Are Muslims better Christians than Christians themselves?

[Pegg]

Since prayer is to god and not to man why shouldn't woman wear it on a personal prayer? Anyway you agree that it should be on a public-praying right?

public prayer on behalf of others, yes. A woman would wear a headscarf. The reason is as a sign of her acknowledgement that she is doing what would normally be assigned to a man.

But when speaking personally to God, no. The reason is because men and women are equal in Gods eyes and a woman can speak to God on the same level a man speaks to God. She does not need to wear a sign of authority because when she is before God, she is before God as an individual worshiper and God views her on an individual basis.

 

[Pegg]

No offence, but it is strange how this post only mentions Jesus as a quote. Does your religion revere Paul above Jesus?

the entire Greek scriptures only mention Jesus as a quote... he never wrote anything down himself, so we only hear what he says through 1st or 2nd hand accounts.

And no, we do not revere anyone above Jesus.

 

[Shermana]

public prayer on behalf of others, yes. A woman would wear a headscarf. The reason is as a sign of her acknowledgement that she is doing what would normally be assigned to a man.

But when speaking personally to God, no. The reason is because men and women are equal in Gods eyes and a woman can speak to God on the same level a man speaks to God. She does not need to wear a sign of authority because when she is before God, she is before God as an individual worshiper and God views her on an individual basis.

Oh, so now you agree that it is referring to a headscarf/covering and not the hair in this sentence?

 

[F0uad]

Shermana you just have to keep insisting till they accept the fact.

 

[Doulos]

So we should forget the law?

I mean Jesus(p) told us to follow it.. but if you say so..

Does your religion teach that misrepresenting what people say is acceptable before God FOuad?

Have I said not to follow it? Here is my quote below:

Does covering your head,
or abstaining from alchohol,
or avoiding a certain food...

make you clean before God?


Is what man does with his outside important to God?
Or the cleanliness of one's heart?

"The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
(1 Samuel 16:7)


Outward appearances and practices have merit if they reflect a clean heart underneath. But man cannot see the heart.

In Jesus' time, there were those who spent much time and effort on looking pious on the outside, but their hearts were not right before God. Of them, Jesus said:

But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former (in this case charity).
(Matthew 23:23)

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
(Matthew 23:27-28)

 

[Shermana]

Doulos, do you agree that Jesus never meant for his followers to abrogate the Law of Moses?

 

[F0uad]

Does your religion teach that misrepresenting what people say is acceptable before God FOuad?

Why even go there? I concluded this because you dodged the question or not fully understand you.

In Jesus' time, there were those who spent much time and effort on looking pious on the outside, but their hearts were not right before God. Of them, Jesus said:
But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former (in this case charity).
(Matthew 23:23)

This indicates clearly that law should be followed and i think you agree don't you?

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
(Matthew 23:27-28)

Yes i agree on this since the Pharisees abused the law and used there own agenda to criticise Jesus's(p) apostles and himself for not follow it thats why Jesus(p)'s rebukes them almost everywhere in the gospels since they themselves did not follow all of it.

For example:

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.”

Now what if i would say this about the Christians would you be disagree or honestly accept it?


O i have one more question i have just discovers this today when i was going true the scriptures about these specific verses i think it was Matthew 23..

“But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.”

But in Matthew 26:25, 26:49, John 1:38 and 3:26 Jesus(p) is called Rabbi
Paul called himself a father in 1Corinithians 4:15 and Philippians 2:22
Paul also called other Christians his children in Galatians 4:19 and a teacher in 1 Timothy 2:7 and 2 Timothy 1:11.

Now i don't have the problem with Jesus(p) calling himself a Rabbi since it means teacher but surely Paul is making huge errors here?

 

[Doulos]

Does your religion teach that misrepresenting what people say is acceptable before God FOuad?

Does your religion teach that misrepresenting what people say is acceptable before God FOuad? Why even go there? I concluded this because you dodged the question or not fully understand you.

Why go there? Because an honest and humble heart is more important to God than your clothes, alchohol or logic.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
(John 4:23-24)

 

[F0uad]

Why go there? Because an honest and humble heart is more important to God than your clothes, alchohol or logic.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
(John 4:23-24)

I said maybe you were dodging the question that's why i re-acted like that or i didn't fully understand you. So i am not sure why your qouting that verse just to argue and dodge the questions again, i think you accepted the fact that the laws should be uphold if not clarify it.

 

[Doulos]

This indicates clearly that law should be followed and i think you agree don't you?

The Law should be followed, but never will be perfectly except by one man; Jesus.

The Law lays out the behaviour expected of a perfect and holy God. Because we are imperfect and sinful, no amount of effort or willpower will ever empower us to obey all the Law.

Thus the Law can never bring us close to God, or save us. Our obedience to the Law is only the result of our love for God, and our desire to obey His will in all things possible.

Yes i agree on this since the Pharisees abused the law and used there own agenda to criticise Jesus's(p) apostles and himself for not follow it thats why Jesus(p)'s rebukes them almost everywhere in the gospels since they themselves did not follow all of it.

Now what if i would say this about the Christians would you be disagree or honestly accept it?

I would say do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.</SPAN>

The commands of God are not given so that we imperfect men can judge other men. It is so that we are convicted and judge our own failure before God, and so turn to be closer to Him.

If you speak of Christians, then there are many who carry the name of 'Christian' (follower of Christ), but who do not follow Him. When they stand before Jesus at the judgement, He will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’</SPAN>

If he says this to those who have accepted his name, yet do not follow Him, how will He judge those who have not accepted his name?

