Ex Christians

[waitasec]

I feel like most of the ex-Christians give two reasons why they bailed on Jesus. Usually the first one they give is a well thought out, intellectually impressive response to certain doctrinal issues they have. The second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.

and what carnal desires are you referring to?

a. raping children
b. stealing
c. murder
d. homosexuality
e. lying
f. all the above
g. zoophilia
h. none of the above
i. one of the above
j. which of the above

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I feel like most of the ex-Christians give two reasons why they bailed on Jesus. Usually the first one they give is a well thought out, intellectually impressive response to certain doctrinal issues they have. The second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.

You can think that, and non-Christians can think that the only reason why you and other Christians think remain so is that you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions.

I don't presume that about Christians, and many other non-Christians that I know don't presume that, since it's really unfair and insulting. I would invite you to re-examine your assumptions on the intentions of former Christians.

I didn't "bail" on Jesus. I would invite him in to my house, sit down with him over a cup of tea, and have a great converation with him. As far as I'm concerned, he's all right.

 

[Father Heathen]

The problem is that so often in life people aren't even being honest with themselves. If someone isn't being honest with himself/herself how can he or she be honest with me?

Oh, the irony.

Honesty is usually the reason people leave Christianity. Those who wallow in willful ignorance are the ones who are being dishonest with themselves.

 

[Father Heathen]

I feel like most of the ex-Christians give two reasons why they bailed on Jesus. Usually the first one they give is a well thought out, intellectually impressive response to certain doctrinal issues they have. The second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.

I doubt many, if any, gave carnal desires as their reason for leaving Christianity. "They just want to live a life of sin" is usually what Christians tell themselves because they can't stand the suggestion that their beliefs are anything other than perfect and desirable.

Besides, since when has Christians ever let their beliefs get in the way of their carnal desires? Premarital sex, adultry, etc. as long as isn't with someone of the same sex. The majority of Christians are more concerned with the sins of others than they are with their own.

 

[thau]

I feel like most of the ex-Christians give two reasons why they bailed on Jesus. Usually the first one they give is a well thought out, intellectually impressive response to certain doctrinal issues they have. The second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.

Generally speaking, and for a large segment of the group you are referring to, I agree with what you are saying. The world is not so clever as they think of themselves, nor are they near as honorable and charitable as they like to think of themselves, either. (me included)

I am also not impressed with these counter arguments around here, by and large. It causes me to not want to elaborate on any points I have made. No one seems to care enough.

 

[thau]

Those who wallow in willful ignorance are the ones who are being dishonest with themselves.

Oh, the irony.

 

[uu_sage]

As a liberal Christian who was once an ex-Christian, I can give some insight as to why some people join the church alumni society. Many ex Christians were mistreated very badly at the hands of Conservative Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism, or Conservative Catholicism and the narrow doctrines and social beliefs in those churches could not align with reason, conscience and experience. The God they encountered in those traditions looked too much like the worst in humankind (reflecting humanity's prejudices, fears and limitations) rather than experiencing the unconditional love and grace of God that Jesus bore witness to. I apologize for all in the body of Christ who have misused scripture as a weapon and a tool of division, I apologize for all those in the body of Christ who have denied God's revelation in science, other religions and in nature. I apologize for all in the body of Christ who have limited God's grace and love to only those who think, act, believe or love like they do. I apologize for all those who have bastardized Jesus' teachings to reflect tribalism and their own narrow interest. I apologize for all those who have mistreated the environment and held it in contempt. I apologize for the homophobes, the racists, misogynists and other bigots who have dragged Christ's and God's names into hatred.

