• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The grace of God, forgiveness and karma

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
My understanding of all this may be wrong, but isn't karma subject to being overridden by God? It seems that many or most of us think of karma as the first and foremost arbiter of our futures, with God taking a hands-off approach. I can't presently find the verse in the Bhagavad Gita, but I seem to recall Sri Krishna saying that not a blade of grass grows without His knowledge. And then there are the other verses that indicate that He takes an active role in running the universe and assisting in our salvation by His grace and His forgiveness of transgressions. If this is so, then we have a much closer relationship with God, that supercedes the laws of karma.

Having been raised Christian, I am used to the idea of God being personal and highly involved in our welfare and salvation (I was always a renegade :p), being very hard to offend and push away, much as we see Sri Krishna in Vaishnavism. I'm not sure I understand just when and where God steps in to ameliorate the effects of karma, based on popular belief that karma is the controlling factor. I prefer to think of God as constantly bestowing grace and forgiveness when the bhakta is sincere. I am thinking that God(dess) does as much as S/He can to give us grace and help to improve our station in life, thereby achieving a higher birth. Or if we reject that, then we fall down. Thoughts?

But then, of what avail is this detailed understanding of my manifestations to you, O Arjuna! Supporting this mighty universe with but one single fragment of My self, I remain unchanged and transcendent. 10.42

Though performing every kind of work always, he who has taken refuge in Me shall, by My grace, attain to the eternal and indestructible state of Moksha. 18.56

O scion of Bharata's clan! Seek refuge in [Me], making a total surrender of your being - body, mind and soul. By [My] grace you shall attain to supreme peace and the everlasting abode. 18.62.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Why would God override karma when He created it as a law? I see Grace as the outcome of dharma, and karma is just the methodology of that process.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
but is forgiven no less by God and will have been granted mercy and heaven ,by Grace

Sorry, no Christian heaven in Hinduism. 'Mercy' (sorry, not really clear on the term,) comes when karma is worked out by the individual, and its not mercy in the Christian sense, but as a natural evolution of the soul's progression back to God.
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
My understanding of all this may be wrong, but isn't karma subject to being overridden by God? It seems that many or most of us think of karma as the first and foremost arbiter of our futures, with God taking a hands-off approach. I can't presently find the verse in the Bhagavad Gita, but I seem to recall Sri Krishna saying that not a blade of grass grows without His knowledge. And then there are the other verses that indicate that He takes an active role in running the universe and assisting in our salvation by His grace and His forgiveness of transgressions. If this is so, then we have a much closer relationship with God, that supercedes the laws of karma.

Having been raised Christian, I am used to the idea of God being personal and highly involved in our welfare and salvation (I was always a renegade :p), being very hard to offend and push away, much as we see Sri Krishna in Vaishnavism. I'm not sure I understand just when and where God steps in to ameliorate the effects of karma, based on popular belief that karma is the controlling factor. I prefer to think of God as constantly bestowing grace and forgiveness when the bhakta is sincere. I am thinking that God(dess) does as much as S/He can to give us grace and help to improve our station in life, thereby achieving a higher birth. Or if we reject that, then we fall down. Thoughts?

But then, of what avail is this detailed understanding of my manifestations to you, O Arjuna! Supporting this mighty universe with but one single fragment of My self, I remain unchanged and transcendent. 10.42

Though performing every kind of work always, he who has taken refuge in Me shall, by My grace, attain to the eternal and indestructible state of Moksha. 18.56

O scion of Bharata's clan! Seek refuge in [Me], making a total surrender of your being - body, mind and soul. By [My] grace you shall attain to supreme peace and the everlasting abode. 18.62.

I don´t think that God forgives and give salvation. God IS indestructible and pure consciousnesses. What happens instead is that once we figure out that we are no different from God and that we are in fact THAT, then karma falls away. The reason karma affects us is because we identify with the body and matter instead of our real selves.

