I Am A Christian!

[Me Myself]

your correct, It is very clear that this is indeed speaking of the roles of women in church. timothy 2. :yes:

Where does it even say church?

You are putting words in the text. That way is very easy to say the bible doesn´t contradict itself

 

[SteveGrayFTW]

I am a Christian:
Am I supposed to hate certain people?
Am I supposed to agree with slavery?
Am I supposed to believe the earth is flat and only 6,000 years old?
Am I supposed to judge people and tell them they are going to "hell"?
Am I supposed to throw stones at other faiths and such?

And since I do none of those things, does that mean I am a bad Christian?

Nah, girl. You're okay in my book. :beach:

 

[SteveGrayFTW]

What does that say about Paul who in Galatians said anyone who preached a doctrine different than him "be damned".

Honestly? If someone pulled that "my way or the highway" BS on me, I'd tell them to F off. A** holes existed in Biblical times too, being in the Bible only means he's an a** hole with a wider audience.

 

[Lady B]

Where does it even say church?

You are putting words in the text. That way is very easy to say the bible doesn´t contradict itself

in all due respect: No I am not, I know the chapter and verses, I know the context. I promise you this is all in the context of the roles of women in the church.If you read before and after you will have to agree with me....even if it hurts

 

[Me Myself]

in all due respect: No I am not, I know the chapter and verses, I know the context. I promise you this is all in the context of the roles of women in the church.If you read before and after you will have to agree with me....even if it hurts

Let me see this straight yu are saying that:

-----

Dear Paul, women are causing car crashes in Jackson boulevard, what should we do?

With concern, Timothy
---

Dear Timothy, Women shouldnt drive nor have any contact with cars or wheels or gasoline because they were the ones that invented car crash

With love, Paul
-----

If you read above, would ¨Paul be telling Timothy that women should not be driving on JACKSON BOULEVARD or on BOULEVARDS just because that is what timothy asked about? or would it be about them NOT DRIVING AT ALL because that is what Paul ACTUALLY said?

If you can point at me any place where Paul says the restriction applies only to the Boulevard, by all means I would have been proved wrong. Otherwise, he doesn't want women to drive at all.

 

[Lady B]

Let me see this straight yu are saying that:

-----

Dear Paul, women are causing car crashes in Jackson boulevard, what should we do?

With concern, Timothy
---

Dear Timothy, Women shouldnt drive nor have any contact with cars or wheels or gasoline because they were the ones that invented car crash

With love, Paul
-----

If you read above, would ¨Paul be telling Timothy that women should not be driving on JACKSON BOULEVARD or on BOULEVARDS just because that is what timothy asked about? or would it be about them NOT DRIVING AT ALL because that is what Paul ACTUALLY said?

If you can point at me any place where Paul says the restriction applies only to the Boulevard, by all means I would have been proved wrong. Otherwise, he doesn't want women to drive at all.

1 Timothy 2

New International Version (NIV)

Instructions on Worship

you are asking me to defend God? I cannot and will not. I only can tell you this particular verse you quoted is from 1st timothy chapter 2 and is instructing men and women on how to worship and the roles for women and men in the church or place of worship. If you want Pauls placement of women in the family here you are:<H3 sb_id="ms__id2771">Ephesians 5:22-25

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,


</H3>

 

[Me Myself]

you are asking me to defend God? I cannot and will not.

Nope, I am asking you to evidence me that you are not placing "church" in that sentence when it is clearly out of place. The cite you provide about Paul´s comments on wife and husband does not tell us whether he finds it fit for women to teach men or not. It would definetely say unfit for woman to teach husband (as he is regarded as Christ and it would be fun to say the church has something to TEACH Christ) but it does not talk about woman teachin men in general.

Now the quote I provide clearly says that the woman cannot teach any men according to Paul, and as you can read there is no restriction for this norm so to it only be applicable in church. None.

There is no difference between my example meaning only on Boulevards and your example meaning only on churches.

If you "cannot" say how it is different... well I am not surprised, because it is not different.

