Koran v. Bible

[Reverend Richard]

First of all the Quran was not talking about specific happenings or describing the live of Mohammed(saws). Secondly Mohammed(saws) let the companions recite before him until he accepted they did it correctly.

Now lets come to conclusions if a Text is memorized and recited by the same person over and over and all the other people who memorized and recited in the same way agreed on the recitation and memorizing then its reliable right?

So your argument is that because there is no universal religion God doesn't exist or there was no real revelation?
I agree but this is not relevant.

Good morning, F0uad.

Wow! There has been much discussion since I left yesterday!

F0uad, thanks for engaging me in this discussion, but I suspect we will have to agree to disagree – especially when it comes to the reliability of scripture – whether that scripture is from Islam, Judaism, or Christianity.

I will summarize my general attitude toward ALL scripture, regardless of which religion it comes from. All scripture was recited, or written down by humans and is therefore unreliable. It matters not if the scripture comes from a single source, like Muhammad in the tradition of Islam, or from multiple authors as in the case of the Christian Bible. Your belief that having multiple people, all hearing and reciting the same verses together in unison sounds like a reliable method of transmission. However, in my view, as the number of people involved goes up, even in an attempt to “purify” scripture, the less reliable it becomes - especially if this method of transmission is continued over a number of year. The more people involved over an increasing period of time, the less reliable it becomes, even in cases where recitation is used.

You also mentioned “Universal Religion” in your response. I do not believe there will ever be a universal religion , and I hope there never will be. Whether that religion is Islam or Christianity or Buddhism, I hope that NEVER happens. Why? Because I believe the diversity of religious beliefs is a gift from God. Our diversity of beliefs admittedly causes much grief and suffering, but that diversity is also a way each of us, in our own culture and in our own way, can approach God in a one-on-one relationship. The grief and suffering religion brings comes from the ego of man, from man’s arrogance that MY particular religion is the true religion. Religion itself is just words and belief. It’s how we carry out those beliefs that cause trouble in the world.

I also believe we should each have the choice to NOT believe. This too is a freedom that I believe all human beings should have. Even the Quran states there should never be any compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256).

Martin Luther, who was instrumental in the Protestant Reformation once said, “Every man must do two things alone; he must do his own believing and his own dying.” In the end that indeed is the case for each of us, regardless of our faith, or our lack of it.

 

[1robin]

Good morning, F0uad.

Wow! There has been much discussion since I left yesterday!

F0uad, thanks for engaging me in this discussion, but I suspect we will have to agree to disagree – especially when it comes to the reliability of scripture – whether that scripture is from Islam, Judaism, or Christianity.

I will summarize my general attitude toward ALL scripture, regardless of which religion it comes from. All scripture was recited, or written down by humans and is therefore unreliable. It matters not if the scripture comes from a single source, like Muhammad in the tradition of Islam, or from multiple authors as in the case of the Christian Bible. Your belief that having multiple people, all hearing and reciting the same verses together in unison sounds like a reliable method of transmission. However, in my view, as the number of people involved goes up, even in an attempt to “purify” scripture, the less reliable it becomes - especially if this method of transmission is continued over a number of year. The more people involved over an increasing period of time, the less reliable it becomes, even in cases where recitation is used.

You also mentioned “Universal Religion” in your response. I do not believe there will ever be a universal religion , and I hope there never will be. Whether that religion is Islam or Christianity or Buddhism, I hope that NEVER happens. Why? Because I believe the diversity of religious beliefs is a gift from God. Our diversity of beliefs admittedly causes much grief and suffering, but that diversity is also a way each of us, in our own culture and in our own way, can approach God in a one-on-one relationship. The grief and suffering religion brings comes from the ego of man, from man’s arrogance that MY particular religion is the true religion. Religion itself is just words and belief. It’s how we carry out those beliefs that cause trouble in the world.

I also believe we should each have the choice to NOT believe. This too is a freedom that I believe all human beings should have. Even the Quran states there should never be any compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256).

Martin Luther, who was instrumental in the Protestant Reformation once said, “Every man must do two things alone; he must do his own believing and his own dying.” In the end that indeed is the case for each of us, regardless of our faith, or our lack of it.

Hello Reverend Richard. I am involved in too many discussions to start another one but I wanted to ask a quick question. I am a Christian so I will use it as the example. Why would you think that God would not exercise a level of preservation and accuracy in his word even if written by human. Would he allow the dilluting of the most important and costly message in human history? It makes perfect sense that he would want to maintain the integrity of the record of his dealings with humans and our plan for salvation. You might counter that we do have innacuracies so apparently God isn't doing this. I would offer that God would not extend his guidence to every person who attempted to translate or create a bible version. That is why you can find about 5% difference between bibles and the oldest codex'. However as textual scholars have pointed out they believe we still have 100% of the original contained in the manuscript tradition mixed in with a small number of additional inaccurate texts. By the way are you an orthedox Christian or some new age religion or philosophy? I don't know what new thought means.

 

[BruceDLimber]

... so you deny Abdhullah ...

