't even trying to debate you too much I won't get into a word play with child kids teens children, I will just say while my children are my sole responsability, I consider them my children, when they become of an age or maturity to make their own decisions they will become well my children but adults. So I have one child and one adult child I guess....

 

[PolyHedral]

My personal beliefs aside adults have a hard enough time dealing with sexuality and emotions outside of committed relationships.

Might this be because the vast majority don't know what they're doing?

If they just wait until their minds become developed enough to view both the pros and cons of a sexual liaison, perhaps there will not be as much teen suicide, murder, abandoned babies in garbage cans etc..

Regardless of their "development", you seem to be proposing avoiding teaching them those pros and cons. No amount of intelligence lets you divine information from nowhere.

I don't see passing out condoms and tesing them on bananas is helping the real emotional issues with our kids, but I see good council, responsible parents and encouragement in abstinence could go further.

An unfortunate fraction of parents are not responsible enough, and there are many conceivable scenarios where abstinence is not the best action. (compared to e.g. safe sex)

Also, Lady B, you seem to have skipped over this post:

What is wrong with correctly managed promiscuity?

Could you answer the question, please?

 

[Draka]

I don't see what's wrong with providing thorough sex education in schools and when speaking of safety and prevention encouraging children to wait until older and more mature to handle the consequences as an adult while also teaching them about effective birth control methods.

Honestly now, it is better to wait until older and more capable to handle the possible consequences sex brings before having sex. Not just the physical but the mental and emotional as well. That's just logical. If a teen understands that, all the better. We don't have to be ruled by our hormones, no matter what some people say. While true that things happen and some people give in to them, that is where the teaching about effective birth control comes in.

I don't think that just saying "don't have sex" is ever going to pass as any "program". Complete sex education, as was described in the OP (which already goes on in most schools I am aware of anyway), with recommendations to abstain as long as possible and information about birth control methods available for those who find themselves unable to abstain, seems okay to me.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Oh C'mon, cheap shot and irrational, I am talking about moral values that never harmed anyone and were and should be used as a protection for our children.Be honest with yourselves, you would not prefer your children wait till they are adults and enter into a committed relationship before they have sex?

Not a cheap shot, simple truth. I find your views antiquated and potentially harmful and I base my view on scientific study. What do you base your views on? Tradition and/or religions? I have a 10 year old daughter and I hope when she's ready she will be able to make her own decisions and feel free enough to enjoy her youth safely and responsibly without the inhibitions of our puritan ancestors.

Exactly my point ! I don't think the government should take any side ! It is true you and I will never agree, so why is your way being excepted and or proposed and mine is not? It goes both ways, so leave govt./schools out of our moral values completely and we have a deal.

But you are asking the government to take a side, your side. Instead of teaching sex education as a science you want to take it out of school and preach abstinence as the first and best solution to sexual desire. I ask again, what scientific evidence do you have that this is truly the best solution?

 

[Rakhel]

Damn but I had a ****** up childhood.
I knew so much about sex ed that by the time the schools started their sex ed classes, there wasn't much they could teach me.
Between my mother's very frank conversation about sex, after having caught her and dad going at it, my aunt having sex behind a door that had a peep hole, and her friends and my father leaving all sorts of books, mags and videos laying around, I thought I was more well versed in the areas of having sex than even my teachers. Did that lead to promiscuity in my teen years? I must be the exception, because I was almost prudish about what I wore(sweater vests ).
My oldest is the same where it comes to what she wears(no sweater vests Baruch HaShem), and she is highly critical of other girls in their dress, and attitude towards sex.
As for Birth control. Does birth control say, "GO on! Have sex!"? No. I don't think so. Kids were having sex when I was a teen without condoms being given freely. I had two school friends that got pregnant.(one kept the pregnancy, the other aborted)
Kids here in nyc are getting pregnant faster, and younger, than the schools can keep up. The director of the DOE got fired last year when she made a comment about the rate of teenage births. This year, they are thinking about offering PlanB(the morning after pill) free. Parents are having a fit about it. Not so much that it is being offered, but that it is being offered without parent's consent.(the schools send one of those Opt-out forms).

 

[Me Myself]

But you are asking the government to take a side, your side. Instead of teaching sex education as a science you want to take it out of school and preach abstinence as the first and best solution to sexual desire. I ask again, what scientific evidence do you have that this is truly the best solution?

To be fair, she does have a point.

(unless I understood incorrectly) she is saying that abstinence is the best way to avoid undesired sexual risks, but that the sex ed classes should not only say this, but should also teach about all the sex ed subjects that students are required to know. Even if they started each class with "the best way to avoid sexual risks is to avoid sex altogether" and ended it saying the same, it would still just be saying something that is objectively true, and that is worthy of being stressed.

As long as they don´t suppress the other information abut it, there is nothing wrong about simply saying the obvious reality that by not having sex you have a lesser risk of having a baby than by using a condom. It is just part of the complete exposition to the subject. Actually, it would be completely weird that they wouldn´t say so.

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone, I don't disagree with you, but who would be punished in your scenario? the government or the parents? I think the parents because I feel that is their responsibility .I also do not blame the schools when the kids do get in trouble, I blame the parents,I blame me.

If a person in a position of authority knowingly gives a kid false or misleading information about sex or sexual matters, then I think at the very least that person should be open for a civil suit to be brought against them for malpractice. So, for instance, if a teacher, or if a person representing themselves as an authority on the subject to the child, knowingly gives the child false or misleading information, I think it should be legal to sue that person. I might make an exception for parents, unless the parents were claiming special or expert authority.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

To be fair, she does have a point.

(unless I understood incorrectly) she is saying that abstinence is the best way to avoid undesired sexual risks, but that the sex ed classes should not only say this, but should also teach about all the sex ed subjects that students are required to know. Even if they started each class with "the best way to avoid sexual risks is to avoid sex altogether" and ended it saying the same, it would still just be saying something that is objectively true, and that is worthy of being stressed.

As long as they don´t suppress the other information abut it, there is nothing wrong about simply saying the obvious reality that by not having sex you have a lesser risk of having a baby than by using a condom. It is just part of the complete exposition to the subject. Actually, it would be completely weird that they wouldn´t say so.

Again I am not opposed to an optional class focused on health risks and not encouraging the kids to explore their sexuality at a young age. I am strongly opposed to a manditory sex education and passing out birth control in schools. I would not be opposed to a health clinic on school grounds or in a district where teens can go seek out testing and parent approved bc. But I would wish that all these programs available would push first abstinence,and parental consent be required for any measures that do not revolve around abstinence.

I understand her to be saying that abstinence should be taught as the first and best solution to any sexual desire and I disagree with that. I think abstinence should be discussed as one of many sexual paths to pursue but, as I believe it is unhealthy and extremely unlikely to be chosen by the majority of teenagers and young adults, I do not think it should receive any extra emphasis.

 

[Lady B]

Also, Lady B, you seem to have skipped over this post:

Could you answer the question, please?
What is wrong with correctly managed promiscuity?

I cannot answer that because we are dealing with teenagers and how is promiscuity possibly properly managed ? I have worked with teenagers in crisis situations after promiscuity and I fail to see a success story. Maybe you could define what a properly managed promiscuity looks like?

 

[no-body]

The only way abstinence would truly work on teens is if you insulated them and placed them in a bubble. They would still get together and figure something out even if they knew nothing. Insulating kids lead to all sorts of a different set of problems--they will have wasted their child hood not being kids and develop social and personality problems.

But hey at least they won't have sex... that is until they run away to college (or just the streets if you don't give them that option) and try every deviant, dangerous and perverted thing just to spite you.