Is the grace and power of God required to live righteously?

[Me Myself]

No I'm not naive. I am aware of Hitler's claims. However, anyone can claim to be a Christian, yet if their life does not line up with their claim, then I have no reason to believe that claim. Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. A man who slaughtered millions of people and never showed any remorse or repentance for his deeds and no actual evidence of a relationship with Christ fails to convince me he was truly a Christian.

I am not telling you to be convinced, that would be ridiculous. I am telling you you cannot be convinced: either that he believed and loved Jesus Christ or that he didn´t.

Do you think that those who flew planes to the twin Towers didn{t believe in Allah? I mean, they blew up their bodies BECAUSE they believed in him (I am not saying this is the only reason, I am merely saying it is obviously they believed)

So it is incredibly naive to think that one cannot love a deity and completely misunderstand the point of it´s message.

This should be very obvious by now.

 

[McBell]

Only if one in the relationship is proud, imperfect, and controlling.

So god is trying to cut out the competition?

 

[Hope]

If one of your sheep escapes, will you not go and look for your one sheep leaving all your other sheeps behind?

God is looking for everyone. ESPECIALLY the proud people.

About self suficiency, that has never ever been a sin.

Yes, you're absolutely right---in one sense God is looking for everyone. He definitely wants everyone to come to Him.

However, what I meant is that once you come to Him, you can't remain a proud, self-sufficient person, otherwise there's no way you can have a real relationship with Him. He requires humility.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, you're absolutely right---in one sense God is looking for everyone. He definitely wants everyone to come to Him.

However, what I meant is that once you come to Him, you can't remain a proud, self-sufficient person, otherwise there's no way you can have a real relationship with Him. He requires humility.

Again, self suficiency is not a sin. More so, it is a virtue.

 

[Hope]

I am not telling you to be convinced, that would be ridiculous. I am telling you you cannot be convinced: either that he believed and loved Jesus Christ or that he didn´t.

Do you think that those who flew planes to the twin Towers didn{t believe in Allah? I mean, they blew up their bodies BECAUSE they believed in him (I am not saying this is the only reason, I am merely saying it is obviously they believed)

So it is incredibly naive to think that one cannot love a deity and completely misunderstand the point of it´s message.

This should be very obvious by now.

I don't think we're on the same track here.

Obviously, Hitler could well have been completely convinced in his own mind that he loved Christ or whatever, but as you say, he may have misunderstood the point of the message of Christ---in which case, all I'm saying is that, in such a case, he can't really be a Christian, because to truly be a Christian one MUST understand who Christ is and His message and live accordingly. That is all I'm saying.

I'm not questioning the fact that Hitler had certain beliefs---I'm questioning the legitimacy of those beliefs. One can claim to be a tomato all one wants, or even be convinced in one's own mind that one is, but if one doesn't look, or smell, or taste, or behave like a tomato, then why should anyone else be convinced one is a tomato? As I said before, Jesus said you would know His (true) disciples by their fruit.

 

[Hope]

Again, self suficiency is not a sin. More so, it is a virtue.

Not according to Scripture.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding." ~Proverbs 3:5

 

[waitasec]

Only if one in the relationship is proud, imperfect, and controlling.

that sounds like the god in the bible...

or at least it covers a significant portion of the people who represent the god of abraham.

 

[waitasec]

About self suficiency, that has never ever been a sin.

of course it is...
why else would one need god...?

 

[waitasec]

Not according to Scripture.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding." ~Proverbs 3:5

i never understood that.

does that mean when you see a brick wall in front of you...
you should still try to walk thru it?

 

[Shermana]

i never understood that.

does that mean when you see a brick wall in front of you...
you should still try to walk thru it?

The word "understanding" here I think has more of a "wisdom" and a profounder sense of thought than it is about "understanding" a brick wall causing a dent in your forehead. It matches with what it says that "the fear of God is the source of all wisdom".

http://concordances.org/hebrew/998.htm

 

[Nakosis]

i never understood that.

does that mean when you see a brick wall in front of you...
you should still try to walk thru it?

I think what it means is the author couldn't make any sense of the world.

The wicked go unpunished. The good fall. The moral and the immoral alike suffer the same. God doesn't answer the prayers of righteous with any greater frequency then what the sinner hopes for.