You really need to recognize and use the correct spelling so the rest of us can understand what you're trying to say!

In particular, two of the individuals in Baha'i history are:

• Baha'u'llah (meaning "Glory of God"), the Divine Messenger Who founded the Baha'i Faith

• 'Abdu'l-Baha (meaning "Servant of the Glory"), His son and appointed successor, who headed the Baha'i Faith from 1892 to 1921.

Unfortunately, it's not clear which of the two you're actually trying to speak of.

So please take the time to clarify this in your posting by using the correct spelling for each of these.

Thank you!

Bruce

 

[Reverend Richard]

Hello Reverend Richard. I am involved in too many discussions to start another one but I wanted to ask a quick question. I am a Christian so I will use it as the example. Why would you think that God would not exercise a level of preservation and accuracy in his word even if written by human. Would he allow the dilluting of the most important and costly message in human history?

Hello, 1robin. Your last question is exactly why I doubt any scripture that claims to be either the correct one, or the only true one. God Himself does not make mistakes. But, humans do. IMHO, Holy scripture is man's attempt to explain and understand who God is, but in the end it is just that - an attempt. Someone may be inspired to write scripture and record his personal experience of his encounter with the God, but that is the best man can do is record his own personal experience of the divine, and do their best to put that into words. For Christians of course, Jesus was God incarnate, but what I find interesting is that Jesus never wrote a single word of scripture - at least not that has been uncovered. Instead, Jesus (God) depended on his disciples to record his teachings, and even then these teachings were not written down until at least a couple of decades after he ascended into heaven. How reliable is your memory of an event almost 20 years after the fact?

It makes perfect sense that he would want to maintain the integrity of the record of his dealings with humans and our plan for salvation. You might counter that we do have innacuracies so apparently God isn't doing this. I would offer that God would not extend his guidence to every person who attempted to translate or create a bible version.

Exactly! So why didn't God maintain that integrity by having Jesus himself leave a codified record of how we should believe and how we should worship? In fact Bible scholars, even Christian scholars, do no necessarily believe that the books of the New Testament were written by the names attributed to them - in particular the Synoptic Gospels of M, M, L and J. However, the more devout Christian scholars wave off inconsistencies, label them as minor, and label the Gospels as "divinely inspired" and therefore taken as literally without error. That's about the same as saying it's all "magic".

That is why you can find about 5% difference between bibles and the oldest codex'. However as textual scholars have pointed out they believe we still have 100% of the original contained in the manuscript tradition mixed in with a small number of additional inaccurate texts.

5% difference? Please provide a reference for how that percentage was calculated. 100% of the original? Again provide a reference for that percentage. Much of what was written about Jesus and his teaching is lost. Any scholarly research on Christianity reveals that the early Christian church contained a rich diversity of interpretations regarding who Jesus was, and what his mission was here on earth. It is a well-know fact that the early Church Fathers, in their zeal to "purify" the Bible and maintain orthodoxy, tracked down (and when possible, destroyed) any scripture that they considered heretical. In fact there is term for those whose mission it was to discredit the competition, they were known as Heresiologists. The relatively recent (1940s) discovery of the Gnostic Gospels is just a small part of the evidence that these competing Gospels did exist. There were also other competing Gospels that we will never see because the writing of the Heresiologist mention them in their condemnations, but those Gospels were either destroyed or surpressed by the Early Church.

By the way are you an orthedox Christian or some new age religion or philosophy? I don't know what new thought means.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist family, and in fact several of my uncles and cousins are Baptist ministers. New Thought is a movement that started in the 1800's as an offshoot of Christianity and has gained increasing traction in the 20th and 21st century. There is a good summary of New Thought on Wikipedia, but as usual the Wiki doesn't completely cover the diversity of New Thought philosophy. I was ordained as a New Thought minister a little over a year ago and I primarly officiate funerals and weddings.

 

[BruceDLimber]

For the record, the Baha'i scriptures explicitly disparage miracles as "proofs" of anything except possibly for eyewitnesses (and even they can be deceived); hence the prohibition on our citing them as proofs.

[to a third party] That is one of the tests yes. Another is 100% accuracy of prophecy.... ([That] probably rules out your prophet.

You can say this only from ignorance because apparently, you have no idea what prophecies Baha'u'llah made and how a number of them have already been fulfilled!

I'll be more than happy to post a list of them here if you like; if you'd like to be knowledgeable about this (always a virtue!), please ask.

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

Not in our view!

t seems Baha i is trying to gain legitamacy by attaching itself to more established and accepted faiths without providing independant reasons for it's own inspiration.

Right.

That's why the Baha'i Faith has fully 200 volumes of its own scriptures, roughly half of which are by Baha'u'llah!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Yeah sure. It looks to me that your messenger had a agenda.

He sure did!!

Specifically, UNITY:

• The Oneness of God
• The oneness of humanity
• The oneness of religions

To quote Shakespeare,
"'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished!"



Best,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

The provision of an explicitly unific, non-political administrative system.

J]ust in bahaullah's dreams.

