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Some questions about God?

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Some questions about God?


Does God live vicariously through his Creation?


Does God live a life, separate to that of his creation?
Does God have companions outside of his creation?
Does God have interests outside of his creation?


Is God's Creation larger than himself?
Does God's creation include anything that he did not create himself?
Is our God's creation established within a larger creation not of his making?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
My personal Hindu influenced view:

Does God live vicariously through his Creation? Yes


Does God live a life, separate to that of his creation?Everything that is is his creation and his creation is never separate from him. But yes, he does exist beyond just our universe as well as within it.

Does God have companions outside of his creation? nothing is not himself. God is his own infinite companionship

Does God have interests outside of his creation? any interest that is manifest is his own creation. He is the cause of all causes. There can be nothing before or independent therefore how can he ave an interest separate from his creation?


Is God's Creation larger than himself? his creation is his own self, which is infinite

Does God's creation include anything that he did not create himself? No. That is not logically possible if everything in existence is God himself

Is our God's creation established within a larger creation not of his making? No. If something came before or independently, he would not be God by definition.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
My personal Hindu influenced view:

Does God live vicariously through his Creation? Yes


Does God live a life, separate to that of his creation?Everything that is is his creation and his creation is never separate from him. But yes, he does exist beyond just our universe as well as within it.

Does God have companions outside of his creation? nothing is not himself. God is his own infinite companionship

Does God have interests outside of his creation? any interest that is manifest is his own creation. He is the cause of all causes. There can be nothing before or independent therefore how can he ave an interest separate from his creation?


Is God's Creation larger than himself? his creation is his own self, which is infinite

Does God's creation include anything that he did not create himself? No. That is not logically possible if everything in existence is God himself

Is our God's creation established within a larger creation not of his making? No. If something came before or independently, he would not be God by definition.

Even if God is his own creation there could be other gods and other Creations.
An infinity does not preclude another infinity.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is my understand that there exists nothing outside God's creation. It is the only one I know how to answer. It is learned from Bible reading.
Mark 12:32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him."

Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

1 Corinthians 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Exodus 8:10 "Tomorrow," Pharaoh said. Moses replied, "It will be as you say, so that you may know there is no one like the LORD our God.

Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I cannot really answer your questions because they make some background assumptions about the nature of the gods that are not part of my theistic angle. Namely, assuming that the gods are separate from creation. To me, they are not. The gods are the world, and the world is the gods.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I suspect people do not usually think in these terms about God.
That in itself make the questions interesting to think about.

It is easy to say that God is omni-everything so we can not think about it further.
However the nature of God is not unthinkable, even if much may be unknowable. (there is a difference.)
Some will hide behind scripture or tradition and won't even try.
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I cannot really answer your questions because they make some background assumptions about the nature of the gods that are not part of my theistic angle. Namely, assuming that the gods are separate from creation. To me, they are not. The gods are the world, and the world is the gods.


Your own assumptions beg their own questions.

Are you saying you never think about the nature of your Gods?
What about the rest of the universe.?
If the Gods are the world, can they converse and interact with each other?
how do they establish who does what?
Can they have an individual identity?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
It is my understand that there exists nothing outside God's creation. It is the only one I know how to answer. It is learned from Bible reading.

Bible quotes only take you so far, and never have covered the questions I put.
It is not irreligious or blasphemous to think about the nature of God.
To do so, stretches your imagination , perhaps to places it does not want to go.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
My personal Hindu influenced view:

Does God live vicariously through his Creation? Yes


Does God live a life, separate to that of his creation?Everything that is is his creation and his creation is never separate from him. But yes, he does exist beyond just our universe as well as within it.

Does God have companions outside of his creation? nothing is not himself. God is his own infinite companionship

Does God have interests outside of his creation? any interest that is manifest is his own creation. He is the cause of all causes. There can be nothing before or independent therefore how can he ave an interest separate from his creation?


Is God's Creation larger than himself? his creation is his own self, which is infinite

Does God's creation include anything that he did not create himself? No. That is not logically possible if everything in existence is God himself

Is our God's creation established within a larger creation not of his making? No. If something came before or independently, he would not be God by definition.

Think about the posability that there is more than one universe.?
And more than one God?
Would they have an interaction?
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bible quotes only take you so far, and never have covered the questions I put.
It is not irreligious or blasphemous to think about the nature of God.
To do so, stretches your imagination , perhaps to places it does not want to go.

