Ex Christians

[Jacksnyte]

This just illustrates how the word "Christian" has been watered down to the point of hardly meaning anything anymore. If the poster you're quoting adheres to UU doctrine this is a person who denies the diety of Jesus. IMO it's downright dishonest for such people to attempt to speak for the Church or apologize on behalf of the Church

UU christians do not necessarily "deny the deity of Jesus". That is a baseless assumption on your part.

 

[Jacksnyte]

I doubt many, if any, gave carnal desires as their reason for leaving Christianity. "They just want to live a life of sin" is usually what Christians tell themselves because they can't stand the suggestion that their beliefs are anything other than perfect and desirable.

Besides, since when has Christians ever let their beliefs get in the way of their carnal desires? Premarital sex, adultry, etc. as long as isn't with someone of the same sex. The majority of Christians are more concerned with the sins of others than they are with their own.

In my neck of the woods, fundamentalist/evangelical christians have higher numbers of teen pregnancy, divorce, domestic violence, addiction, intolerance, etc., than non-christians.

 

[waitasec]

In my neck of the woods, fundamentalist/evangelical christians have higher numbers of teen pregnancy, divorce, domestic violence, addiction, intolerance, etc., than non-christians.

then they are not "real christians"

 

[Jacksnyte]

So let us assume for the sake of my charges that you have cast doubts about Jesus being the Son of God. Have you ever acknowledged that some empirical evidence submitted pointing to the Christian God had some truth to it although you were hesitant to say for sure? Or are all the inexplicable facts behind the events at Fatima, Zeitoun, Akita, The Shroud, Guadalupe, Padre Pio’s wounds, exorcisms not worth a second look in your court of honest judgments?

Or are you going to ask me “What facts?” for the nth time? Note that all of those miracles can only point to Jesus Christ and Christianity or the devil, nothing else. You cannot, in my opinion, with any logic say “they could be talking about any deity.” So if you reject my empirical evidence pointing to the Christianity then it is tantamount to you attempting to disprove the deity of Jesus Christ, in my estimation. [/QUOTE]


I find it very interesting how so many christians of whatever flavour will hold up all these accounts of miracles as proof of christianity, but will totally write off any miracles claimed by faiths other than christianity. Hinduism alone for example, has many, many more miracles associated with it than christianity, as do quite a few others. The christian, and specifically catholic miracles are nothing new, and nothing any more special than the miracles of non-christian faiths.

 

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by vanityofvanitys
"I do not believe you see at all, sorry to say. I think you are intelligent and cordial, but when it comes to trying to disprove the deity of Jesus Christ, many of your talents and integrity (to a point) are left behind."




Well, are you on record with your beliefs here in print? Or have you not rendered an opinion yet as to whether you believe Jesus is as He claimes, i.e. the Son of God, or that he is not?

What business do you have even asking me this in this thread?

Basically, it sounds like you're telling me, "Depending on whether or not you accept Jesus Christ in exactly the same way I do, I'm either going to address your posts or ignore them and dance around them".

I've answered the question you posed in your OP a cpl times now, in great detail, and you've yet to acknowledge those answers.

If you have not said either way, then I apologize for assuming you had done so via my inference. But if not, why not?

Because:

A. It isn't necessary for the sake of this thread and. . .

B. I believe any serious, sincere personal theology is just that: personal. I also believe that the more someone flaunts their "beliefs", especially if they're using them as an excuse to assign themselves special rights and disregard the rights of other people, the less like it is that they even believe what they're professing to believe. To people like that, God is just a tool.

So let us assume for the sake of my charges that you have cast doubts about Jesus being the Son of God.

"Lets assume for the sake of your argument"? What does that even mean? Basically it sounds like you're saying "I can't address or refute your points so I'm going to focus on your theology, even though it's completely off topic, and even though I have no idea what your theology is. And since I don't know what your theology is, I'm going to assign you whatever theology is most convienant for the sake of my argument and I expect you to go along with all that because, lets face it, it's the only chance I have of scoring any points in this debate at all'.

You're basically asking me to humor you.

Have you ever acknowledged that some empirical evidence submitted pointing to the Christian God had some truth to it although you were hesitant to say for sure?

I'm going to disregard the "even though you were hesitant" because that's completely moot and just one more example of an unfounded assumption on your part.

As far as the rest of the question goes, give me an example. As it's phrased the question is too vague and too loaded with subjective terms.