You are obviously unfamiliar with the Baha'i administrative system and how it works!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I will summarize my general attitude toward ALL scripture, regardless of which religion it comes from. All scripture was recited, or written down by humans and is therefore unreliable.

Except that in the Baha'i view Baha'u'llah, Founder of the Baha'i Faith, was a Divine Messenger (like Jesus, Muhammad, and others) and produced 100 volumes of our scriptures Himself, either by writing them directly or by dictating them and then checking & sealing them. So I can't agree that "all" scripture is "unreliable."

You can see these, please note, at these sites:

• Bahá'í Library Online (click "Writings")
• Baha'i Reference Library (this site is multilingual)

You also mentioned “Universal Religion” in your response. I do not believe there will ever be a universal religion , and I hope there never will be. Whether that religion is Islam or Christianity or Buddhism, I hope that NEVER happens. Why? Because I believe the diversity of religious beliefs is a gift from God

.

You overlook the fact that Baha'is also promote both universal religion AND diversity!

Precisely why one of our slogans is "Unity in diversity!"

Best!

Bruce

 

[Reverend Richard]

Except that in the Baha'i view Baha'u'llah, Founder of the Baha'i Faith, was a Divine Messenger (like Jesus, Muhammad, and others) and produced 100 volumes of our scriptures Himself, either by writing them directly or by dictating them and then checking & sealing them. So I can't agree that "all" scripture is "unreliable."

Thanks Bruce. I see little difference in your claim of the message of Baha'u'llah being without error, versus the claims of Christians and Muslims. No offense intended, but it seems to me that Baha'i scripture would be as unreliable as any other.

Claims of a single messager who wrote massive amounts of scripture holds little sway, and sounds very similar to claims Muslims make regarding Mohammad's perfect recitation of the Quran.

You overlook the fact that Baha'is also promote both universal religion AND diversity!

Precisely why one of our slogans is "Unity in diversity!"

Best!

Bruce

Many religions claim to promote religious diversity. (I once heard the Dalai Lama say that perhaps there were enough Buddhists in the world). So why should one choose the Baha'i faith over any other?

 

[1robin]

"Because to recieve this truth requires what most Christians including me find hard to do. We must live an obedient life, full of quiet intrespection, and of attentiveness to God free of false tradition. That being said virtually all Christian denominations agree on most doctrine they usually differ on secondary doctinal issues. So truth varies directly with obedience and faith. Most Christians are not extremely obedient and so have areas where truth eludes them. "

But it seems you are adding something to the verse of the Bible. You are adding a condition "Because to recieve this truth requires what most Christians including me find hard to do."
The verse does not say this. The verse says "whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak "
You can offcourse have your interpretation.

It is more common sence than interpretation. If two students sit in the same class one quiet and attentive and one distracted and unattentive then it is evident that the last one will have a completely different and inaccurate grasp of the teachers lesson. There is no way around this. In the same vein some denominations value tradition over revelation and so exclude their responsiveness to the spirit on purpose.


As can be seen here:
To understand what it means to grieve the Spirit, we must first understand that this indicates the Spirit possesses personality. Only a person can be grieved; therefore, the Spirit must be a divine person in order to have this emotion. Once we understand this, we can better understand how He is grieved, mainly because we too are grieved. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we should not grieve the Spirit. We grieve the Spirit by living like the pagans (4:17-19), by lying (4:25), by being angry (4:26-27), by stealing (4:28), by cursing (4:29), by being bitter (4:31), by being unforgiving (4:32), and by being sexually immoral (5:3-5). To grieve the Spirit is to act out in a sinful manner, whether it is in thought only or in both thought and deed.

Both quenching and grieving the Spirit are similar in their effects. Both hinder a godly lifestyle. Both happen when a believer sins against God and follows his or her own worldly desires. The only correct road to follow is the road that leads the believer closer to God and purity, and farther away from the world and sin. Just as we do not like to be grieved, and just as we do not seek to quench what is good—so we should not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit by refusing to follow His leading.
What does it mean to grieve / quench the Holy Spirit?

This is point blank. It is possible to grieve the spirit through dissobedience and thereby loose his council. My words.


Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)? Romans 6: 16

If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father's commandments and live on in His love. John 15: 10
Scriptures On Obedience


I could supply countless verses that illustrate that obedience is necessary for the intimacy with God which allows him to speak through the spirit to the believer. There are even historical examples of this happening over and over in the bible. Check out David, Solomon, the Hebrews etc..... Once again you seem to have a very innacurate grasp of biblical theology.

"That being said virtually all Christian denominations agree on most doctrine they usually differ on secondary doctinal issues."

But even if virtually all christians agree on something, does not mean, it is true. So what? ALL jews agree that Jesus was not the true Messiah that their Book says.

I didn't say that it did mean it was true. My statement was in the context of a response to your incorrect assertion that since Christians have dissagremments about scripture then the holy spirit is not talking to us.

"So what? It is virtually a universal conclusion that those WITNESSES are who I said they were and you haven't given any reason they are not."

Well, I don't think it is a universal conclusion that agrees who the Witnesses are.