 

[Doulos]

I said maybe you were dodging the question that's why i re-acted like that or i didn't fully understand you. So i am not sure why your qouting that verse just to argue and dodge the questions again, i think you accepted the fact that the laws should be uphold if not clarify it.

If you do not understand the verse, you should ask those who came before you.

 

[F0uad]

The Law should be followed, but never will be perfectly except by one man; Jesus.

The Law lays out the behaviour expected of a perfect and holy God. Because we are imperfect and sinful, no amount of effort or willpower will ever empower us to obey all the Law.

Thus the Law can never bring us close to God, or save us. Our obedience to the Law is only the result of our love for God, and our desire to obey His will in all things possible.



I would say do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.</SPAN>

The commands of God are not given so that we imperfect men can judge other men. It is so that we are convicted and judge our own failure before God, and so turn to be closer to Him.

If you speak of Christians, then there are many who carry the name of 'Christian' (follower of Christ), but who do not follow Him. When they stand before Jesus at the judgement, He will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’</SPAN>

If he says this to those who have accepted his name, yet do not follow Him, how will He judge those who have not accepted his name?

I only have to say thanks for agreeing that Works and Following the Law/Commandments is a obligation that's actually the whole argument.

 

[Doulos]

O i have one more question i have just discovers this today when i was going true the scriptures about these specific verses i think it was Matthew 23..


&#8220;But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, &#8216;Rabbi, Rabbi.&#8217; But you, do not be called &#8216;Rabbi&#8217;; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.&#8221;


But in Matthew 26:25, 26:49, John 1:38 and 3:26 Jesus(p) is called Rabbi
Paul called himself a father in 1Corinithians 4:15 and Philippians 2:22
Paul also called other Christians his children in Galatians 4:19 and a teacher in 1 Timothy 2:7 and 2 Timothy 1:11.

Now i don't have the problem with Jesus(p) calling himself a Rabbi since it means teacher but surely Paul is making huge errors here?

It might help if you used a modern English translation. Your English is fairly good, but I'm assuming you're a non-English speaker. The text you're using appears to be some variant of the King James, and while it is a beautiful translation, it is a translation based upon 17th c words and their usages... not very good for clear understanding by non-native English speakers.

Here's the ESV translation. Read it over and see if it makes more sense to you. Do not read just this short passage though, as it is part of a larger teaching that Jesus is doing. Read at least all of Matthew 23 together. If you still are confused, please post again and we can discuss it.

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
(Matthew 23: 8-12 ESV)

May God guide you in understanding His word.

 

[Doulos]

I only have to say thanks for agreeing that Works and Following the Law/Commandments is a obligation that's actually the whole argument.

It is a poor student who hears only what they wish to hear.

A slave is obligated to obey his Master.

But the obligation of a son is different.

 

[F0uad]

It might help if you used a modern English translation. Your English is fairly good, but I'm assuming you're a non-English speaker. The text you're using appears to be some variant of the King James, and while it is a beautiful translation, it is a translation based upon 17th c words and their usages... not very good for clear understanding by non-native English speakers.

Here's the ESV translation. Read it over and see if it makes more sense to you. Do not read just this short passage though, as it is part of a larger teaching that Jesus is doing. Read at least all of Matthew 23 together. If you still are confused, please post again and we can discuss it.

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
(Matthew 23: 8-12 ESV)

May God guide you in understanding His word.

How does this changes anything? Its means the same... i am sorry but can you clarify since Paul did say he is a father and that Christians are hes children..

 

[sojourner]

It was a Jewish Law

It was? And if so, how does that law apply to Gentile women? Would Jesus demand that Gentile women follow Jewish cultural custom? Not even the Jerusalem church advocated Gentiles following Jewish custom. Why do you think Paul would have advocated for it? There must be some logical explanation other than, "Because God said so."

i don't see how this is a argument.

It's an argument refuting your opinion that following the law cannot lead to sin.

 

[sojourner]

Both religions think women inferior to men.

hold on, Cochise! Xy, as a whole, does not believe women are inferior to men. There are female Anglican bishops, and the leader of my denomination is a female. Many other denominations accept female clergy, and most advocate for equal treatment.

 

[Shermana]

It was? And if so, how does that law apply to Gentile women? Would Jesus demand that Gentile women follow Jewish cultural custom? Not even the Jerusalem church advocated Gentiles following Jewish custom. Why do you think Paul would have advocated for it? There must be some logical explanation other than, "Because God said so."

It's an argument refuting your opinion that following the law cannot lead to sin.

If you're going to argue about "Paul being before Matthew", Acts was well after, there are many scholars who doubt the historicity of the Council of Jerusalem. For one thing, it seems to clash with Paul's account of it in Galatians.

 

[sojourner]

The bible wasn't completed in the 1st century but in the 2nd century and later canonized in the third century hence the big time span made possibilities for many influences.

So?
And?

I would disagree but ok if you think so.

Well, there's misogyny writ large!

Totally agree but Paul did mention the head-scarf of being a part of modesty

But in our culture, head coverings are not seen as a sign of modesty. Largely, religious clothing is seen as a sign of advertisement. So, in view of that, would Paul have revised what he said, had he been saying it to us? Perhaps so!

 

[Shermana]

Ah, so culture trumps Biblical authority.

Rarely do Muslims seem to think that culture trumps what their scriptures say.