 

[Alceste]

As a liberal Christian who was once an ex-Christian, I can give some insight as to why some people join the church alumni society. Many ex Christians were mistreated very badly at the hands of Conservative Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism, or Conservative Catholicism and the narrow doctrines and social beliefs in those churches could not align with reason, conscience and experience. The God they encountered in those traditions looked too much like the worst in humankind (reflecting humanity's prejudices, fears and limitations) rather than experiencing the unconditional love and grace of God that Jesus bore witness to. I apologize for all in the body of Christ who have misused scripture as a weapon and a tool of division, I apologize for all those in the body of Christ who have denied God's revelation in science, other religions and in nature. I apologize for all in the body of Christ who have limited God's grace and love to only those who think, act, believe or love like they do. I apologize for all those who have bastardized Jesus' teachings to reflect tribalism and their own narrow interest. I apologize for all those who have mistreated the environment and held it in contempt. I apologize for the homophobes, the racists, misogynists and other bigots who have dragged Christ's and God's names into hatred.

^
This is why we chose a UU minister to be the celebrant at our wedding.

 

[thau]

As a liberal Christian who was once an ex-Christian, I can give some insight as to why some people join the church alumni society. Many ex Christians were mistreated very badly at the hands of Conservative Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism, or Conservative Catholicism and the narrow doctrines and social beliefs in those churches could not align with reason, conscience and experience. The God they encountered in those traditions looked too much like the worst in humankind (reflecting humanity's prejudices, fears and limitations) rather than experiencing the unconditional love and grace of God that Jesus bore witness to. I apologize for all in the body of Christ who have misused scripture as a weapon and a tool of division, I apologize for all those in the body of Christ who have denied God's revelation in science, other religions and in nature. I apologize for all in the body of Christ who have limited God's grace and love to only those who think, act, believe or love like they do. I apologize for all those who have bastardized Jesus' teachings to reflect tribalism and their own narrow interest. I apologize for all those who have mistreated the environment and held it in contempt. I apologize for the homophobes, the racists, misogynists and other bigots who have dragged Christ's and God's names into hatred.

Well who doesn't like humility, and that's very honorable of your to be so kind to unbelievers and admit to our many sins. (not being sarcastic)

Now in following, I would like to apologize to God on your behalf for totallying maligning what you call "Conservative Catholicism" stands for, and what they have to done to cause division or prohibit the love of Christ going forward. You simply are being a demagogue, in my own personal opinion, and that can have dangerous ramifications.

 

[Alceste]

Well who doesn't like humility, and that's very honorable of your to be so kind to unbelievers and admit to our many sins. (not being sarcastic)

Now in following, I would like to apologize to God on your behalf for totallying maligning what you call "Conservative Catholicism" stands for, and what they have to done to cause division or prohibit the love of Christ going forward. You simply are being a demagogue, in my own personal opinion, and that can have dangerous ramifications.

Ooh, bossy.

 

[thau]

Ooh, bossy.

You are right. It's also true that I don't fare well with the sensitive types.

I prefer someone who can discuss ideas and not feel their fragile ego is at stake every time something is suggested.

 

[Alceste]

You are right. It's also true that I don't fare well with the sensitive types.

I prefer someone who can discuss ideas and not feel their fragile ego is at stake every time something is suggested.

Lol, ironic, coming from a guy who just demanded an apology from a Christian for displaying humility, repentance and tolerance.

 

[Nakosis]

Ooh, bossy.

Don't you think it a little rude to go about apologizing for someone else?

Don't want anyone apologizing for me any more then I'd want someone else paying for my sins.

 

[thau]

Lol, ironic, coming from a guy who just demanded an apology from a Christian for displaying humility, repentance and tolerance.

My dear, no one needs to apologize to me for their beliefs or actions, nor was I hinting at that in any way. What I meant in my comment should have been obvious: that is, this UU fellow was making some sweeping accusations as to what "Conservative Catholicism" teaches or preaches and in the way he put it (or apologized) it further implies (to me) that such a theology has been detrirmental to the advancement of the cause of Christ. To that, I found great folly.

 

[Alceste]

Don't you think it a little rude to go about apologizing for someone else?

Don't want anyone apologizing for me any more then I'd want someone else paying for my sins.