The answer for me is God who has the name spelled YHWH and who is called Allah by very many people is The Most High. There exists nothing more, better, more real here in our universe or in any other universe. ALL things are created by The Most High. Better?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
The answer for me is God who has the name spelled YHWH and who is called Allah by very many people is The Most High. There exists nothing more, better, more real here in our universe or in any other universe. ALL things are created by The Most High. Better?

So what does he do?
How does he spend eternity?

He can hardly concentrate eternity and all his immense abilities on a minor species, on a planet of a small solar system nearly lost on the spiral arm of a lesser galaxy in his universe.
he must have other concerns?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Some questions about God?


Does God live vicariously through his Creation?


Does God live a life, separate to that of his creation?
Does God have companions outside of his creation?
Does God have interests outside of his creation?


Is God's Creation larger than himself?
Does God's creation include anything that he did not create himself?
Is our God's creation established within a larger creation not of his making?

1) Yes.

2) Hmm, very interesting, don't know.

3) Nothing exists outside of His creation.

4) Creation is still happening so, in a way, future universes, since they do not exist yet, are an idea of something that is currently outside of all creation but the idea itself remains inside creation.

5) Not possible.

6) Sort of. It depends on how you view the word creation. A man can throw paint blobs at a canvas and some consider that "creating". Only God creates, all other beings change what already exists, we mix and match, that's it. Now, there are random elements built in to the universe and into beings so someone can come up with a unique mixture of materials that has never been seen before in all the universe but that is not creation because they did not form the particles and atoms from nothing that they used to assemble it.

7) No.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So what does he do?
How does he spend eternity?

He can hardly concentrate eternity and all his immense abilities on a minor species, on a planet of a small solar system nearly lost on the spiral arm of a lesser galaxy in his universe.
he must have other concerns?

I being a believer in Christ the Son of God cannot believe human kind is a "minor species". If I did not know Joshua I would say we are minor, almost nothing at all. I have met Joshua and now I cannot believe I am nothing at all. Do you know who Joshua is?

God's other concerns? I am sure. I do not know what they are.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Your own assumptions beg their own questions.

Are you saying you never think about the nature of your Gods?

Hah, not at all. Just that the way your particular questions were phrased do not apply well to certain theological viewpoints, such as my own.

What about the rest of the universe.?
If the Gods are the world, can they converse and interact with each other?
how do they establish who does what?
Can they have an individual identity?

For the first, I don't concern myself much with the sacred outside of my backyard and everyday experience. I center on gratitude and honoring what is right around me instead of "way out there" so to speak.

I don't claim to know all the nuances of how various aspects of reality (the gods) interact with each other, but we can learn a lot from science. We can learn about the relationships between Ocean, Cloud, and Rain for instance in the hydrologic cycle. The purpose of each aspect of reality is intrinsic to its nature (similar to animism). You can say they have individual identities - as I'm definitely more of a hard polytheist - but the various aspects all relate to each other. There's several different ways I look at things overall, as whatever I come up with is a map of the territory.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Hah, not at all. Just that the way your particular questions were phrased do not apply well to certain theological viewpoints, such as my own.



For the first, I don't concern myself much with the sacred outside of my backyard and everyday experience. I center on gratitude and honoring what is right around me instead of "way out there" so to speak.

I don't claim to know all the nuances of how various aspects of reality (the gods) interact with each other, but we can learn a lot from science. We can learn about the relationships between Ocean, Cloud, and Rain for instance in the hydrologic cycle. The purpose of each aspect of reality is intrinsic to its nature (similar to animism). You can say they have individual identities - as I'm definitely more of a hard polytheist - but the various aspects all relate to each other. There's several different ways I look at things overall, as whatever I come up with is a map of the territory.

So you are talking about "Local" Gods Rather than Gods of the universe. Much as the Druids and early Greeks and Romans.?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I being a believer in Christ the Son of God cannot believe human kind is a "minor species". If I did not know Joshua I would say we are minor, almost nothing at all. I have met Joshua and now I cannot believe I am nothing at all. Do you know who Joshua is?

God's other concerns? I am sure. I do not know what they are.

Compared to thje universe and eternity, we are very small indeed. But not it seems insignificant.
Do you have trouble speculating that we might share God and the afterlife with numerous other species that have gone before, or are still to come?

The Joshua I know was the son of Nun and one of Moses spies sent to search out the Promised Land. I am sure there are, and have been many others.....
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Joshua is Jesus' name before they changed it. I would not have changed it. I do not know who Jesus is. Joshua leads God's people to the promise after Moses. Joshua Messiah leads God's people to the promise after YHWH. It's a mental thing.
 

