Is the grace and power of God required to live righteously?

[Quiddity]

It all depends on what you mean by grace.

It all depends if you make any distinctions of graces.

Grace itself is a very robust topic.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm

 

[Falvlun]

It all depends on what you mean by grace.

It all depends if you make any distinctions of graces.

Grace itself is a very robust topic.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Actual Grace

From that site:

Actual grace derives its name, actual, from the Latin actualis (ad actum), for it is granted by God for the performance of salutary acts and is present and disappears with the action itself.

Do you believe that it is possible to perform "good deeds" without this actual grace?

Was there anything else you found particularly interesting in that article regarding actual grace?

 

[Shermana]

""...all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." ~Isaiah 64:6

Just for the record, I like to correct this widespread abused out of context verse whenever possible, I find it interesting how often I see it, it's as if the pastors are the ones spreading it. Anyone who has read Isaiah 64 knows that it's referring to a generation that's about to be destroyed that is NOT righteous but has indulged in widespread sin, it is not referring at all to their good deeds. That's the meaning "Our righteousness is dirty", it's like saying "Your virtue is stained". Virtue can mean goodness, but it can also mean the measure of how one is perceived in terms of virtue itself. I will get into the whole chapter 64 if need be, but I truly wish the widespread abuse of this verse would end. It does not mean whatsoever what most "Christians" who use it think it means, and if anything, it proves that they have not read Isaiah. It should be a crime penalized with a forced reading of Isaiah to use this verse outside of its intended context.

 

[Quiddity]

From that site:


Do you believe that it is possible to perform "good deeds" without this actual grace?

Was there anything else you found particularly interesting in that article regarding actual grace?

For the sake of not going deeper into the discussion.

Yes, I think good deeds can be done without grace.

 

[Me Myself]

Only God's righteousness is true righteousness. And while it absolutely has to do with being good, I think it also encompasses terms like perfection, completeness, straightness, etc. The problem is, in order to be truly righteous, one must always be good. And in that respect, we humans utterly fail. That's why the Bible states that even if you break one commandment, you've broken them all. So simply being good most of the time (which is the most any of us can ever boast of, and I'm being generous, because Jesus said no one was good but God) doesn't equate with righteousness.

It also states that you can make amends and take responsability for your mistakes.

Righteousness doesn´t encompasses perfection unless we are talking about perfect righteousness.

It´s like saying "Wow! this burger is tasty!" and then I asking "Is it the tastier burger you ever ate? because if it is not, then it is not tasty"

It´s nonsense. Jesus was ilustrating a point. God is righteousness, and we are only righteous when acting according to him (which means according to love, peace, happiness, etc).

Self deprecation serves no purpose.

Actually, it amplifies our chances to be bad persons. You are hypnotazing yourself in unconstructive ways.

 

[Falvlun]

It also states that you can make amends and take responsability for your mistakes.

Righteousness doesn´t encompasses perfection unless we are talking about perfect righteousness.

It´s like saying "Wow! this burger is tasty!" and then I asking "Is it the tastier burger you ever ate? because if it is not, then it is not tasty"

It´s nonsense. Jesus was ilustrating a point. God is righteousness, and we are only righteous when acting according to him (which means according to love, peace, happiness, etc).

Self deprecation serves no purpose.

Actually, it amplifies our chances to be bad persons. You are hypnotazing yourself in unconstructive ways.

Exactly!

 

[Me Myself]

By the way... didn´t God said many times that Job was a good man? He even said it to the Satan!

 

[Hope]

I am not saying we are as righteous as God. I am arguing against the idea, that you are proposing, that our good actions are worthless because we are not good every single time.

You've said things like "That's why the Bible states that even if you break one commandment, you've broken them all" and

and

""...all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." ~Isaiah 64:6

This is why we can never please God in our own strength, no matter how good we are. Because our righteousness, compared to His, which is true righteousness, is not enough. I wouldn't say God is arbitrary about righteousness...He is simply righteousness personified and therefore has every right to reject our feeble attempts at righteousness."

Fair enough. Thank you for clarifying your position. I will clarify mine further by saying that I don't believe good actions are always worthless---they are only worthless when we use them to justify our so-called lack of need for God (which many in this thread are trying to do) and when we use them to try to please God in our own strength. I hope that makes sense.

I don't think people are arguing that we can be perfect. What we are arguing is that we are able to be good. You, and (your interpretation of) God, are rejecting all instances of goodness as "filthy"; and claiming that the one time you lied to your best friend cancels out the hundreds of time you have told her the truth.

That makes all those instances of telling the truth to be worthless. I am just taking your argument to its logical conclusion.

Insofar as we are comparing our goodness to God's, then yes, you've arrived at the correct conclusion. I am not saying people cannot do good things. I'm just saying that our goodness does not equate with God's. Which I thought was the point of this thread, since so many are claiming we don't need God's help to be good.

It's not about being perfect. It is about striving for the best we can be.

And I have nothing against that. It only becomes a problem when one thinks all that striving is going to please God.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I think James got it right, "Faith without works is dead".

Forgiveness is another issue with me. If you ask for forgiveness knowing full well you have plans to do the same thing again, you are being dishonest and should not be forgiven.

Too many folks have the time of their lives on Saturday Night and ask for forgiveness on Sunday only to do it all again next week.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And I have nothing against that. It only becomes a problem when one thinks all that striving is going to please God.

Of course. Imperfect human deeds aren't going to please God because they're imperfect. Only imperfect human faith can please God.