It is the most prevelant concensus among new testament scholars. Regardless as you will see this doesn't matter.

Baha'i Scriptures Proves those two are Muhammad and Ali, whose religion lasted 1260 years. Baha'i faith was stablished exactly 1260 years after Islam.

Wrong, Baha i claims they are, but doesn't prove anything. I have no idea what the 1260 years is about. The book that the actual prophecy is in doesn't even mention the names of Muhammad or Ali so the claims of baha i cannot be true. You can't just invent a new religion and reinterpret the scriptures of a different religion and claim that is proof. It is desperation. At one time you posted that Moses and Elijah did not do every thing that these two witnesses are supposed to and so they were not the prophets. While that is an incorrect analysis, your statements above fails it anyway. Muhammad and Ali never did any of the things mentioned in revelations. Of course that is a stupid way to evaluate this prophecy but atleast Moses and Elijah had performed many of these predicted actions before. So by your own standard your interpretation fails again.

Even among the Christians, there is no agreement who are those two.
If you read the interpretations given here from Christian scholars, you'll see each one gives a different interpretation:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

I aware of the various interpretations that exist however most of them conclude Moses and Elijah are the ones for very good reasons. None of them nor virtually any mainstream scholar believes it was Muhammad and Ali. Since Muhammad isn't in the bible but has characteristics consistent with what the bible calls the anti-Christ then this idea is nuts. He claimed what the bible said the anti-Christ would claim word for word.

Firstly the Book of Revelation, is a prophecy Book, which by definition is for future event, It is based on visions of future. moreover, even if you find some vague similarity, it doesn't prove your point.
How did they fulfill this:
"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

I can't believe you are asking this. Why are you asking me how they fulfilled something that hasn't been done yet. This will happen at the end time.

Many Scholars, agree that each Day is One year, thus 3 and half day is 1260 years.

I am aware of this principle however not every day is a year some are, some aren't. For example are you suggesting their bodies were left unburied for 3.5 years. Or that Muhammad and Ali are going to prophecy for 1260 years.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You said that Muslim leaders give us false interpretations but muslims do not follow ''Muslim Leaders'' what are Muslim leaders define it please. We follow the Hadiths and Tasfeer what was passed down by Mohammed(saws) and hes companions not interpretations of certain people.

Except you have no proof which Hadithes are Authentic. Also Quran does not instruct you to use Hadithes, simply because, they are not infallible.

And, Quran says, God asked Muhammad not to explain everything but leave it for God to reveal it's meaning in the Next Revelation.

Lol it means they are not there otherwhise help me find them in a original translation that does not come from Rodwell and can be found online.

It means those verses would give you trouble, so you don't want to find them!

Give me the verse and ill give you the references from the Tasfeer

explaining it.

I had already given you the verses in another thread. Go look there again!

Yeah sure

It looks to me that your messenger had a agenda.

You mean a mission from God to resurrect the Dead?

Lol look at my previous posts Muslims do not agree on all Hadiths since they are not all Authentic they agree on Authentic Hadiths what seems obvious.

Do all sects of Islam, such as Sunni and Shia, agree which Hadithes are Authentic? You are the first one who I heard saying this.

You make no sense and contradict the stories about the Day of Judgement in the quran and authentic hadiths.

The Judgement Day is not a story. It is a fact!
and you are mixing up 2 different things. One is the Day of Judgement, another is the life to come in the spiritual Worlds of God, which starts right after a person dies. Two different things!




I answer with verses with corresponding verses in Baha’I Scriptures:

"So withdraw from them (O Muhammad) on the day when the Summoner summoneth unto a painful thing." Quran 54:6

“Thus do We recount unto thee that which the hands of the infidels have wrought, they who, in the Day of Resurrection, have turned their face away from the divine Presence, whom God hath tormented with the fire of their own misbelief, and for whom He hath prepared in the world to come a chastisement which shall devour both their bodies and souls.” Iqan, p.72


“ Then, when the Trumpet is sounded; Truly, that Day will be a Hard Day, Far from easy for the disbelievers “ (Quran 74:8-10);

“Speed out of your sepulchers. How long will ye sleep? The second blast hath been blown on the trumpet. On whom are ye gazing? This is your Lord, the God of Mercy. Witness how ye gainsay His signs! “ Gleansings


You see how hard it is for disbeliever to recognize the Revelation in this Day?. Far from easy!


“But when there comes the greatest catastrophe (i.e. the Day of Recompense, etc.), The Day when man shall remember what he strove for, And Hell-fire shall be made apparent in full view for one who sees” (Quran 79:34-36)

One who sees. Not the ones that are shut out as by a veil!


“Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.” Gleansings

“And those who have been bestowed with knowledge and faith will say: "Indeed you have stayed according to the Decree of Allah, until the Day of Resurrection, so this is the Day of Resurrection, but you knew not.”
Yes, the period of the Ummah of Muhammad, according to Quran and Hadithes was One thousand years. Now, You are replaced with another people as the verse of Quran said. So you stayed till the Day of Resurrection.
Yes, this is the Day of Resurrection, but you knew not!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is more common sence than interpretation. If two students sit in the same class one quiet and attentive and one distracted and unattentive then it is evident that the last one will have a completely different and inaccurate grasp of the teachers lesson. There is no way around this. In the same vein some denominations value tradition over revelation and so exclude their responsiveness to the spirit on purpose.


