"Our debts" or "our trespasses"? Which do you use?

[Sylvan]

I'm just curious. I was raised with "our debts" (Presbyterian) but I wonder if any of you who regularly say the Lords Prayer have switched from one to other or have strong feelings regarding the matter? Any discussion of translation or even instructions on how one might pronounce the Lords Prayer in Aramaic are welcome. If this was discussed in a previous thread I couldn't find it, and would happy to just be pointed in that direction if this is rehashing an old chestnut.

Thanks.

 

[ChristineES]

I use both on different occasions. Debts is a word I use outside of prayer but transgression is not, so I use debts more often than transgression.

 

[uu_sage]

My personal preference for the Lord's prayer is the language of trespass and trespasses but I honor other language such as debts/debtors, or sins/sin.

 

[fenrisx]

I use both on different occasions. Debts is a word I use outside of prayer but transgression is not, so I use debts more often than transgression.

agreed, maybe each can apply to a fitting situation

 

[SageTree]

I have no qualms with saying any variation on the theme,

But I myself was raised with 'Trespass/Trespasses' as a United Methodist, and at the Anglican Church, which I attend at this stage of my life.

 

[Sylvan]

My personal preference for the Lord's prayer is the language of trespass and trespasses but I honor other language such as debts/debtors, or sins/sin.

But do you think there is a difference in meaning? Or do they speak essentially about the same thing?

And does anyone know the origin of these divergent translations in the English version?

Are there similar issues with the translation of this prayer in other languages?

But I myself was raised with 'Trespass/Trespasses' as a United Methodist, and at the Anglican Church, which I attend at this stage of my life.

So do you think the acceptable translation is socially determined?
For all you christians wondering why some weirdo sorcerer dude is so interested in this... I occasionally say this prayer to honor the spirit of my grandfather whom I heard say it many many times. And he always used "debts". But recently I have been to rituals in Catholic-derived traditions such as Vodou ceremonies or Espiritismo Misas where "trespasses" is used, as I imagine in all Catholic settings.

Thinking about the difference between the concepts of "debts to" and "trespasses against" god gave me many thoughts regarding cultural differences in historically christian countries. And also the role of capitalism. If anyone has ever read the work of Max Weber such as "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" there is much to chew on here.

That is why I wanted a variety of believers opinions.

 

[SageTree]

But do you think there is a difference in meaning?
or do they speak essentially about the same thing?
So do you think the acceptable translation is socially determined?

For all of these questions I'd have to refer you to a large part of me being present in any ritual, in any religious tradition...

My intention.

The Maharishi once joked that you could use 'coca cola' as your mantra, but if said in the correct mind it would still be beneficial (might be paraphrasing a little)

But I truly believe that in my time Seeking, this is one of my most valuable insights.

[/quote]For all you christians wondering why some weirdo sorcerer dude is so interested in this... I occasionally say this prayer to honor the spirit of my grandfather whom I heard say it many many times. And he always used "debts". But recently I have been to rituals in Catholic-derived traditions such as Vodou ceremonies or Espiritismo Misas where "trespasses" is used, as I imagine in all Catholic settings.

Thinking about the difference between the concepts of "debts to" and "trespasses against" god gave me many thoughts regarding cultural differences in historically christian countries. And also the role of capitalism. If anyone has ever read the work of Max Weber such as "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" there is much to chew on here.

That is why I wanted a variety of believers opinions.[/quote]

Definitely had me scratching my head

I don't have any clear thoughts coming to mind to share, so maybe I can just leave you with something to read on. And it might also answer your other question,

And does anyone know the origin of these divergent translations in the English version?

All hail wikipedia: The Lord Prayer

LOL.... well.... it's a decent start anyways


:namaste
SageTree

 

[Sylvan]

Actually you gave me what I want to know:

Though the Latin form that was traditionally used in Western Europe has debita (debts), most English-speaking Christians (except Scottish Presbyterians and some others of the Reformed tradition), use trespasses.

As I am descended of Scottish Presbyterians I will continue to use debts.

Now here is a question I would like to here any opinions on: If that debt is the debt owed to God for the crime of original sin, than hasn't Christ already paid that debt for us? Is this debt now to Christ?

 

[InChrist]

Actually you gave me what I want to know:


As I am descended of Scottish Presbyterians so will continue to use debts.

Now here is a question I would like to here any opinions on: If that debt is the debt owed to God for the crime of original sin, than hasn't Christ already paid that debt for us? Is this debt now to Christ?

I don't think debt isin reference to the original sin of Adam and Eve, but to the debt owed to God for any of our sins because alll sin is ultimately against God.

 

[SageTree]

Actually you gave me what I want to know:


As I am descended of Scottish Presbyterians I will continue to use debts.

Now here is a question I would like to here any opinions on: If that debt is the debt owed to God for the crime of original sin, than hasn't Christ already paid that debt for us? Is this debt now to Christ?

Glad then.

I'll leave the theology question at the end to someone who cares more about it than I.

My own comment is paid off or not, it's good to recognize one's faults and things that hold us back from our goals, or in this case a more perfect relationship with God.

 

[Sylvan]

paid off or not, it's good to recognize one's faults and things that hold us back from our goals, or in this case a more perfect relationship with God.

Someone agrees with you:

Anthony C. Deane, Canon of Worcester Cathedral, suggested that the choice of the word "ὀφειλήματα" (debts), rather than "ἁμαρτίας" (sins), indicated a reference to failures to use opportunities of doing good. He linked this with the parable of the sheep and the goats (also in Matthew's Gospel), in which the grounds for condemnation are not wrong-doing in the ordinary sense but failure to do right, missing opportunities for showing love to others

I don't think debt isin reference to the original sin of Adam and Eve, but to the debt owed to God for any of our sins because alll sin is ultimately against God.

This is interesting to me. Could you tell me some more about this?
What do you think of the quote above?

 

[SageTree]

Thanks Sylvan

 

[InChrist]

This is interesting to me. Could you tell me some more about this?
What do you think of the quote above?

I don’t disagree with the quote by Anthony C. Deane. Yet, I think the word trespass or sin basically expresses the same idea because our greatest debt is owed to God and as I said I believe our sins are ultimately against God. From my understanding the Greek word for sin means “missing the mark”. When we fail to acknowledge God or show gratitude to Him, or ignore opportunities to show love, forgiveness, or give help to others then we certainly have failed to do good in the sense that the quote by Deane expresses. This failure I see as falling short of God’s glory and goodness. So whether we sin directly against God or others by a wrong actions or thoughts or whether we fail to take opportunities to do or express good it all seems to fit the concept of sin… for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

In the following verses (Matthew 6:14-15) Jesus uses the word trespasses instead of debts, so it seems to me that although they are different words He uses them interchangeably.