Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[waitasec]

Obviously you can't....or won't....read the story as if it applies....to you.

If you had lived a ministry with an occasional visit of angels.....
And in your last hour such counsel is not there....
You might as such a question.

This does apply to you.

If heaven is willing to stand back and allow the Carpenter to die....
Heaven will do the same unto you.

Get over yourself.

i'm not sure how this conjecture reconciles the two opposing narratives...if jesus was in fact gawd

 

[1robin]

no mark says that...luke has it different

It is not two different stories. I would have thought that by now you would be very familiar with the literary techniques of telescoping or complementary accounting. One person who has a different focus calls a builing blue, another says its blue but very tall. They are complementary. The same is true with Luke and Mark.

in one narrative jesus is scared and unsure in the luke narrative jesus is confident
two opposing narratives...oops.

I just went through this with someone else. Produce the verses and I will clear them up.

 

[waitasec]

It is not two different stories. I would have thought that by now you would be very familiar with the literary techniques of telescoping or complementary accounting.

hardly complementary...they are opposing
2 different audiences one was jewish the other was roman greco

I just went through this with someone else. Produce the verses and I will clear them up.

i already did... #2191

 

[1robin]

hardly complementary...they are opposing
2 different audiences one was jewish the other was roman greco

I said complementary in the literary context. They most certainly do not contradict. I was not saying (obviously) that the people themselves were complementary with respect to each other. What a strange assertion.

i already did... #2191

Here are your verses:

jesus said:
luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

in another gospel jesus also said:
mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

This is worse than I thought they are two different events. It is like two reporters going to a game and writing about it. One says x hit a home run among other things and the other says x hit a single among other things and then someone saying they are contradicting. No it is probably the case that x hit a homer one inning and a single in another. That is complementary attestation not a contradiction.

I had thought you were confusing the verses in the gospels that mention accounts of what the thieves said. Even they are not contradictory but complementary these verses are two seperate events and do not even have a surface contradiction to confuse people who don't read much. Unless you are claiming the "today" issues are conflicting, which they are not and do not have to do with the discussion about the thief repenting which was being discussed which explains why they came from way back in post #2191 where we were discussing a totally different issue..

 

[sojourner]

that there are two separate narratives based on hearsay...

So? Got a problem with that?

 

[waitasec]

So? Got a problem with that?

yes i do...
you got a problem with that?

 

[waitasec]

I said complementary in the literary context. They most certainly do not contradict. I was not saying (obviously) that the people themselves were complementary with respect to each other. What a strange assertion.






Here are your verses:

jesus said:
luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

in another gospel jesus also said:
mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

This is worse than I thought they are two different events.

oh i see, so jesus was crucified more than once.
got it.

 

[waitasec]

I had thought you were confusing the verses in the gospels that mention accounts of what the thieves said.

mark 15:27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. [28] [a] 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, ... Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him."
33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).


luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[e] When he had said this, he breathed his last.


there are three discrepancies...the criminals
jesus state of mind- sure or unsure
and what he says right before he dies
there is quite a bit of a difference between..."why have you forsaken me?" and "into your hands hands.." not even complimentary

 

[Thief]

i'm not sure how this conjecture reconciles the two opposing narratives...if jesus was in fact gawd

Different issue....you're digressing....again.

Of course the gospels tell the story differently one for m the other.

They would all be the same text...if identical.

You cannot succeed in denouncing the story of the crucifixion by boo-hooing
over the details of how the story gets told.

As for the quote...'Why have you forsaken me?'....
it becomes yours to use....as the angels go do something else.

I suspect as much to be a serious possibility.

 

[sojourner]

yes i do...
you got a problem with that?

Yes, I do. Your problem with two different stories represents a naive understanding of the gospels, yet you expound as if you knew all about them.

 

[sojourner]

there are three discrepancies...the criminals
jesus state of mind- sure or unsure
and what he says right before he dies
there is quite a bit of a difference between..."why have you forsaken me?" and "into your hands hands.." not even complimentary

Different perspective, different authors, different source material, different intent, different audience -- both included in the canon in order to preserve all the legitimate religious tradition that was circulating.

 

[1robin]

oh i see, so jesus was crucified more than once.
got it.

Since you do not believe this and you know I do not believe this then what purpose do these snide sarcastic jabs have? It sure as heck doesn't advance the topic.

 

[waitasec]

Different perspective, different authors, different source material, different intent, different audience -- both included in the canon in order to preserve all the legitimate religious tradition that was circulating.

contradictory accounts of the same event
and an appeal to tradition is rather weak...
it is a tradition to circumcision females in certain societies...does the tradition make it right?

the cannon was contrived...you know better than that.

 

[waitasec]

Since you do not believe this and you know I do not believe this then what purpose do these snide sarcastic jabs have? It sure as heck doesn't advance the topic.

what doesn't advance the topic is
your ridiculous way of explaining that these were different events...
there was one event with many contradicting accounts based on hearsay...you just know of the four

 

[waitasec]

Yes, I do. Your problem with two different stories represents a naive understanding of the gospels, yet you expound as if you knew all about them.

no i don't. i am pointing out the discrepancies i see.
it is not naive to see two opposing narratives and question them
it is naive to take it at face value and accept them because of tradition

 

[waitasec]

Different issue....you're digressing....again.

Of course the gospels tell the story differently one for m the other.

They would all be the same text...if identical.

You cannot succeed in denouncing the story of the crucifixion by boo-hooing
over the details of how the story gets told.

As for the quote...'Why have you forsaken me?'....
it becomes yours to use....as the angels go do something else.