Krishna Chaitanya

krishnadas
Hi,

That's a thoughtful question for any sincere seeker! I will answer mostly based on logic and the ideas described in the oldest scriptures (i.e. the Vedas - as there are 1, what I am associated with from quite some time and 2, they contain lot more details available about these questions).

It may be long, but I am positive that it will help you develop more understanding below esp. if you are open minded.

Firstly, I assume that 'his creation' is referring to what we are experiencing as reality currently. i.e. the material creation. 'We' refers to all living beings in the material creation consisting of several multidimensional universes (our earthly beings perceive only three spatial dimensions plus one time dimension). But there exists a creation in a different realm (transcendental reality) which is beyond all hyperspaces of material universes - i.e the spiritual creation.

Some questions about God?


Does God live vicariously through his Creation?

Answer: He does not exist vicariously through his Creation, but it is true that he ALSO exists through his creation. In his material creation (where universes exist), God lives by exhibiting his creative and time potency - the intelligence and the influence of time around us.
Incomplete, but useful Analogy: Though it may appear that the traffic lights are going on automatically for a child, but in reality there is a human controller behind it. The controller is using his skill of actuating the lights by intelligent algorithms, he doesn't need to exhibit his other skills for that purpose.

Secondly, he pervades his spiritual creation (which is perceived by us when we realize that we are the soul) by himself and his expansions for giving and experiencing happiness in his relation with all of us (spiritual beings, alias souls). When we realize this, surrender to him and go back to the spiritual creation, we will experience this real bliss - the bliss of love by selfless service. It may be difficult to conceive this matter at this point, but if you have tried selflessy (without ANY motives other than that you wanna please the other person), you can get a glimpse of unlimited pleasure what I am talking about. Its beyond sensual, emotional, intellectual, egoistic and mental satisfaction. If these are the type of pleasure one gets by realizing and serving GOD, then he/she stops service as soon as these perks are not provided. But if that service is in relation to spiritual souls with GOD as the PIVOT, it transcends all other pleasures and is the culmination - it is selfless, genuine and spiritual. This is because it is satisfying to our'SELF' (soul) and not just our senses/mind/intelligence/ego etc which are different from ourSELF.


Does God live a life, separate to that of his creation?

ANSWER: He lives a life separate to "THIS CREATION" (i.e. the material world where we live). This is because in "this creation", he does not need to use all his potency. Of course, he lives in own spiritual creation performing wonderful activities with his relations over there - enjoying and giving enjoyment to others. So, he is both separate and pervading the creation - this is called achintya bheda abheda philosophy in Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) that unifies the understanding of God amongst different conceptions and offers a comprehensive explanation.

From above analogy: Does the traffic controller have a life separate from the traffic controller?
Yes and NO. Yes because, as a person he has his personal life. NO because, he is no longer perceived as a traffic controller when he's home - he's just a husband, father etc. This analogy is limited in the sense that: GOD is NOT OBLIGED TO CREATE whereas the traffic controller is OBLIGED to perform his job. He does it out of his own free will.


Does God have companions outside of his creation?

Answer: Yes, outside the material creation, he lives with those beings (purified souls - we will also join when we become qualified) who are completely free from exploitative tendencies without having Lust, Anger, Greed, Pride, Envy & free from Illusion. Of course, in that relationship there are pure emotions of love as opposed to apparent nothingness as talked about by some.

Does God have interests outside of his creation?

Yes, God has interests outside "THIS CREATION" just like the traffic controller has interest in his personal life apart from work.

Is God's Creation larger than himself?

ANSWER: God can be seen simultaneously one and different from his creation. Its like asking: Is the sun bigger than sunshine? Well, depends on your perception - but fact remains, that sun is the source.

Does God's creation include anything that he did not create himself?

ANSWER: We tend to think of creation as being associated with time. This is because we are so long used to living in this material world running under the influence of the time potency of the almighty God. In the spiritual world, time exists, but it does not influence the beings - that is why there is no birth, old age, disease and death in spiritual world unlike this creation. Everyone is youthful and eternal there. Further, we should understand that time is UNDER THE CONTROL OF GOD. So, it is NOT true that he created all of us at SOME POINT OF TIME, but he is eternally expanding out of his will. Ask the question: When did the sunshine originate from sun? As soon as the sun is in existence. But in this case GOD exists ETERNALLY. Even material science also relates to the concept of eternity - but not complete though. Law of conservation of energy? It means that energy is eternally existing without being destroyed.

Is our God's creation established within a larger creation not of his making?