But be welcomed to prove me wrong. I actually like religious surprises

 

[Lady B]

Nope, I am asking you to evidence me that you are not placing "church" in that sentence when it is clearly out of place. The cite you provide about Paul´s comments on wife and husband does not tell us whether he finds it fit for women to teach men or not. It would definetely say unfit for woman to teach husband (as he is regarded as Christ and it would be fun to say the church has something to TEACH Christ) but it does not talk about woman teachin men in general.

Now the quote I provide clearly says that the woman cannot teach any men according to Paul, and as you can read there is no restriction for this norm so to it only be applicable in church. None.

There is no difference between my example meaning only on Boulevards and your example meaning only on churches.

If you "cannot" say how it is different... well I am not surprised, because it is not different.

But be welcomed to prove me wrong. I actually like religious surprises

you cannot take a verse ou of context and expect it to make sense. and I know you know this because I have seen you rip people apart for it. The verse you quoted is directly after man's role in worship, so why do you insist that women are being singled out and essentially picked on? Do you see logic in Paul or timothy out of the blue saying "women cannot be teachers of men"? you must ask yourself what is the context here, and look before and after, then it will make sense.

your analogy is good and would certainly make sense if there was no context. If Paul or Timothy were discussing women in general and one said" hey women should not teach men" well there you have it, perfect analogy. I am sorry but it does not fit with this argument. now darn it agree with me im sleepyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[Me Myself]

yThe verse you quoted is directly after man's role in worship, so why do you insist that women are being singled out and essentially picked on?

It also says "This is true with man on every place". this would mean not only in church. So then women would be unable to teach about religion anywhere. I would assume this to include religious forums. So you would be unable to teach about your faith to others according to that bible passage that is a role reserved for Christian men, not women.

your analogy is good and would certainly make sense if there was no context. If Paul or Timothy were discussing women in general and one said" hey women should not teach men" well there you have it, perfect analogy. I am sorry but it does not fit with this argument. now darn it agree with me im sleepyyyyyyyyyyyy

But my analogy had context to. Timothy asked Paul about women driving on Boulevards. Paul answered about women not driving.

Its the same. Timothy asked Paul about women talking in church. Paul answered women shouldn´t teach or have any authority over men on spiritual matters.

so, you teaching anyone about the way of Christ would be wrong according to what Paul said there.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

you cannot take a verse ou of context and expect it to make sense. and I know you know this because I have seen you rip people apart for it. The verse you quoted is directly after man's role in worship, so why do you insist that women are being singled out and essentially picked on? Do you see logic in Paul or timothy out of the blue saying "women cannot be teachers of men"? you must ask yourself what is the context here, and look before and after, then it will make sense.

your analogy is good and would certainly make sense if there was no context. If Paul or Timothy were discussing women in general and one said" hey women should not teach men" well there you have it, perfect analogy. I am sorry but it does not fit with this argument. now darn it agree with me im sleepyyyyyyyyyyyy

L's O L:biglaugh:

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I think we totally got off the topic...lol

Acts 2:18
In those days I will give my Spirit to my servants, both men and women, and they will prophesy.

Maybe paul said what he said because he understood that Men have testosterone and (some) have a lot of pride AND would not respect women anyway..
Especially in those times.

 

[Lady B]

It also says "This is true with man on every place". this would mean not only in church. So then women would be unable to teach about religion anywhere. I would assume this to include religious forums. So you would be unable to teach about your faith to others according to that bible passage that is a role reserved for Christian men, not women.



But my analogy had context to. Timothy asked Paul about women driving on Boulevards. Paul answered about women not driving.

Its the same. Timothy asked Paul about women talking in church. Paul answered women shouldn´t teach or have any authority over men on spiritual matters.

so, you teaching anyone about the way of Christ would be wrong according to what Paul said there.

Even though....you kinda twisted it a bit, essentially you agreed with me in (context of the church)....

Now I can sleep...to Answer your questioning me personally and my membership on this forum and how does that fit with Paul's allocating my role as a women? I am not in church, this isn't a place of worship and I am in no way declaring myself to you or anyone as a preacher, pastor, leader, elder or deaconess. Think of me more as the cleaning lady if you like, a sleepy one at that....

 

[Me Myself]

Even though....you kinda twisted it a bit, essentially you agreed with me in (context of the church)....

