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People Who Are Against Gay Marriage Aren't Thinking Things Through.

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
This is a paraphrase of something I posted as a reply on Facebook. It was about the CEO of Chick-Fil-A. I realize that most of these people who are against gay marriage aren't really thinking their belief thoroughly or completely through. I really don't believe that most of those are thinking "I am against gay marriage because I hate gays". They are saying "I want to keep marriage traditional". And by not thinking it through, they don't realize that they are not separating what they want from the rights of other people.
They don't realize about legal issues of people together for a lifetime and not being able to make decisions about their significant other- not being able to see the person if they person is incapacitated, not being able to make any decisions regarding a funeral if their S. O. has died, and all that.
If we all just think these things through, then maybe we can stop all this insanity and all these battles.

Any other thoughts?

I wish that all those who are against gay marriage would really think it through. Try to separate what you want from what people are truly asking for. Start thinking about others.
 

Gui10

Active Member
They dont have to think it through because theres a guide, its called a holy book, where it is mentionned (or so they think). For the Bible (i wish i was more of an expert on this) but from what I understand one of the 10 commandments is ''I will not perform adultery'' and I guess most christians take it as ''I will not cheat on my spouse or have gay sex''.

If they think it through, the begin to question the Bible and therefore their religion, then, they become scared that they will go to hell, so in the end, they rather not doubt it in the first place.

That was a generalization for how SOME christians see gay marriage.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
They dont have to think it through because theres a guide, its called a holy book, where it is mentionned (or so they think). For the Bible (i wish i was more of an expert on this) but from what I understand one of the 10 commandments is ''I will not perform adultery'' and I guess most christians take it as ''I will not cheat on my spouse or have gay sex''.

If they think it through, the begin to question the Bible and therefore their religion, then, they become scared that they will go to hell, so in the end, they rather not doubt it in the first place.

That was a generalization for how SOME christians see gay marriage.

One of Jesus lessons is taking the log out your own eye and not worrying about the splinter in your brother's eye. It is also says that Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. So even Christians don't have an excuse to condemn people- even though some of them do it all the time.

:)
 

Gui10

Active Member
Yea im sure my claim is not true for many religious people, its just sad that some of them think this way.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Same as it always was

cartoon-re-distinctions.gif
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
This is a paraphrase of something I posted as a reply on Facebook. It was about the CEO of Chick-Fil-A. I realize that most of these people who are against gay marriage aren't really thinking their belief thoroughly or completely through. I really don't believe that most of those are thinking "I am against gay marriage because I hate gays". They are saying "I want to keep marriage traditional". And by not thinking it through, they don't realize that they are not separating what they want from the rights of other people.
They don't realize about legal issues of people together for a lifetime and not being able to make decisions about their significant other- not being able to see the person if they person is incapacitated, not being able to make any decisions regarding a funeral if their S. O. has died, and all that.
If we all just think these things through, then maybe we can stop all this insanity and all these battles.

Any other thoughts?

I wish that all those who are against gay marriage would really think it through. Try to separate what you want from what people are truly asking for. Start thinking about others.
Excellent post and excellent points.

I do think this issue is a complicated issue, and that there is perhaps a lot more to it than bigotry vs. acceptance. A lot of the people who oppose gay marriage aren't homphobes, they've merely been confused by the endless onslaught of rhetoric, false logic and moral confusion that follows the subject of homosexuality everywhere. The idea of homosexuals as not being allowed to marry doesn't always come from a place of open hostility towards homosexuals, as much as it comes from a general acceptance of heterosexuality as the norm and homosexuality as an 'other' (this goes for people who are pro-gay marriage as well, by the way). The main reason, in my opinion, why there are still people who oppose gay marriage is that there is still a general perception of homsexual love as being less "legitimate" than heterosexual love. It's born out of a basic misunderstanding, that because homosexuality is still seen as an "other" preference it deserves less attention and less consideration - just like how people legitimize mainstream religions but often laugh at or ridicule fringe beliefs; it's about the concept of accepted norms, not outright hatred.
 

Antiochian

Rationalist
I believe that people who passionately feel "preserving traditional marriage" is the right thing to do believe they are operating from a place of love, not hate. But try and tell that to the gay guy whose family hasn't spoken to him in years. Or the bullied gay kid at school that no one has the balls to stand up and defend. I'm sure Billy Graham, if he's still fully in his right mind at 93, didn't consider himself hateful when he took out that ad in NC newspapers for "traditional marriage." Try telling that to the lesbian who's in love and who's just been dictated to by strangers how she can live her life.