I suspect as much to be a serious possibility.

again...

i'm not sure how this conjecture reconciles the two opposing narratives...if jesus was in fact gawd

 

[1robin]

mark 15:27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. [28] [a] 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, ... Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him."
33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).


luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[e] When he had said this, he breathed his last.


there are three discrepancies...the criminals
jesus state of mind- sure or unsure
and what he says right before he dies
there is quite a bit of a difference between..."why have you forsaken me?" and "into your hands hands.." not even complimentary

Here is a short harmony which can be found in a thousand places on the net.

1. Jesus arrived at Golgotha (Matt. 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17).2. He refused the offer of wine mixed with myrrh (Matt. 27:34; Mark 15:23).3. He was nailed to the cross between the two thieves (Matt. 27:35-38; Mark 15:24-28; Luke 23:33-38; John 19:18).4. He gave His first cry from the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34).5. The soldiers took Jesus’ garments, leaving Him naked on the cross (Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23).6. The Jews mocked Jesus (Matt. 27:39-43; Mark 15:29-32; Luke 23:35-37).7. He conversed with the two thieves (Luke 23:39-43).8. He gave His second cry from the cross, “I tell you the truth; today you will be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43).9. He spoke the third time, “Woman, here is your son” (John 19:26-27).10. Darkness came from noon to 3 p.m. (Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44).11. He gave His fourth cry, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Matt. 27:46-47; Mark 15:34-36)12. His fifth cry was, “I am thirsty” (John 19:28).13. He drank “wine vinegar” (John 19:29).14. His sixth cry was, “It is finished” (John 19:30).15. He drank wine vinegar from a sponge (Matt. 27:48; Mark 15:36).16. He cried a seventh time, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit” (Luke 23:46).17. He dismissed His spirit by an act of His own will (Matt. 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30).18. The temple curtain was torn in two (Matt. 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45).19. Roman soldiers admitted, “Surely He was the Son of God” (Matt. 27:54; Mark 15:39).
"Harmony of Events at Jesus - Chart" - Earl B Mason, Sr.
Bolding mine.

As can be seen these verses are for different times and are seperate events. At one point both criminals mocked him later on one of them repented. This is the universal intepretation of the verses concerning the thieves and is exactly what I have been saying. No contradiction.

I do not see a sure unsure issue at all. For the heck of it I will assume there was one. He had two natures a natural, fleshly, mortal, non devine body and mind. He also had a divine spirit. The bible clearly says that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Jesus was an example to us because he felt the dual natures at war within him as well. He felt pain and probably uncertainty at time but his divine spirit always triumphed. His mind might have had moments of doubt or confusion but as an example his divine spirit and will overcame these problems. So at one time his flesh might have caused him to say things that show vulnerability and confusion but his spirit at other times showed resolution. This is perfectly complementary and that is assuming it even happened. Things don't get much more full of anguish than hanging on a cross suffecating, being spit on, beaten, and mocked and cursed by the ones who he was suffering for, and for the first time ever the fathers love was being withdrawn from him. It is a miracle his flesh did not go insane.

There is no contradiction in his statements either. His flesh was in shock and his mind in misery and for the first time the fathers love was being removed from him and that anguish is beyond understanding. Since Jesus had no way to know what being seperated from God would be like it is no wonder that the shock was confusing. Commentators also add that he was repeating a common saying that idicates condition as David and many others said the same words.
Wesley's Notes
27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice - Our Lord's great agony probably continued these three whole hours, at the conclusion of which he thus cried out, while he suffered from God himself what was unutterable. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? - Our Lord hereby at once expresses his trust in God, and a most distressing sense of his letting loose the powers of darkness upon him, withdrawing the comfortable discoveries of his presence, and filling his soul with a terrible sense of the wrath due to the sins which he was bearing. Psalm 22:1
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

So at that point in the process he is confused and bewildered by the strain on his flesh. His spirit is still willing and he does not back down even in the terror of his contention. As the time goes by he seems to have become more resolute and as death approached and his flesh faded out somewhat and the end was known to be near he makes a last resolution to carry on and completely resigns himself to the ultimate promise in the re-establishment of the relationship with his father by saying into your hands I commend my spirit. Considering exactly what Christ's dual nature was his comments are exactly what I would expect to hear. In fact a being who did not have, pain, anguish, and confusion is hard to relate to.

 

[waitasec]

moving goal posts...are you feeling a little uncomfortable of the fact that there are opposing narratives? focus...this meandering only suggests you can't deal with the discrepancies that are there.

 

[1robin]

what doesn't advance the topic is
your ridiculous way of explaining that these were different events...
there was one event with many contradicting accounts based on hearsay...you just know of the four

Wrong. What does I know of the four mean? There is one account testified to by four people who had differeing points of view and missions. They do not conflict but do record the fluctuations that Jesus felt during this unimagineable agony. There are hundreds of crucifixion harmonies on the net and in scholaraly dissertations. No one without a preconcieved hostile position finds any meaningfull problems in them. In fact Simon Greenleaf perhaps the greatest scholar on evidence presentation in the history of man said there is more than enough harmoniuos evidence to establish the crucifixion as certain.

 

[waitasec]

Wrong. What does I know of the four mean? There is one account testified to by four people who had differeing points of view and missions.

correction there were more than those four who had contradicting points of view within their narratives

They do not conflict but do record the fluctuations that Jesus felt during this unimagineable agony.

an interesting point under the pretense that jesus was god...

There are hundreds of crucifixion harmonies on the net and in scholaraly dissertations. No one without a preconcieved hostile position finds any meaningfull problems in them. In fact Simon Greenleaf perhaps the greatest scholar on evidence presentation in the history of man said there is more than enough harmoniuos evidence to establish the crucifixion as certain.

so when you take a test and you get 6 out of 10 correct you still get a 100% because you at least got the 6 right...
intertesting.