ANSWER: Firstly and Lastly, there is only one GOD who created everything. So, there is no question creation being separate from him. It is because his potency that gravity, light, heat is made possible (one could postulate by introducing gravitons blah blah, but ultimately the characteristic of all such particles of potency is a mere reflection of the lord's potency). In other words, the truth behind this material universe is NOT MATERIAL (very clear in BG 7.7), so any number of material experiments cannot understand the glory of GOD as the axiomatic limitations and scope of observation do not permit.

Just FYI: I am a follower of Bhagavad Gita and am convinced that the same almighty GOD is described in the scriptures - both Abrahamic and dharmic. These scriptures also mention that his glory is unlimited. He is not limited to religions, regions, gender etc.

The dharmic as well as abrahamic conceptions talk about it. The Vedas give a detailed explanation of WHO HE IS, WHAT DOES HE DO, WHERE DOES HE LIVE, WHAT DOES HE LOOK LIKE, WHOM DOES HE EXPAND INTO AND WHY, WHY DOES HE CREATE etc. The abrahamic scriptures do not deny a spiritual form for him (they reject only the materialistic conception). Further, some conceptions describe only his impersonal all pervading potency, but the true scholars know the fact that if GOD is absolute, the he should be both PERSONAL as well as IMPERSONAL, as there is no meaning to completeness otherwise. If you believe in abrahamic evidence, you might want to read the following. They mention the personal form of God: "under His feet" (Exodus 24:10); "inscribed with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18); "the hand of the Lord" (Exodus 9:3); "the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 38:7); "the ears of the Lord" (Numbers 11:1). Ezekiel (1:26) describes God as having "the semblance of a human form." Such phrases permeate the biblical literature. Similarly, in the Quran there are references to "the face of your Lord" (055:027), "under My eye" (020:039), "under our eyes" (052:048) & (054:014), and "the hand of Allah" (048:010), (038:075) & (039:067).

The Vedic scriptures also indicate his personal identity: Vedanta-sutras (1.1.2, 1.1.5, 'Rasovaisah'), Mundaka Upanishad (1.1.6-7, 1.1.9), 'God in human like form' Bhagavad Gita (9.11, 10.8, 7.7) 'multiple potencies of him' Svetasvatara Upanishad (1.1, 5.4, 5.5, 6.6), 'eko bahunam' Katha Upanishad (2.2.13, 1.2.22), YajurVeda (N.Sukta v.5), Rg Veda Samhita, Mandala 10, Sukta 90, Maha Upanishad: I-1-4 and many more.

He is happy with some one calling him Jehovah (the self-existent one), ELOHIM (the powerful and mighty), Allah (God - referring to Generator, Operator and destroyer - describing the glory that is within our capacity to understand), Krishna (the all attractive one - containing all the potency in full, namely power, beauty, knowledge, wealth, fame, renunciation), Vishnu (the maintainer of creation), Rama (the supreme enjoyer) etc. All these names describe his various qualities and which ever is most appropriate for our level of understanding and conviction, we call him by that name and he reciprocates accordingly. It is only the people with incomplete, partial and bogus understanding of religion promote extremism and hatred, but the supreme lord is all loving.

Relation to traffic controller analogy: The same traffic controller is in office, he is called xyz by children, abc by relatives, qwe by wife etc. etc. So, its a completely personal relationship each having a sweet flavor (rasa) in itself in terms of the exchange between them.

When it comes to relation with God, we cannot call anyone and everyone as GOD. Some may be godly and saintly but not GOD. At the same time GOD expands into multiple forms in the same level of truth (tattva in sanskrit) and each of those forms are qualified to be addressed as GOD (avatar in sanskrit). I guess its enough detail for now :). Let me know if you have more questions.

Thanks for the nice question and wish you best regards for your spiritual practice. Hope that some will benefit to all of you... coz it took me few hrs to compile it.

Chaitanya
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So you are talking about "Local" Gods Rather than Gods of the universe. Much as the Druids and early Greeks and Romans.?

Well, some of them have domains or are patrons of things that extend beyond planet earth, but I don't concern myself with that. I also can't say if the gods I experience whose domains would hypothetically extend beyond planet earth actually do, because I haven't exactly visited any other planets. >_>

Some deities really are tied to the landscape, though. The spirit of a specific river only exists where that river flows (the otherworlds notwithstanding). I float back and forth between whether or not I regard many of the classical Pagan deities (e.g., Odin, Amaterasu, Hestia, and the like) to be local or regional rather than global. I've had experiences which support both interpretations. I don't have it all figured out by a long shot and do not expect to in my lifetime. What's important is to find a way of working that allows me to relate to what is around me and experience it with joy and gratitude. :D
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Hi,

That's a thoughtful question for any sincere seeker! I will answer mostly based on logic and the ideas described in the oldest scriptures (i.e. the Vedas[\I] - as there are 1, what I am associated with from quite some time and 2, they contain lot more details available about these questions).