It´s like a child fighting over toys, it is extremely important to that child at that time but as he/she grows older he realizes that it doesn´t matter at all that he/she had the green car instead of the red car. It means nothing, they were both cars and you move on.

Maya
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Why would God override karma when He created it as a law?

I don't know, therein lies my confusion vis-a-vis the personal nature of the conversation in the Bhagavad Gita and general Vaishnava belief (at least in my understanding) that God is very close to us, and how karma is executed.

I see Grace as the outcome of dharma, and karma is just the methodology of that process.

It may be that. By our actions we are receiving or rejecting God's grace, the results being delivered by karma.

This is also something that stuck in my mind:

Vishishtadvaita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding Lord's mercy

Vadakalai View Some positive gesture is necessary on the part of the jeevatma to deserve the grace of God, because He can be deemed partial if He grants Moksha to all both deserving and undeserving.

Thenkalai View Lord's grace is spontaneous. He grants Moksha to anyone who accepts Him alone as the means to attain it and has the ripened desire to attain it.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don´t think that God forgives and give salvation. God IS indestructible and pure consciousnesses. What happens instead is that once we figure out that we are no different from God and that we are in fact THAT, then karma falls away. The reason karma affects us is because we identify with the body and matter instead of our real selves.

It´s like a child fighting over toys, it is extremely important to that child at that time but as he/she grows older he realizes that it doesn´t matter at all that he/she had the green car instead of the red car. It means nothing, they were both cars and you move on.

Maya

Excellent wisdom. I tried to give you points whatever they're called, but I guess I must have given you some recently. I must say though, that in certain Vaishnava schools., the concepts like these aren't that far from western ones. But I certainly think more along your lines.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't believe the Lord's grace (for moksha) is spontaneous. There is only one short cut. It's called hard work.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I don´t think that God forgives and give salvation. God IS indestructible and pure consciousnesses. What happens instead is that once we figure out that we are no different from God and that we are in fact THAT, then karma falls away. The reason karma affects us is because we identify with the body and matter instead of our real selves.

I think I'm coming from the saguna Brahman p.o.v., Brahman as the personal Vishnu/Narayana/Krishna, wherein Arjuna asks Krishna: "Therefore greeting Thee with my body stretched in prostration, I beseech Thee, O worshipful Lord, to be gracious unto me. Bear with me as a father with a son, as a friend with a friend, and as a lover with his beloved." 11.44
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I must say though, that in certain Vaishnava schools., the concepts like these aren't that far from western ones.

That they are closer to western concepts is true. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is heavy on the idea of Goloka and Vaikuntha, with grass, flowers, and eternal bliss ala Heaven in the western sense. I don't know if Gaudiya Vaishnavism was influenced by western thought.

I don't believe the Lord's grace (for moksha) is spontaneous. There is only one short cut. It's called hard work.

That's closer to the Vadakalai View that says, albeit softened by "some positive gesture", that there's work involved.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You're way beyond me. :) I have no idea what Goloka and Vaikuntha are. I'm too simple I guess.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, sorry... they are the abodes of Krishna (Go=cow loka=world) and Vishnu, respectively. I don't know how Vaikuntha translates. If I'm right, Goloka is a Gaudiya concept, while Vaikuntha is a general Vaishnava concept.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Oh, sorry... they are the abodes of Krishna (Go=cow loka=world) and Vishnu, respectively. I don't know how Vaikuntha translates. If I'm right, Goloka is a Gaudiya concept, while Vaikuntha is a general Vaishnava concept.


:) Oh sorry, did i say I cared enough that I wanted to actually know? Jist more words to confuse me further. ;)
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Jist more words to confuse me further. ;)

Why should you be any different than the rest of us? :D

Anyway, I knew I got the question in my o.p. from somewhere. I had read it before and it got conflated, buried, obfuscated, and confounded in the recesses of my mind (don't worry about those words... they just mean 'screwed up')...

Karma in Hinduism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (The role of divine forces).