Christians are all too quick to gloss over or dance around those uncomfortable Bible passages about Solomon and his hundreds of wives. Or the fact that in numerous cultures, even Christian cultures, arranged marriage was long the norm. Even "traditional marriage" proponents would probably not take well to being told who they have to marry.

Really, what is there to think about? You don't agree with Aunt Sally marrying Aunt Peggy? Get over it, it's her life. After all, if the Bible is to be followed faithfully, someone needs to make a law to stop Uncle Ralph from getting married to Aunt Colleen after his divorce from Aunt Carol. It's hypocrisy. It's inhumane. It's nobody's blessed business who I marry or how I live my life.

Pretty simple, eh?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I still don't see why some people think all of society should be forced to live by what their religion teaches. If you think that same-sex marriage goes against "God's definition of marriage", fine. Don't marry someone of the same sex. Problem solved.

But what does that have to do with someone else marrying the person they love?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
True, they are not thinking it through because they do not understand what marriage really is. Those who are against gay marriage usually come from a position of religion, and in their belief that marriage is based on religion. As we know, it is not. It is a civil contract, requiring a civil license to enter into, and requiring a civil court to dissolve.

No clergyperson can legally sanction any marriage without the license. Clergy are authorized by the state to sign the marriage license only as a nod to tradition. The marriage could have been legally valid for 10 years; there would be no need for any clergy to sign any license. When asked about preserving traditional marriage wrt to atheists or people who never have a religious ceremony, there is deafening silence.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
If you think that same-sex marriage goes against "God's definition of marriage", fine.

And we have ask them "whose God?" http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2953245-post6.html

Hinduism has nothing theologically to say against homosexuality. In fact in the book A Handbook of Sri Vaishnavism it states on page 41:

Homosexuality

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]On the subject of sex and life styles it needs to be mentioned that homosexuality which is a major obsession with the "Abrahamic coalition" (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and the focus of many social and politico-religious agendas in the West and which attracts endless invective and hatred is a non-event in Srivaishnavism. None of the acharyas have ever considered the topic important enough to discuss. So for a Srivaishnava position on the subject we need to take another look at the Scriptures which inform us that there are three types of births;-[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The jiva is blinded by ignorance; sometimes it is embodied as a man, sometimes as a woman, sometimes as a homosexual. According to its deeds and the nature it acquires thereby, it may be born as a deva, a human or a beast. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.29.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]According to the Dharma, homosexuals (both male and female) are born as such and cannot be "converted" from heterosexuality. There is no conscious choice in the matter of sexuality - it is determined by one’s Karma. The question of evil or wickedness does not arise in the case of natural disposition. The victimisation, discrimination or ostracization of homosexuals is wrong and contradicts the teachings of the dharma. The acharyas have never addressed this issue, and none of the law givers have made a big deal about it. In fact there is no mention of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]homosexuality in any of the catalogues of sins that one finds in the Puranas. It is a matter of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]no consequence and not worthy of any serious mental expenditure. The general guidelines of the Dharma regulating relationships and social activities apply to homosexuals as well.[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
It tends to also be the case that people outright opposed to marriage equality don't really practice critical thinking in other domains of life either. They prefer to double down on their preconceptions and justify it via refer to "family values", as if gay people cannot have family values. Their absolute certainty in their convictions is backed by a claim like they know God personally and he told them that gay marriage is out! It's kind of sad.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
It's strange, yet extremely heartening, to see such a show of solidarity on these forums about this subject from such a wide range of religious beliefs. Is there anyone on this forum who actually opposes marriage equality?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Not really. Once we establish that religious law has no legal authority in our society, the question of whose God or which religion becomes wholly irrelevant.

Well that's true. :yes:
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
This is a paraphrase of something I posted as a reply on Facebook. It was about the CEO of Chick-Fil-A. I realize that most of these people who are against gay marriage aren't really thinking their belief thoroughly or completely through. I really don't believe that most of those are thinking "I am against gay marriage because I hate gays". They are saying "I want to keep marriage traditional". And by not thinking it through, they don't realize that they are not separating what they want from the rights of other people.
They don't realize about legal issues of people together for a lifetime and not being able to make decisions about their significant other- not being able to see the person if they person is incapacitated, not being able to make any decisions regarding a funeral if their S. O. has died, and all that.
If we all just think these things through, then maybe we can stop all this insanity and all these battles.

Any other thoughts?

I wish that all those who are against gay marriage would really think it through. Try to separate what you want from what people are truly asking for. Start thinking about others.

It's not just their fault though. There's an elaborate game played by both sides in the media and outside of it that largely distracts from the actual question of gay marriage. The religious person will usually oppose gay marriage saying something along the lines of "Marriage is between a man and a woman" or "I am against gay marriage because the Bible is against homosexuality."