As can be seen here:
To understand what it means to grieve the Spirit, we must first understand that this indicates the Spirit possesses personality. Only a person can be grieved; therefore, the Spirit must be a divine person in order to have this emotion. Once we understand this, we can better understand how He is grieved, mainly because we too are grieved. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we should not grieve the Spirit. We grieve the Spirit by living like the pagans (4:17-19), by lying (4:25), by being angry (4:26-27), by stealing (4:28), by cursing (4:29), by being bitter (4:31), by being unforgiving (4:32), and by being sexually immoral (5:3-5). To grieve the Spirit is to act out in a sinful manner, whether it is in thought only or in both thought and deed.

Both quenching and grieving the Spirit are similar in their effects. Both hinder a godly lifestyle. Both happen when a believer sins against God and follows his or her own worldly desires. The only correct road to follow is the road that leads the believer closer to God and purity, and farther away from the world and sin. Just as we do not like to be grieved, and just as we do not seek to quench what is good—so we should not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit by refusing to follow His leading.
What does it mean to grieve / quench the Holy Spirit?

This is point blank. It is possible to grieve the spirit through dissobedience and thereby loose his council. My words.


Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)? Romans 6: 16

If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father's commandments and live on in His love. John 15: 10
Scriptures On Obedience


I could supply countless verses that illustrate that obedience is necessary for the intimacy with God which allows him to speak through the spirit to the believer. There are even historical examples of this happening over and over in the bible. Check out David, Solomon, the Hebrews etc..... Once again you seem to have a very innacurate grasp of biblical theology.

I didn't say that it did mean it was true. My statement was in the context of a response to your incorrect assertion that since Christians have dissagremments about scripture then the holy spirit is not talking to us.


It is the most prevelant concensus among new testament scholars. Regardless as you will see this doesn't matter.


Wrong, Baha i claims they are, but doesn't prove anything. I have no idea what the 1260 years is about. The book that the actual prophecy is in doesn't even mention the names of Muhammad or Ali so the claims of baha i cannot be true. You can't just invent a new religion and reinterpret the scriptures of a different religion and claim that is proof. It is desperation. At one time you posted that Moses and Elijah did not do every thing that these two witnesses are supposed to and so they were not the prophets. While that is an incorrect analysis, your statements above fails it anyway. Muhammad and Ali never did any of the things mentioned in revelations. Of course that is a stupid way to evaluate this prophecy but atleast Moses and Elijah had performed many of these predicted actions before. So by your own standard your interpretation fails again.





I aware of the various interpretations that exist however most of them conclude Moses and Elijah are the ones for very good reasons. None of them nor virtually any mainstream scholar believes it was Muhammad and Ali. Since Muhammad isn't in the bible but has characteristics consistent with what the bible calls the anti-Christ then this idea is nuts. He claimed what the bible said the anti-Christ would claim word for word.

I can't believe you are asking this. Why are you asking me how they fulfilled something that hasn't been done yet. This will happen at the end time.


I am aware of this principle however not every day is a year some are, some aren't. For example are you suggesting their bodies were left unburied for 3.5 years. Or that Muhammad and Ali are going to prophecy for 1260 years.

You are mixing up 2 different terms. One is "Holy Spirit" another is "Spirit of Truth".
You have no proof these two are the same thing. There is no verse in Bible which says, "Holy Spirit" and "Spirit of Truth" are the same. So, this is only your intepretation.
Moreover, the Bible was sealed as Bible says, so you won't know, now it is unsealed for Baha'is. Refer to Baha'i Scriptures to learn the correct interpretations!

"I am aware of this principle however not every day is a year some are, some aren't. For example are you suggesting their bodies were left unburied for 3.5 years. Or that Muhammad and Ali are going to prophecy for 1260 years."

No, I don't mean their bodies were left for 3.5 years unburried!
You should read what is in the Some Answered Questions to explain what it means.

Peace!

 

[1robin]

You are mixing up 2 different terms. One is "Holy Spirit" another is "Spirit of Truth".

You have no proof these two are the same thing. There is no verse in Bible which says, "Holy Spirit" and "Spirit of Truth" are the same. So, this is only your interpretation.

I would say good try but it wasn't.
John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.
http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/john14.html

This is clearly a reference to the Holy Spirit because only the holy spirit can and was promised to be with believers forever. No human can do this. That site contains many uncontestable reasons why the spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit.

This next site contains the most accepted commentary in history plus atleast 7 others that say the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Check for yourself.