Or are all the inexplicable facts behind the events at Fatima, Zeitoun, Akita, The Shroud, Guadalupe, Padre Pio’s wounds, exorcisms not worth a second look in your court of honest judgments?

The legitimacy of those events is NOT the point. the point is whether or not any legitimacy thereof should be considered proof of Christianity, and more specifically, your personal brand of Christianity. I've already explained why I don't think it is.

Or are you going to ask me “What facts?” for the nth time?

No, I'm going to ask you to consider my posts as they're written for the umpteenth time, and bereft of all the erroneous and off-topic assumptions you've been using in order to not have to consider them.

Note that all of those miracles can only point to Jesus Christ and Christianity or the devil, nothing else.

Bull, and I've already explained why.

You cannot, in my opinion, with any logic say “they could be talking about any deity.”

Well, good thing I didn't say that then, huh. and just an aside: just how many Gods do you believe exist anyway?

So if you reject my empirical evidence pointing to the Christianity

You haven't shown any.

then it is tantamount to you attempting to disprove the deity of Jesus Christ, in my estimation.

Again: bull. Now stop using that completely erroneous, off-topic, and unnecessary "estimation" to cloud the issue and ADDRESS THE POINTS I'VE BROUGHT UP.

 

[Jacksnyte]

then they are not "real christians"

I never said they weren't. In fact, in my experience, they pretty much exemplify what I think of when I think of your average christian.

 

[Quagmire]

Whatever.


Of course I did not expect you to answer my simple question proposed. (but still not sure why)


I'll move on.

I'm still waiting for you to explain in coherent terms why you endorse the witch-burnings, and what the fact that it's just being done in Africa has to do with anything.

 

[waitasec]

I never said they weren't. In fact, in my experience, they pretty much exemplify what I think of when I think of your average christian.

indeed.
my sarcastic meter apparently malfunctioned...

 

[Jacksnyte]

Oh, I see! you meant "real christians" like these:

Landover Baptist | Where the Worthwhile Worship. Unsaved Unwelcome

;P

 

[uu_sage]

In my defense I was not attacking Catholicism as a whole or even Conservative Catholics. I was saying that many ex Christians come wounded from the conservative expression of Catholicism, from Evangelicalism and fundamentalism. I love many great things about Catholicism including the beauty of the mass, the weekly celebration of the Eucharist, the prophetic tradition of social justice in the tradition of Oscar Romero and Dorthea Day and the fine liturgical music over the centuries and the Catholic folk music of David Haas and Marty Haugen.

Well who doesn't like humility, and that's very honorable of your to be so kind to unbelievers and admit to our many sins. (not being sarcastic)

Now in following, I would like to apologize to God on your behalf for totallying maligning what you call "Conservative Catholicism" stands for, and what they have to done to cause division or prohibit the love of Christ going forward. You simply are being a demagogue, in my own personal opinion, and that can have dangerous ramifications.

 

[uu_sage]

King of the Jungle- I am too your brother in Christ and that came off to me as dismissive, rude and un Christ like. I received my baptism, I receive communion every single Sunday and I do my best to follow in the ways of the Lord as made known in our brother Jesus. I am unapologetically liberal and unashamedly Christian for I am not ashamed of the Gospel. I am a theological liberal, I am a Christian Universalist and I respect the soul liberty of every person to develop their faith as their conscience leads them even to those I theologically disagree with. I am a Christian because that is the tradition of my birth, the tradition that gives me strength for the journey of faith, because the God who was revealed by Jesus is a God of unconditional acceptance and love who makes claims on us to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk with God, to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, and all our souls and all our minds. This God revealed by Jesus calls us to love our enemies, to do good to those who would harm us, to forgive seventy times seven, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, to release all who are imprisoned and oppressed and to clothe the naked, to recover sight for the blind, to feed those who are hungry, to heal the sick and to call no one person evil. I have every right to hold the church I love accountable for its sins and to repent when it has done wrong. Our brother in Christ Desmund Tutu says "That if you are neutral in cases of injustice, then you have chose then side of the oppressor" Simply stated that silence means you are complicit in injustice if you do not stand up for justice. As Martin Luther, Tony Campolo, and Nadia Bolz Webber says, "The church is my mother but she happens to be a whore" What I mean by this is the church is our mother- she nurtures us in love, we sit at Christ's table of inclusion (Eucharist), we go out into the world in justice but she has been complicit in alot of unjust systems and policies. The term Christian is not just the domain of fundamentalists or evangelicals it is for us liberal Christians too. I will not stand idly by while the term Christian is transformed into something ugly. A Christian in my mind is anybody who follows in the teaching, the example, and life of Jesus. Just because we have differing theological views of our Christian faith doesn't mean we have to be disagreeable. We will agree to disagree in Christ like love.