It may be long, but I am positive that it will help you develop more understanding below esp. if you are open minded and are new to the dynamics of spirituality and God consciousness.



Just FYI: I am a follower of Bhagavad Gita and am convinced that the same almighty GOD is described in the scriptures - both Abrahamic and dharmic. These scriptures also mention that his glory is unlimited. He is not limited to religions, regions, gender etc.

The dharmic as well as abrahamic conceptions talk about it. The Vedas give a detailed explanation of WHO HE IS, WHAT DOES HE DO, WHERE DOES HE LIVE, WHAT DOES HE LOOK LIKE, WHOM DOES HE EXPAND INTO AND WHY, WHY DOES HE CREATE etc. The abrahamic scriptures do not deny a spiritual form for him (they reject only the materialistic conception). Further, some conceptions describe only his impersonal all pervading potency, but the true scholars know the fact that if GOD is absolute, the he should be both PERSONAL as well as IMPERSONAL, as there is no meaning to completeness otherwise. If you believe in abrahamic evidence, you might want to read the following. They mention the personal form of God: "under His feet" (Exodus 24:10); "inscribed with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18); "the hand of the Lord" (Exodus 9:3); "the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 38:7); "the ears of the Lord" (Numbers 11:1). Ezekiel (1:26) describes God as having "the semblance of a human form." Such phrases permeate the biblical literature. Similarly, in the Quran there are references to "the face of your Lord" (055:027), "under My eye" (020:039), "under our eyes" (052:048) & (054:014), and "the hand of Allah" (048:010), (038:075) & (039:067).

The Vedic scriptures also indicate his personal identity: Vedanta-sutras (1.1.2, 1.1.5, 'Rasovaisah'), Mundaka Upanishad (1.1.6-7, 1.1.9), 'God in human like form' Bhagavad Gita (9.11, 10.8, 7.7) 'multiple potencies of him' Svetasvatara Upanishad (1.1, 5.4, 5.5, 6.6), 'eko bahunam' Katha Upanishad (2.2.13, 1.2.22), YajurVeda (N.Sukta v.5), Rg Veda Samhita, Mandala 10, Sukta 90, Maha Upanishad: I-1-4 and many more.

He is happy with some one calling him Jehovah (the self-existent one), ELOHIM (the powerful and mighty), Allah (God - referring to Generator, Operator and destroyer - describing the glory that is within our capacity to understand), Krishna (the all attractive one - containing all the potency in full, namely power, beauty, knowledge, wealth, fame, renunciation), Vishnu (the maintainer of creation), Rama (the supreme enjoyer) etc. All these names describe his various qualities and which ever is most appropriate for our level of understanding and conviction, we call him by that name and he reciprocates accordingly. It is only the people with incomplete, partial and bogus understanding of religion promote extremism and hatred, but the supreme lord is all loving.

Relation to traffic controller analogy: The same traffic controller is in office, he is called xyz by children, abc by relatives, qwe by wife etc. etc. So, its a completely personal relationship each having a sweet flavor (rasa) in itself in terms of the exchange between them.

When it comes to relation with God, we cannot call anyone and everyone as GOD. Some may be godly and saintly but not GOD. At the same time GOD expands into multiple forms in the same level of truth (tattva in sanskrit) and each of those forms are qualified to be addressed as GOD (avatar in sanskrit). I guess its enough detail for now :). Let me know if you have more questions.

Thanks for the nice question and wish you best regards for your spiritual practice. Hope that some will benefit to all of you... coz it took me few hrs to compile it.

Chaitanya


Thank you for Your reply It is good to know Others "Can" think about these things.
As you have seen, that in most of the posts so far, people find thinking about God very difficult, as it eats into their pre-visualisation of him. It is like asking your boss personal questions.

However yours is a very old religion that has defined many difficult questions.

Most Christians will say what ever is in the "Bible" Just as will Muslims will say about the Quran. They forget that the relationship is between them and God. It is not about a particular religion and God.
Religions can be one of many paths toward God. But is a personal journey that you must take...

My questions were only an aid to thought. The answers them selves are not as important as the ideas.

I am sure you had to clear a few paths on the way to your answers.
So thank you....:)
The best way to learn is often to teach.
 
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