I didnt say context of church I said on spiritual matters. If you want to equate what he said to men and women then we shoud do it evenly. He said that men should in ALL PLACES do X and Y (that has to do with worship and spirituality). So when he talks about women, we should not say ONLY in churc. He said LIKEWISE. So, women, in any place, should not teach or be on a position of authority over spiritual matters, according to Paul.

Now I can sleep...to Answer your questioning me personally and my membership on this forum and how does that fit with Paul's allocating my role as a women? I am not in church, this isn't a place of worship and I am in no way declaring myself to you or anyone as a preacher, pastor, leader, elder or deaconess. Think of me more as the cleaning lady if you like, a sleepy one at that....

You dont need to. When you explain to a man what the "teaching" is, you are not in a quiet and submissive role, which Paul says women should have in all places (remember we are under the context of the "likewise" )

He is not only talking about authority (title) but also about teaching (action).

If you are telling me what you believe the truth is, that is called teaching.


teach Pronunciation: /ti&#720;t&#643;/

Definition of teach
verb (past and past participle taught /t&#596;&#720;t/)
1 [with object and infinitive or clause] impart knowledge to or instruct (someone) as to how to do something:
she taught him to read
he taught me how to ride a bike
[with object] give information about or instruction in (a subject or skill):
he came one day each week to teach painting
[with two objects]:
she teaches me French
[no object] work as a teacher:
she teaches at the local high school
2 [with object and clause] cause (someone) to learn or understand something by example or experience:
she&#8217;d been taught that it paid to be passive
my upbringing taught me never to be disrespectful to elders
[with object] encourage someone to accept (something) as a fact or principle:
the philosophy teaches self-control
informal make (someone) less inclined to do something:
&#8216;I&#8217;ll teach you to forget my tea,&#8217; he said, and gave me six with his cane

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I didnt say context of church I said on spiritual matters. If you want to equate what he said to men and women then we shoud do it evenly. He said that men should in ALL PLACES do X and Y (that has to do with worship and spirituality). So when he talks about women, we should not say ONLY in churc. He said LIKEWISE. So, women, in any place, should not teach or be on a position of authority over spiritual matters, according to Paul.



You dont need to. When you explain to a man what the "teaching" is, you are not in a quiet and submissive role, which Paul says women should have in all places (remember we are under the context of the "likewise" )

He is not only talking about authority (title) but also about teaching (action).

If you are telling me what you believe the truth is, that is called teaching.


teach Pronunciation: /ti&#720;t&#643;/

Definition of teach
verb (past and past participle taught /t&#596;&#720;t/)
1 [with object and infinitive or clause] impart knowledge to or instruct (someone) as to how to do something:
she taught him to read
he taught me how to ride a bike
[with object] give information about or instruction in (a subject or skill):
he came one day each week to teach painting
[with two objects]:
she teaches me French
[no object] work as a teacher:
she teaches at the local high school
2 [with object and clause] cause (someone) to learn or understand something by example or experience:
she&#8217;d been taught that it paid to be passive
my upbringing taught me never to be disrespectful to elders
[with object] encourage someone to accept (something) as a fact or principle:
the philosophy teaches self-control
informal make (someone) less inclined to do something:
&#8216;I&#8217;ll teach you to forget my tea,&#8217; he said, and gave me six with his cane

Beware of Pride...MeMyself!!

 

[Lady B]

I didnt say context of church I said on spiritual matters. If you want to equate what he said to men and women then we shoud do it evenly. He said that men should in ALL PLACES do X and Y (that has to do with worship and spirituality). So when he talks about women, we should not say ONLY in churc. He said LIKEWISE. So, women, in any place, should not teach or be on a position of authority over spiritual matters, according to Paul.



You dont need to. When you explain to a man what the "teaching" is, you are not in a quiet and submissive role, which Paul says women should have in all places (remember we are under the context of the "likewise" )

He is not only talking about authority (title) but also about teaching (action).