In almost all situations where I have had the fortunate pleasure of seeing an argument/debate between the two sides, the pro-gay marriage side almost always responds to that claim with an argument against religion or the Bible.

Not saying it happens in all cases, but the usual response I have seen to anti-gay marriage rhetoric is a debate about the religion behind why those people aren't thinking it through (just look at the threads on this forum about it--this thread even).

The fact is that it has nothing to do with religion. When a religious person says "Marriage is between a man and a woman" or "I am against gay marriage because of the Bible" the appropriate response is not to attack the Bible or Christianity (thereby losing any chance of winning the debate), but to simply respond with "What does that have to do with legal equality?"

Most people think of marriage in terms of religion, and the pro-gay marriage side has played into the silly game of it being a religious debate. The truth is that it isn't a debate. It's as simple as some people have special rights and others are denied those same rights based on nothing more than who they've chosen to obtain those rights with.

I've never met a religious person who was opposed to legal equality when they thought of the issue as one of legal equality and not one of religion. Those of us who are for gay marriage have to bring the argument to that place, where its about the legal issues, and not fall into the my-religion-says-this-well-your-religion-is-false game.


It's why arguments like the one quoted below don't work. Because then it becomes an attack on religion in the eyes of the religionist. Whether or not that's an accurate perception, it is usually how something like that is seen.

True, they are not thinking it through because they do not understand what marriage really is. Those who are against gay marriage usually come from a position of religion, and in their belief that marriage is based on religion. As we know, it is not. It is a civil contract, requiring a civil license to enter into, and requiring a civil court to dissolve.

No clergyperson can legally sanction any marriage without the license. Clergy are authorized by the state to sign the marriage license only as a nod to tradition. The marriage could have been legally valid for 10 years; there would be no need for any clergy to sign any license. When asked about preserving traditional marriage wrt to atheists or people who never have a religious ceremony, there is deafening silence.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
It's why arguments like the one quoted below don't work. Because then it becomes an attack on religion in the eyes of the religionist. Whether or not that's an accurate perception, it is usually how something like that is seen.

It's true that they dig their heels in, but it is law. We have to remember the First Amendment, Article IV section 1(Full Faith and Credit Clause), and the Fourteenth Amendment. While the First Amendment does guarantee the free exercise of religion, it prohibits Congress from making any law promoting one religion over another; Congress slimed past that with DOMA, not making any mention of religion; the FF&CC is a bit iffy because of states' rights; the Fourteenth Amendment, however, trumps all state constitutions and laws. Consider Lawrence v. Texas which overturned all anti-sodomy laws in the US, and Loving v. Virginia which overturned all anti-interracial marriage laws. I think the bulk of the issue rests on the Fourteenth Amendment; but that's just my belief.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
It's not just their fault though. There's an elaborate game played by both sides in the media and outside of it that largely distracts from the actual question of gay marriage. The religious person will usually oppose gay marriage saying something along the lines of "Marriage is between a man and a woman" or "I am against gay marriage because the Bible is against homosexuality."

In almost all situations where I have had the fortunate pleasure of seeing an argument/debate between the two sides, the pro-gay marriage side almost always responds to that claim with an argument against religion or the Bible.

Not saying it happens in all cases, but the usual response I have seen to anti-gay marriage rhetoric is a debate about the religion behind why those people aren't thinking it through (just look at the threads on this forum about it--this thread even).

The fact is that it has nothing to do with religion. When a religious person says "Marriage is between a man and a woman" or "I am against gay marriage because of the Bible" the appropriate response is not to attack the Bible or Christianity (thereby losing any chance of winning the debate), but to simply respond with "What does that have to do with legal equality?"

Most people think of marriage in terms of religion, and the pro-gay marriage side has played into the silly game of it being a religious debate. The truth is that it isn't a debate. It's as simple as some people have special rights and others are denied those same rights based on nothing more than who they've chosen to obtain those rights with.

I've never met a religious person who was opposed to legal equality when they thought of the issue as one of legal equality and not one of religion. Those of us who are for gay marriage have to bring the argument to that place, where its about the legal issues, and not fall into the my-religion-says-this-well-your-religion-is-false game.


It's why arguments like the one quoted below don't work. Because then it becomes an attack on religion in the eyes of the religionist. Whether or not that's an accurate perception, it is usually how something like that is seen.

Typically, the response I've been given is that America has been founded on Christian values, that we've always legislated morality, and that the people need to protect these values that made this country so great.

:shrug:
 
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