2. This comforter is the Spirit of truth, whom you know, v. 16, 17. They might think it impossible to have a comforter equivalent to him who is the Son of God: "Yea," saith Christ, "you shall have the Spirit of God, who is equal in power and glory with the Son."
14:16 I will pray the Father. Rather, request. The Greek word eratao is not the one used when we are bidden to pray; proseuchomai is. The creature prays; the Son requests. He shall give you another Comforter. The Holy Spirit; the Helper. The latter word more nearly expresses the idea of the Greek term parakletos than the word Comforter. Abide with you for ever. The Lord had been with them over three years, but is about to depart. Henceforth he will abide with them, not in person, but by the Holy Spirit that he shall send. Through this agency he will be with his people always. http://biblecommenter.com/john/14-16.htm

The word translated "Comforter" is used in the New Testament five times. In four instances it is applied to the Holy Spirit - John 14:16, John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7. In the other instance it is applied to the Lord Jesus - 1 John 2:1

Moreover, the Bible was sealed as Bible says, so you won't know, now it is unsealed for Baha'is. Refer to Baha'i Scriptures to learn the correct interpretations!

First you argue that other things were added after the bible then you say it's sealed then you say Baha i unsealed it. I do not accept the religion of Baha i' authority concerning biblical text in the least. It is inconsistent with the bible and so is not from my God and or even Islam. I have been shown nothing within it to even argue for it's divine authorship. IMO it is just another theological sounding oriental philosophy that tries to gain legitimacy by attempting to identify with established religions when it's claims are incompatible and inaccurate with respect to these other religions. You are polite but you have made one grossly incorrect claim about the bible one after the other, your positions have changed several times concerning the same issues. Your tactics bear the marks of desperation and frustrated futility.

Many Scholars, agree that each Day is One year, thus 3 and half day is 1260 years. No, I don't mean their bodies were left for 3.5 years unburied!
You should read what is in the Some Answered Questions to explain what it means.

First of all your original statement above is mathematically incorrect. Either the days are days or years. If they are days then your claim was incorrect from the start. If they are years your claim makes no sense. Are you claiming that Muhammad and Ali will be prophesying for 1260 years and they will be unburied for 3.5 years. You can't have it both ways.
This discussion has about ran it's course. I have devoted suffecient time for both you Baha i guys to present any evidence to justify Baha i as devinely inspired. All I have actually recieved is inaccurate biblical doctrine claims and very strange unsupportable claims about your prophet or founder. It seems to rest on inaccurate and incomplete understandings of biblical and Islamic scripture as well as oriental philosophy with a touch of wishful thinking. I have as of yet not seen one single reason to take it seriously especially since my religion warns against these later attempts at religion. When Baha i has survived under intense periods of persecution by world empires, and survives the best attacks of pagan philosophers, modern intellectual elites, and all mannner of critics for several thousand years and emerges as the most believed religion in the world then I might re-evaluate my position.
I have appreciated your courtesy and civility but have grown weary of explaining simplistic biblical theology and the lack of any evidence for the devine authorship of Baha i. I am sure we will talk some more in the future.

Shalom.

 

[F0uad]

This is boring i will just ignore this thread for now until real honest questions are raised.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"I would say good try but it wasn't.
John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.
http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/john14.html

This is clearly a reference to the Holy Spirit because only the holy spirit can and was promised to be with believers forever. No human can do this. That site contains many uncontestable reasons why the spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit."

My Response:
Well you did a good job finding and relating the verses to show your point, but nice try!

Note the Word "Counselor" in that verse, and the prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ in this verse:

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light; they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. … For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.—Isa. ix, 2–7.


Many Christains believe that this Counsellor prophecised by Isa. Is Jesus. But It cannot be Jesus for at least 2 reasons:
1. Jesus never referd to Himself as the Father, He was the Son.
2. Jesus cannot be the prince of peace for obviously he said:
“I came not to send peace but a sword” Mat. 10:34


In fact this counselor, the Spirit of Truth, the Father and Prince of Peace is Baha’u’llah as can be seen, He is the one who stays in our Heart forever:

“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Baha’u’llah

“Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs.” Baha’u’llah

“Give ear unto the Voice of this trustworthy Counsellor: direct thy steps from the left unto the right, that is turn away from idle fancy unto certitude. Lead not the people into error. The divine Luminary shineth, His Cause is manifest and His signs are all-embracing.” Baha’u’llah
““Hearken unto the Voice of this benevolent Counsellor, calling aloud, unveiled and manifest, before the faces of kings and their subjects, and summon the people of the world, one and all, unto Him Who is the Lord of Eternity.” Baha’u’llah


“We have enjoined upon all mankind to establish the Most Great Peace—the surest of all means for the protection of humanity. The sovereigns of the world should, with one accord, hold fast thereunto, for this is the supreme instrument that can ensure the security and welfare of all peoples and nations. They, verily, are the manifestations of the power of God and the daysprings of His authority.” Baha’u’llah




So, As I said, the spirit of truth, is the embodiment of the Spirit, who appears as a Human. Specially note ” For unto us a child is born” whose name is counselor. So, it cannot be just the Holy Spirit, but a person who is born, embodying the Holy spirit.