Vedanta view
Followers of Vedanta, a leading practicing school of Hinduism in existence today, consider Ishvara, a personal supreme God, as playing that role.[13] According to the Vedanta view, a supreme God is ultimately the enforcer of karma but humans have the free will to choose good or evil.

In these theistic schools, karma is not seen merely as a law of cause and effect, a view espoused by Buddhism or Jainism, for example, but dependent on the will of a personal supreme God. Examples of a personal supreme God include Shiva in Shaivism or Vishnu in Vaishnavism. A good summary of this theistic view of karma is expressed by the following: "God does not make one suffer for no reason nor does He make one happy for no reason. God is very fair and gives you exactly what you deserve." [14] Thus, the theistic schools emphasize that karma is one explanation for the problem of human suffering; a soul reincarnates into an appropriate body, which is dependent on karma and this is said to explain why some persons never get to see the fruits of their actions in their lives and why some children die when they have committed no sin.[15] Thus, one must reap the fruits of one's personal karma and one may need to undergo multiple births, incarnating variously as plant, animal, or human. Such fruits of karma may be analogized to a bank (i.e., God) not letting a person be released from karma's effects until the bank account is settled.[15]

My understand from this, now, is that as you said, God created the laws of karma. I see it a step further in that He does not step back and let them run amok. According to this, He has a hand in adjudicating karma.
 

Maija

Active Member
My understand from this, now, is that as you said, God created the laws of karma. I see it a step further in that He does not step back and let them run amok. According to this, He has a hand in adjudicating karma.

I think that miracles occur because God is "breaking" the rules He has created, for every standard principle, God can create an exception to that rule in order to show Himself, reveal a point.

Why should He be subject to ANY rules?

So, I think that we should not rely on God rescuing us with grace from karma, but I think that it is definitely something God is CAPABLE of.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Janarayana=My understand from this, now, is that as you said, God created the laws of karma. I see it a step further in that He does not step back and let them run amok. According to this, He has a hand in adjudicating karma.

Well i do think Ishwar created Karma, but he does not have to intervene because everything a prefect being does is done perfectly, He does govern Karma or the Laws that make up Karma to be more precise.

I dont think he steps back, the Laws being eternal meaning she eternally governs the Laws, so in a indirect way Brahman does hand out our Karmas.
 

Atman

Member
Namaste all.

Sorry, no Christian heaven in Hinduism. 'Mercy' (sorry, not really clear on the term,) comes when karma is worked out by the individual, and its not mercy in the Christian sense, but as a natural evolution of the soul's progression back to God.
As has already been pointed out, an idea of Moksha similar to the Abrahamic notion of "heaven" is prevalent in almost all schools of Vaishnava Hinduism, but it is also worth noting this idea is also found in dualistic schools of Shaiva Hinduism (specifically the majority of schools in the Shaiva Siddhanta Sampradaya favor qualified non-dualism, and hold a notion of libertation in which the Jiva and Shiva still hold seperate identities from each other even after liberation is attained.)

Back to the original point of the thread
My understanding of all this may be wrong, but isn't karma subject to being overridden by God
Depends on how you look at it. Open up and read virtually any Purana, Agama, or other devotional text and we will find that by chanting the names, or mantra of a specific deity one burns away all karma, and becomes free from the cycle of samsara. However, some may argue that an individual making the very discovery of being able to free oneself from the effects of karma, was in fact as result of some good karma they have accumulated. To me though, this view of karma almost seems to negate the notion of free will, in which I am a firm believer.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that miracles occur because God is "breaking" the rules He has created, for every standard principle, God can create an exception to that rule in order to show Himself, reveal a point.

Why should He be subject to ANY rules?

So, I think that we should not rely on God rescuing us with grace from karma, but I think that it is definitely something God is CAPABLE of.

Those are good points. I've always said God can do anything He wants. It's only our human hubris that limits God.