Rude? I don't know. When our government apologized to First Nations communities for the residential school program it was a good thing. I suppose it depends whether you perceive liberal Christianity and conservative Christianity as part of the same church. If so, it may seem reasonable for a member of the church to apologize for the social harm it has done. If not, it would seem presumptuous. I perceive them as different religions, but it seems UU sage perceives all Christian churches as one "body", so I understand his desire to apologize on behalf of the church.

We'll never get anywhere waiting for the RCC to apologize for anything themselves or admit any wrongdoing, whether witch burnings or institutional pedophilia.

 

[Nakosis]

Rude? I don't know. When our government apologized to First Nations communities for the residential school program it was a good thing.

I'm sure the people involved in that thought they were doing a good thing. I suspect most people do what they do because they think it a good thing.

I suppose it depends whether you perceive liberal Christianity and conservative Christianity as part of the same church. If so, it may seem reasonable for a member of the church to apologize for the social harm it has done. If not, it would seem presumptuous. I perceive them as different religions, but it seems UU sage perceives all Christian churches as one "body", so I understand his desire to apologize on behalf of the church.

We'll never get anywhere waiting for the RCC to apologize for anything themselves or admit any wrongdoing, whether witch burnings or institutional pedophilia.

All them Catholics thought they were doing a good thing too.

If you and I happen to have different morals, who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

If I don't agree with your morals should I take it upon myself to apologize to others for the moral values you happen to have?

 

[waitasec]

Now in following, I would like to apologize to God on your behalf for totallying maligning what you call "Conservative Catholicism"

i would like to apologize to all of humanity for your insistence of promoting blind faith as a virtue.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Well who doesn't like humility, and that's very honorable of your to be so kind to unbelievers and admit to our many sins. (not being sarcastic)

Now in following, I would like to apologize to God on your behalf for totallying maligning what you call "Conservative Catholicism" stands for, and what they have to done to cause division or prohibit the love of Christ going forward. You simply are being a demagogue, in my own personal opinion, and that can have dangerous ramifications.

This just illustrates how the word "Christian" has been watered down to the point of hardly meaning anything anymore. If the poster you're quoting adheres to UU doctrine this is a person who denies the diety of Jesus. IMO it's downright dishonest for such people to attempt to speak for the Church or apologize on behalf of the Church

 

[Quagmire]

I do not believe you see at all, sorry to say. I think you are intelligent and cordial, but when it comes to trying to disprove the deity of Jesus Christ,

Show me where I've tried to do that?

And bear in mind I'm asking you to show me, not tell me, or say "it seemed like you were saying. . ."

This is the internet, everything we say is right there where anyone can quote it as it is.

many of your talents and integrity (to a point) are left behind. You and they have no legitimate objections or reasons to maintain doubt to particular documented miracle claims or more importantly to all of the other historical and reasons for Christianity.

Other than the 142 pages of legitimate objections that you've failed to refute in this thread you mean?

Consequently, these exchanges tend to spiral downward from that.

You're being shown things you'd rather not see. That's where that spiraling downward feeling is coming from.

I will not worry about it, and it appears you will not either.

Actually, as far as I'm concerned these threads are mostly for the audience. As I mentioned earlier one of the main things that made me look outside of Christianity for answers was the hypocrisy, the intentional and perpetual communal self-deception about so many things (and not just doctrine or dogma), the paranoia, and the misanthropic world view that I saw as an actual codified and sanctioned attitude among it's followers.

All that along with the evasion, aversion, and ultimately angry indignation I got in response to sincere questions.

I've always believed that real faith should be a living, growing, organic aspect of a sincere seekers psychology. The Faith I saw within the walls of most of the churches I went into, being demonstrated by most of the people there, was a dead, stagnant, meaningless mockery of all that.

I'm hoping that when someone comes into RF looking for something the way I was looking for answers and understanding in the pre-cyber world, they'll have as wide a selection of ideas and ideologies as possible, and hopefully they'll be able to make some determinations about those ideas and ideologies based on the the typical behaviors and habits of the people presenting and defending them.