“First you argue that other things were added after the bible then you say it's sealed then you say Baha i unsealed it. I do not accept the religion of Baha i' authority concerning biblical text in the least. It is inconsistent with the bible and so is not from my God and or even Islam. I have been shown nothing within it to even argue for it's divine authorship. IMO it is just another theological sounding oriental philosophy that tries to gain legitimacy by attempting to identify with established religions when it's claims are incompatible and inaccurate with respect to these other religions. You are polite but you have made one grossly incorrect claim about the bible one after the other, your positions have changed several times concerning the same issues. Your tactics bear the marks of desperation and frustrated futility. “

My Response:

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Although many Christians converted to Baha’I Faith.

“Are you claiming that Muhammad and Ali will be prophesying for 1260 years and they will be unburied for 3.5 years. You can't have it both ways.”

My Response:
No, I didn’t claim such a thing!
You can read what Baha’I Scripture says and how proves about the two prophets who were Witnesses:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-11.html.utf8

“I have appreciated your courtesy and civility but have grown weary of explaining simplistic biblical theology and the lack of any evidence for the devine authorship of Baha i. I am sure we will talk some more in the future.”

I appreciate your trying to explain the Bible, and you did a good job so far, we are learning together! Talk to you soon.

Shalom
Peace!

 

[Oryonder]

One of my favorite “scriptures” (from the Kalama Sutta, I think) comes from the Buddha when he said, “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

That is really good stuff from the Buddha .. As I believe in a rational and good God .. this would be one of the most enlightened of passages.

It seems that Buddha was not only ahead of his time .. he was ahead of ours as well.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Claims of a single messager who wrote massive amounts of scripture holds little sway, and sounds very similar to claims Muslims make regarding Mohammad's perfect recitation of the Quran.

We see a clear difference there!

So why should one choose the Baha'i faith over any other?

For the simple reason that its social teachings are for THIS Age, not one millenia ago! And its two hundred volumes of scripture expound these in great detail.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[1robin]

My Response:
Well you did a good job finding and relating the verses to show your point, but nice try!

Note the Word "Counselor" in that verse, and the prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ in this verse:

You are getting several different things confused. Every use of the word Counseler is not equivalent. God the father, Christ, and the holy spirit are all referred to as councelor. As coequal members of the God head that is an obvious necessity.

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light; they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. … For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.—Isa. ix, 2–7.

This verse is not using father as a title but as a desription implying the ownership of characteristics. It is like saying the father of ____________. It implys the ownership or the source of a characteristic.
but Christ is a Father with respect to chosen men, who were given him as his children and offspring in covenant; who are adopted into that family that is named of him, and who are regenerated by his Spirit and grace: and to these he is an "everlasting Father"; he was so from everlasting; for regeneration and faith do not make men children, but make them appear to be so; God's elect are children previous to the Spirit's work upon them, and even to the incarnation and death of Christ; adoption is an act of the will of God in covenant from eternity: and Christ is a Father to these unto everlasting; he will never die, and they shall never be left fatherless; he and they will ever continue in this relation; he as such supplies them with everlasting provisions, he clothes them with everlasting raiment, he gives them an everlasting portion, promotes them to everlasting honour, saves them with an everlasting salvation, bearing an everlasting love to them.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. There are 7 of the most accepted commentaries at this site you would save me much trouble if you would check out your interpretations there before hand.

Many Christains believe that this Counsellor prophecised by Isa. Is Jesus. But It cannot be Jesus for at least 2 reasons:
1. Jesus never referd to Himself as the Father, He was the Son.
2. Jesus cannot be the prince of peace for obviously he said:
“I came not to send peace but a sword” Mat. 10:34

This is wrong see above.

In fact this counselor, the Spirit of Truth, the Father and Prince of Peace is Baha’u’llah as can be seen, He is the one who stays in our Heart forever:

Do you think just declareing something without justification is worth doing.

“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Baha’u’llah

“Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs.” Baha’u’llah

“Give ear unto the Voice of this trustworthy Counsellor: direct thy steps from the left unto the right, that is turn away from idle fancy unto certitude. Lead not the people into error. The divine Luminary shineth, His Cause is manifest and His signs are all-embracing.” Baha’u’llah
““Hearken unto the Voice of this benevolent Counsellor, calling aloud, unveiled and manifest, before the faces of kings and their subjects, and summon the people of the world, one and all, unto Him Who is the Lord of Eternity.” Baha’u’llah


“We have enjoined upon all mankind to establish the Most Great Peace—the surest of all means for the protection of humanity. The sovereigns of the world should, with one accord, hold fast thereunto, for this is the supreme instrument that can ensure the security and welfare of all peoples and nations. They, verily, are the manifestations of the power of God and the daysprings of His authority.” Baha’u’llah

Is there anything more meaningfull here, than if I went out and wrote these same things and substituted my name for his. If this religion wants to interact with another it must supply devestatingly valid and suffecient claims for doing so. As it is it is just some guys opinion written in a theological language style similar to the religions he is trying to associate with to gain credability. It is no different from dozens of other attempts at creating a new religion.