If you are telling me what you believe the truth is, that is called teaching.


teach Pronunciation: /ti&#720;t&#643;/

Definition of teach
verb (past and past participle taught /t&#596;&#720;t/)
1 [with object and infinitive or clause] impart knowledge to or instruct (someone) as to how to do something:
she taught him to read
he taught me how to ride a bike
[with object] give information about or instruction in (a subject or skill):
he came one day each week to teach painting
[with two objects]:
she teaches me French
[no object] work as a teacher:
she teaches at the local high school
2 [with object and clause] cause (someone) to learn or understand something by example or experience:
she’d been taught that it paid to be passive
my upbringing taught me never to be disrespectful to elders
[with object] encourage someone to accept (something) as a fact or principle:
the philosophy teaches self-control
informal make (someone) less inclined to do something:
‘I’ll teach you to forget my tea,’ he said, and gave me six with his cane

You are still assuming the context! Why can't you go read the verse in it's entirety and in the context. Where was Paul? Who was he teaching? What was timothy asking direction in? They were setting up the church! Paul most definitely did not tell women they should not discuss, debate, teach or expel the word of God.He said woman should not be teachers, preachers of men, this is in a leadership position. Am I being this woman? Really?
At any rate, I give.....you Win

 

[Me Myself]

You are still assuming the context! Why can't you go read the verse in it's entirety and in the context. Where was Paul? Who was he teaching? What was timothy asking direction in? They were setting up the church!

We both did. I am supporting my point though.

Again the verse:


I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness&#8212;with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly owith all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 qFor Adam was formed first, rthen Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but sthe woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing&#8212;if they continue in ufaith and love and holiness, with self-control.

As you can see the whole context makes it clear he is not talking only about church place, but every place. Furhermore, the child bearing part makes it painfully obvious he is most definitely NOT talking about church place. First he says EVERY place. Do yu think his description of wardrobe for them was only on church? then what followed was not church exclusive either, and very obviously the childbearing part is not how they are saved in church. He is talking in general and it is all over the text.

Even if he did not specified this, it is assumed unless he specified he was only talking about church.

Again we can go back to my analogy.


-----

Dear Paul, women are causing car crashes in Jackson boulevard, what should we do?

With concern, Timothy
---

Dear Timothy, Women shouldnt drive nor have any contact with cars or wheels or gasoline because they were the ones that invented car crash

With love, Paul
-----

Now what you are arguing is that Paul here was talking about women driving specifically on the Boulevard because that is what Timothy was asking. Sadly, this is not the case because as you can see, Paul still did not specify it was only on boulevard. He plainly said "women ought not to drive" in the same way he said "women should be quiet, submissive. Must not teach men and should not have authority". Had he said "Not drive on BOULEVARDS" or "Not teach or have authority IN THE CHURCH" then it would be a different story.

Paul most definitely did not tell women they should not discuss, debate, teach or expel the word of God.

Actually, he totally did. Debate and discussion are not submissive. He explicitly said do not teach and did not limit it to church. Again saying he did would be the same as saying only on boulevards. It may have been the question, but it simply wasn't his answer. If you ask me "Does this burger tastes good?" and I reply to you "Burgers dont taste good" am I only talking about this burger? Likewise, Timothy may have asked about churches, but Paul´s claim was way broader than that and you have not provided me ANY text in which he limits it to only churches. "Only this burger is bad"

 

[Katzpur]

If only this were true.

That's absolutely right. Anti-theists can't get past the fact that someone believes in God (or worse, Jesus Christ) and see any good them. It doesn't matter to them how such a Christian behaves; they're still the enemy, just for being a Christian.

 

[waitasec]

That's absolutely right. Anti-theists can't get past the fact that someone believes in God (or worse, Jesus Christ) and see any good them. It doesn't matter to them how such a Christian behaves; they're still the enemy, just for being a Christian.

like i said...
if there were more christians like her, there would be nothing to argue about...

 

[otokage007]

I am a Christian:
Am I supposed to hate certain people?
Am I supposed to agree with slavery?
Am I supposed to believe the earth is flat and only 6,000 years old?
Am I supposed to judge people and tell them they are going to "hell"?
Am I supposed to throw stones at other faiths and such?

And since I do none of those things, does that mean I am a bad Christian?

A really really bad one.

 

[waitasec]

A really really bad one.

i guess i get along with bad christians...
:sarcastic