This just illustrates how the word "Christian" has been watered down to the point of hardly meaning anything anymore. If the poster you're quoting adheres to UU doctrine this is a person who denies the diety of Jesus. IMO it's downright dishonest for such people to attempt to speak for the Church or apologize on behalf of the Church

 

[thau]

The only way we overcome this impasse is for me to take a lot of time composing long rebuttals to your varied questions or generic denials. I have no zeal for that task. I did go back to the thread where you said you answered the my question “Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?” I did not see that answered by you. I guess we’ll never know.

Here is an opinion though. As long as you continue to try to stonewall the Christian message to the world, the reasons for it, and the evidence for it, you will remain on the losing side. God is not as big of a mystery as you apparently want Him to be.

 

[waitasec]

oh my gawyayayayayd

 

[Shermana]

As long as you continue to try to stonewall the Christian message to the world, the reasons for it, and the evidence for it, you will remain on the losing side.

Traditional orthodox "Christianity" is shrinking and declining, maybe not so in certain third world countries though. It's easy to see who is on the "losing side". The people who "Stonewall" the traditional (i.e. "orthodox") interpretations are doing Christianity a great favor.

 

[Quagmire]

The only way we overcome this impasse is for me to take a lot of time composing long rebuttals to your varied questions or generic denials. I have no zeal for that task.

It was your tangled web I was trying to unweave.

I did go back to the thread where you said you answered the my question “Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?” I did not see that answered by you. I guess we’ll never know.

Now you're either hallucinating, or just making stuff up.

btw, I did go back to where you said you don't really believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but that you believe that pretending that you do is just as good.

Here is an opinion though. As long as you continue to try to stonewall the Christian message to the world,

Don't you think that someone who doesn't even believe the message is doing more harm by trying to promote it than someone who doesn't believe it and just leaves it alone?

the reasons for it, and the evidence for it, you will remain on the losing side.

So you admit this is all just a game for you.

God is not as big of a mystery as you apparently want Him to be.

Of course He's no mystery to you, why would he be?: You couldn't care less about Him one way or the other.

 

[uu_sage]

In answer to your question, I believe that Jesus is son of the living God. He is son of God in that he had deep communion and relationship to God and he is son of God in that we are all God's children.

The only way we overcome this impasse is for me to take a lot of time composing long rebuttals to your varied questions or generic denials. I have no zeal for that task. I did go back to the thread where you said you answered the my question “Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?” I did not see that answered by you. I guess we’ll never know.

Here is an opinion though. As long as you continue to try to stonewall the Christian message to the world, the reasons for it, and the evidence for it, you will remain on the losing side. God is not as big of a mystery as you apparently want Him to be.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

In answer to your question, I believe that Jesus is son of the living God. He is son of God in that he had deep communion and relationship to God and he is son of God in that we are all God's children.

You have to understand that Christianity is not a legalistic religion. This isn't just a matter of being nice to people. This is a religion of faith. If one does not believe Jesus is the Lord then they are not able to trust in his deliverance. How could they? If he's just a nice guy that's now dead or is just another soul in Heaven, how is he actually going to be there for us here and now?

 

[waitasec]

You have to understand that Christianity is not a legalistic religion. This isn't just a matter of being nice to people. This is a religion of faith. If one does not believe Jesus is the Lord then they are not able to trust in his deliverance. How could they? If he's just a nice guy that's now dead or is just another soul in Heaven, how is he actually going to be there for us here and now?

stating that one believes jesus is the son of the living god is a statement of faith.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

stating that one believes jesus is the son of the living god is a statement of faith.

Then it comes back to the MEANING of that title. For orthodox Christians it's usually viewed as an affirmation of his divinity when used in the context of Jesus. For others it can mean that he's a son just like all of God's children i.e. he's just a man

 

[waitasec]

Then it comes back to the MEANING of that title. For orthodox Christians it's usually viewed as an affirmation of his divinity when used in the context of Jesus. For others it can mean that he's a son just like all of God's children i.e. he's just a man

that is still up for debate.

don't you find it interesting that ones belief is always the right belief...?

what is so important about being right about said belief? what matters is how we treat one another.