So, As I said, the spirit of truth, is the embodiment of the Spirit, who appears as a Human. Specially note ” For unto us a child is born” whose name is counselor. So, it cannot be just the Holy Spirit, but a person who is born, embodying the Holy spirit.

You are trying to substitute a claim about Jesus for the holy spirit. The Holy spirit is never referred to as a child but they are all three referred to as councellor though. You are extremely confused.

My Response:

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Although many Christians converted to Baha’I Faith.

Even if that were true it has nothing to do with whether the faith is true or not. Christianity has 239 members for every 1 Baha i. I wish you would drop these unimpressive and meaningless statistic claims.

My Response:
No, I didn’t claim such a thing!
You can read what Baha’I Scripture says and how proves about the two prophets who were Witnesses:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-11.html.utf8

You stated that 1 day = a year. So I just did the math for you. If you do not think a day equals a years why did you state it. I cannot think of a single reason why I should assign enough credability (or any at all) to Baha i to justify reading about it.

I appreciate your trying to explain the Bible, and you did a good job so far, we are learning together! Talk to you soon.

Shalom
Peace!

You seem to still be woefully confused concerning the bible and your justification for your claims seems to morph into something new in every post. However like I said you are polite and that is rare, but like F0uad I am finding the rate of return on investment for this conversation has reached the don't bother point.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are getting several different things confused.

Then you misunderstood me.

Every use of the word Counseler is not equivalent. God the father, Christ, and the holy spirit are all referred to as councelor. As coequal members of the God head that is an obvious necessity.[/color][/size]

Yes, true. But I am talking about another counselor. It seems you are confusing the counsellor with another counsellor.

"I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor"

This verse is not using father as a title but as a desription implying the ownership of characteristics. It is like saying the father of ____________. It implys the ownership or the source of a characteristic.

this is your openion, which doesn't have any Biblical Proof.

but Christ is a Father with respect to chosen men, who were given him as his children and offspring in covenant; who are adopted into that family that is named of him, and who are regenerated by his Spirit and grace: and to these he is an "everlasting Father"; he was so from everlasting; for regeneration and faith do not make men children, but make them appear to be so; God's elect are children previous to the Spirit's work upon them, and even to the incarnation and death of Christ; adoption is an act of the will of God in covenant from eternity: and Christ is a Father to these unto everlasting; he will never die, and they shall never be left fatherless; he and they will ever continue in this relation; he as such supplies them with everlasting provisions, he clothes them with everlasting raiment, he gives them an everlasting portion, promotes them to everlasting honour, saves them with an everlasting salvation, bearing an everlasting love to them.

You are adding to Bible text to show something which has nothing to do with it.
You were unable to address what Jesus said "I did not come to bring peace,
but a sword." So, He was not the prince of peace. So, My point still holds.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



There are 7 of the most accepted commentaries at this site you would save me much trouble if you would check out your interpretations there before hand.

How do you know, those who made the seven commentaries, recieve the Holy Spirit to tell them the truth?
There are thousands commentaries that even says Jesus never existed.

This is wrong see above.

See above please.

Do you think just declareing something without justification is worth doing.

No, declaring with taking actions is Justification. Sorry, you don't know much about Baha'u'llah's teaching to appreciate.

Is there anything more meaningfull here, than if I went out and wrote these same things and substituted my name for his. If this religion wants to interact with another it must supply devestatingly valid and suffecient claims for doing so. As it is it is just some guys opinion written in a theological language style similar to the religions he is trying to associate with to gain credability. It is no different from dozens of other attempts at creating a new religion.

You can go and try making your own new religion, it has nothing to do with our discussion.

You are trying to substitute a claim about Jesus for the holy spirit. The Holy spirit is never referred to as a child but they are all three referred to as councellor though.

I never tried doing that. You misunderstood me for some reason.

You are extremely confused.

I think you are tired.

Christianity has 239 members for every 1 Baha i. I wish you would drop these unimpressive and meaningless statistic claims.

So what? They can all be wrong!
"Many are called, but few are chosen" matt. 22.14
Are you claiming to know what will happen in many many years later?

You stated that 1 day = a year. So I just did the math for you. If you do not think a day equals a years why did you state it.

I cannot think of a single reason why I should assign enough credability (or any at all) to Baha i to justify reading about it.

No, I said, if you want go read that. I didn't calculate anything for you, except 1260 years.

You seem to still be woefully confused concerning the bible and your justification for your claims seems to morph into something new in every post. However like I said you are polite and that is rare, but like F0uad I am finding the rate of return on investment for this conversation has reached the don't bother point.

I think, you are reflecting your own confusion and frustration on me. I was very clear!

However like I said you are polite and that is rare, but like F0uad I am finding the rate of return on investment for this conversation has reached the don't bother point.

But if you are unable to keep up with the discussion, that is your loss.

Peace!

 

[BruceDLimber]

Christianity has 239 members for every 1 Baha'i.

Fear not: 160 years ago there were MILLIONS of Christians and ZERO Baha'is!

And in the future, the numbers will doubtless keep shifting so that the proportion of Baha'is becomes greater and greater, and eventually surpasses the Christian numbers.

There is progress!

Bruce