:areyoucra

 

[Shermana]

It also states that you can make amends and take responsability for your mistakes.

Righteousness doesn´t encompasses perfection unless we are talking about perfect righteousness.

It´s like saying "Wow! this burger is tasty!" and then I asking "Is it the tastier burger you ever ate? because if it is not, then it is not tasty"

It´s nonsense. Jesus was ilustrating a point. God is righteousness, and we are only righteous when acting according to him (which means according to love, peace, happiness, etc).

Self deprecation serves no purpose.

Actually, it amplifies our chances to be bad persons. You are hypnotazing yourself in unconstructive ways.

Well said! Those who think they are "righteous" without actually employing what the scripture says in detail about what it entails are probably all the more likely to actually go sin, thinking that they are "righteous" without having a set rubric of what it even means.

This goes well with what I say that "Christians" who go by the OSAS mentality are all the more likely to be immoral than even Atheists because they think in fact that they have some kind of get out of hell free card.

 

[Me Myself]

Of course. Imperfect human deeds aren't going to please God because they're imperfect. Only imperfect human faith can please God.

:areyoucra

I must spread some around

 

[Hope]

Why would God find that more pleasing? Shouldn't God simply revel in good actions, if indeed, he is the embodiment of righteousness?

Of course God wants good actions, but He also desires a relationship with us. If you look at all the instances of the people labeled as "righteous" in the Bible, it wasn't merely their good deeds that made them so, but their relationship with God.

Straightness? Are you claiming that God is a line?

Yes, God is a line.

I was merely relating one of the meanings of the original Hebrew word for righteousness. And one of them is indeed "straight." That's the unfortunate thing about languages: sometimes so much gets lost in translation, especially over time. When we think of righteousness, we merely think of the word "goodness," but in the original Hebrew it meant so much more than that. Straight implies no irregularities, deformities or crookedness, and doesn't necessarily refer to a line, as I'm sure you're well aware.

I also think the term "true" righteousness is misleading, if you are defining it simply as "always doing the right thing". It would be more accurate to label it as "perfect righteousness". As mentioned before, telling the truth is telling the truth. You can't do it any better than God in any single instance. There is no difference between God telling the truth and humans telling the truth. They are both the exact same example of righteousness. One cannot be "more true" than the other.

Hmm, I see where you're coming from, but I would disagree because there are also motives to be considered. One can tell the truth with wrong motives, and in that case, the "rightness" or "righteousness" of the truth-telling is cancelled out by the wrong motives. God, on the other hand, always tells the truth with correct motives. Even the devil (if you believe in him) will tell the truth if it suits his dark motives, and I would not be so kind as to call him righteous for doing so.

 

[Me Myself]

I am sure God said that Job was righteous.

 

[Hope]

Self deprecation serves no purpose.

Actually, it amplifies our chances to be bad persons. You are hypnotazing yourself in unconstructive ways.

Hmmm...no actually, realizing I can't be righteous apart from God is incredibly freeing.

And self-deprecation serves a far better purpose than self-glorification.

 

[Me Myself]

Hmmm...no actually, realizing I can't be righteous apart from God is incredibly freeing.

And self-deprecation serves a far better purpose than self-glorification.

Depends. If done correctly, self esteem can do wonders.

Saying "I am a good and compassionate person" regularly will make you want to strive to be this, from the subconsious to the way up.

Self deprecation is obviously freeing! but it is not constructive. It is more constructive to aim for righteousness while believing you can acchieve it and reinforcing this belief.

Saying "of course I did bad! because I am such a sinner and useless if I dont pray!" is a serious problem because that will literaly make your subconscious prone to make you moraly worst if you forget your prayers a couple of times.

 

[Sleeppy]

Hmmm...no actually, realizing I can't be righteous apart from God is incredibly freeing.

And self-deprecation serves a far better purpose than self-glorification.

God has really blessed you, Hope! It is freeing isn't it? I can't express how glad I am to see your posts.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

@Job
Low blow me myself.... low blow lol

 

[Me Myself]

So God was wrong about Job then?

 

[Hope]

Just for the record, I like to correct this widespread abused out of context verse whenever possible, I find it interesting how often I see it, it's as if the pastors are the ones spreading it. Anyone who has read Isaiah 64 knows that it's referring to a generation that's about to be destroyed that is NOT righteous but has indulged in widespread sin, it is not referring at all to their good deeds. That's the meaning "Our righteousness is dirty", it's like saying "Your virtue is stained". Virtue can mean goodness, but it can also mean the measure of how one is perceived in terms of virtue itself. I will get into the whole chapter 64 if need be, but I truly wish the widespread abuse of this verse would end. It does not mean whatsoever what most "Christians" who use it think it means, and if anything, it proves that they have not read Isaiah. It should be a crime penalized with a forced reading of Isaiah to use this verse outside of its intended context.

I've read Isaiah many times and it happens to be one of my favorite books in the Bible.

While it's true every verse in Scripture should be considered within its context, it's also true (at least for Christians) that the whole of the Bible is God-breathed, and therefore if one concept is repeated throughout the Bible often enough it's safe to assume that concept is universally true. For instance, I don't read the words of Jesus as being only meant for His first-century hearers, but for myself as well. As Scripture itself says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." ~2 Timothy 3:16

Therefore, when I see other Scriptures saying things like "as it is written, There is none righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10, which is quoting Psalm 14:3 & 53:1) and "No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19), I can conclude that no one is righteous or good except God and Isaiah 64:6 promotes the same concept.