Well i do think Ishwar created Karma, but he does not have to intervene because everything a prefect being does is done perfectly, He does govern Karma or the Laws that make up Karma to be more precise.

Yep, that's a good way to think of it. This goes back to the comment inthe excerpt that I posted, "God does not make one suffer for no reason nor does He make one happy for no reason. God is very fair and gives you exactly what you deserve." [14]

We used to say that it is inconceivable to the human mind that God can be just, in order to mete out proper "rewards or punishments" (it's a western view, I admit), and yet show unbounding mercy and love.

I dont think he steps back, the Laws being eternal meaning she eternally governs the Laws, so in a indirect way Brahman does hand out our Karmas.

That's what I've been thinking; hence my original query.

Further, if you wish to read this which i think is in simple terms of explaining Karma.

FAQ on Theory of Karma in Hinduism

Thanks for the link. I peeked at it, but will read it further.

Namaste all.

As has already been pointed out, an idea of Moksha similar to the Abrahamic notion of "heaven" is prevalent in almost all schools of Vaishnava Hinduism

I originally rebelled at the idea because I was distancing myself from everything Abrahamic. But it's not such a bad thing to look forward to. :)

but it is also worth noting this idea is also found in dualistic schools of Shaiva Hinduism (specifically the majority of schools in the Shaiva Siddhanta Sampradaya favor qualified non-dualism, and hold a notion of libertation in which the Jiva and Shiva still hold seperate identities from each other even after liberation is attained.)

This sounds like Vishishtadvaita or Achintya bhedAbheda tattva.

Back to the original point of the thread Depends on how you look at it. Open up and read virtually any Purana, Agama, or other devotional text and we will find that by chanting the names, or mantra of a specific deity one burns away all karma, and becomes free from the cycle of samsara. However, some may argue that an individual making the very discovery of being able to free oneself from the effects of karma, was in fact as result of some good karma they have accumulated. To me though, this view of karma almost seems to negate the notion of free will, in which I am a firm believer.

I keep forgetting where I've read it, and I was once called out on it, that Sri Krishna says He will grant instant moksha if His name is called out or He is remembered at the time of leaving the body. A little story sticks in my mind (I may have the story slightly mangled) is that an old shopkeeper on his deathbead was surrounded by his sons whom he named Gopala, Govinda and Narayana, to be sure to say at least one of the names of the Lord at time of death to achieve moksha.

When the old man opened his eyes for the last time he saw all three sons there. Instead of happily calling out their names, he said "who's taking care of the store!?" Then he expired. The moral being that he would not attain moksha because at the time of death, his thoughts were not on the Lord.

I wish I could remember where I found the info about instant moksha on remembering the Lord at death.

Btw, I also believe we have complete free will, God knowing the future notwithstanding. There was a heated thread on this a long while back. the o.p. seems never to have returned after playing the role of Torquemada.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
My understanding of all this may be wrong, but isn't karma subject to being overridden by God?

Very hard question. This is my take on it. Most people I have talked to when they describe a deep spiritual experience It seems not to come from their body mind complex that we call ourself (our Egos) These experiences are not from our minds they come from a deeper place. The work we do (sadhana) makes us crave Gods grace thats always there anyway, we just don't really desire it or just want it in very limited ways. The Darshana of the personal God is a very powerful karmic experience that naturally burns up much of your personal karma. Sadhana is also very powerful and counters bad karma.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
...The work we do (sadhana) makes us crave Gods grace thats always there anyway, we just don't really desire it or just want it in very limited ways. The Darshana of the personal God is a very powerful karmic experience that naturally burns up much of your personal karma. Sadhana is also very powerful and counters bad karma.

These are excellent thoughts, thanks. :) One of my favorite verses from the Bhagavad Gita (well, can one not have any favorites? ;)) is 18.65, which I think is a foundation for an upward spiral of attaining God: Bhagavad-Gita: Chapter 18, Verse 65 It makes you want to do more in service to God, which yields benefits.
 
Top