I consider it an axiom that Truth doesn't need to be defended with dissembling, or evasion, or propaganda, or really, any tactics at all, and that if we see anyone resorting to those tactics, it's a safe bet that whatever they're selling, it isn't truth.

 

[Vadergirl123]

It isn't that my relationship with Christ ended its that I ceased believing much of what Christianity teaches about Christ. I considered myself a Christo Pagan for some time, but now I consider myself just Kemetic specifically. Jesus is one of my spiritual teachers, as Kemetics do have those. I do not believe in Christianity. Interestingly though, I've never declared my wish to the Episcopal Church to break my church membership. I'm probably still Anglican in that way, but not in good standing. I go a few times a year. Sometimes I take the sacrament, but I don't think I'm Christian by Faith.

Gotcha and that's very interesting. I don't know anything about Kemetics.

Right, so can you see now the problem I have with your statement "they had the chance to know God but didn't" and your inferrence that therefore they deserved punishment?

Yes I can see how you'd have a problem with that statement, but God won't punish people who don't have a chance to know him.

As I have explained repeatedly God could have done literally anything rather than wipe them out. Why is it that you seem to think an infinitely wise, omnipotent being would have problems taking care of a civilization of people going against his wishes without the need to wipe out their entire society. That's utterly ludicrous.

Why do you seem to think that God had no right to punish sin? I've already said that yes he could've done something else. However for him to have let the sin slide by and his chosen people to have their hearts turned away from him would've been inconsistent with his character.

Nor does your God.

Yes he does, but again you don't have to follow/obey him. It's your life.

You're completely avoiding the point and making excuses for something you know is utterly insane.

Avoiding the point? I answered your question of what else he could''ve done.

You know that what God supposedly did was reprehensible, and yet you're making special allowances with these incredibly weak arguments.

Nope, what the Midianites did was reprehensible to God. Sin is reprehensible to him.

Please, just try and assess this as a reasonable, rational person would and tell me that it is sensible to believe in the existence of a supposedly loving God who sees fit to go into a genocidal rage just because some people chose not to follow him. It makes no sense, no matter what flimsy logic you use to try and support it.

I don't know which god you're thinking of. The biblical God can't stand sin, and as I said he has every right to punish it.
So to answer your question then yes a loving God can punish sin, which is what God does. Again you're NOT understanding how reprehensible sin is to him.

Good thing God doesn't exist, then, otherwise that would be crazy.

Haha you don't have to believe in him(he;s not going to force you too), and yes it must look crazy to you.

The point is the punishment doesn't fit the crime,

Yes it does, as I've said before you're not grasping just how much God can't stand sin. To you sin is almost no big deal, but God doesn't think that way.

nor does it fit a supposedly all-powerful all-loving God, nor does it make any rational sense whatsoever. Stop repeating such nonsense.

An all-loving God would punish sin, he can't stand it remember, but he's also very merciful in giving us the chance to have our sins forgiven. Could you imagine a world where sin was never punished?

Good. Then you shouldn't either.

Nah, I have no reason to not believe in God

And, as I've already said before, God could have easily prevented both. Do you even read my posts?

Yes and I agreed with you. Did you read my posts?

Yes, they were,

Hmm they may be inoccent to you, but not to God, and God's not like you.

and no amount of obfuscation will change the fact that God killed millions of men, women and children who didn't do a damn thing wrong in their lives

God did kill them, but whoa!! Are you sure you want to say they NEVER did anything wrong? You really beleive not one of those people ever lied, stole, or commited adultery?

Your inane psychology of "everyone has sinned therefore everyone deserves to die" is utterly insubstantial and sickeningly self-deprocating. Give yourself, and humanity, more respect than that.

You don't believe that everyone(at some point in their lives) has done,said, or thought of aything that goes against God? I've never heard of anyone like this?