Being good does not gain any favoritism with God. Doing evil does not seem to bring down his wrath. Simple observation of reality then the decision they couldn't make any more sense of God then you could.

So remain faithful to God's commandments and hope for the best. Since the wisest of these folks in the Bible couldn't figure out what the heck is going on.

If you ask me they could have benefited from some Buddhist teaching.

 

[Hope]

that sounds like the god in the bible...

or at least it covers a significant portion of the people who represent the god of abraham.

I'm sorry you think that. Truly.

 

[waitasec]

I'm sorry you think that. Truly.

me too.

 

[waitasec]

I think what it means is the author couldn't make any sense of the world.

The wicked go unpunished. The good fall. The moral and the immoral alike suffer the same. God doesn't answer the prayers of righteous with any greater frequency then what the sinner hopes for.

Being good does not gain any favoritism with God. Doing evil does not seem to bring down his wrath. Simple observation of reality then the decision they couldn't make any more sense of God then you could.

So remain faithful to God's commandments and hope for the best. Since the wisest of these folks in the Bible couldn't figure out what the heck is going on.

If you ask me they could have benefited from some Buddhist teaching.

indeed.

 

[waitasec]

The word "understanding" here I think has more of a "wisdom" and a profounder sense of thought than it is about "understanding" a brick wall causing a dent in your forehead. It matches with what it says that "the fear of God is the source of all wisdom".

998. ??????? (binah) -- an understanding

i would argue that if one didn't fear god when this passage was written, one would be foolish to come out as they would probably be stoned to death...

consider this:

"a man's got to know his limitations"

~dirty harry

 

[Me Myself]

of course it is...
why else would one need god...?

Well, for starters, self suficiency in the traditional manstream interpretation of christianity is either an imposibility or something understood to be taken as a "partial" self suficiency.

The traditional mindset would simply say that no one is capable of anything without God, and that self suficient people are still using God given gifts to do what they do. They are self suficient in the sense that they only need themselves and God.

The interpretation of "self suficiency" that doesn´t need God, would be a literal imposibility in traditional mainstream, etc, christianity, so why take it into account anyways?

Self suficiency cannot be a sin if it is not even posible. If self sufficiency was a sin, then God would be the very representation of such sin

 

[waitasec]

Well, for starters, self suficiency in the traditional manstream interpretation of christianity is either an imposibility or something understood to be taken as a "partial" self suficiency.

The traditional mindset would simply say that no one is capable of anything without God, and that self suficient people are still using God given gifts to do what they do. They are self suficient in the sense that they only need themselves and God.

The interpretation of "self suficiency" that doesn´t need God, would be a literal imposibility in traditional mainstream, etc, christianity, so why take it into account anyways?

Self suficiency cannot be a sin if it is not even posible. If self sufficiency was a sin, then God would be the very representation of such sin

good observation...

 

[Falvlun]

Hmmm....how to explain. Yes, being good, loving your family, etc., are all part of righteousness, but I guess we need to clarify that there is man's so-called righteousness, and then there is God's righteousness. None of man's good works, in and of themselves, please God.

"...all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." ~Isaiah 64:6

Two boys are playing ball. They accidentally break a window. Both boys believe that telling the truth is the right thing to do, but are tempted to lie about it so they don't get in trouble.

Scenario 1: Johnny prays to God to give him the strength to tell his parents the truth. Johnny ends up telling his parents the truth.

Scenario 2: Davey thinks about what sort of person he wants to be, and decides he wants to be someone who is honest and trustworthy. Davey ends up telling his parents the truth.

How is it that Scenario 1 represents a righteous life, but Scenario 2 does not? Both result in the boys choosing the correct course of action: they decide not to lie.

Why would God be displeased with Davey's course of action? Would he not be pleased with both boys, that they were able to chose the "righteous path", despite it being the harder one?

This is why we can never please God in our own strength, no matter how good we are. Because our righteousness, compared to His, which is true righteousness, is not enough. I wouldn't say God is arbitrary about righteousness...He is simply righteousness personified and therefore has every right to reject our feeble attempts at righteousness.

What precisely is "true righteousness"? It must not have anything to do with being good. Because if it did, then any and all instances of goodness would be considered righteous.

There's no such thing as telling the truth more perfectly in an any singular instance. There is only telling the truth or lying. God himself would not be able to be more truthful than either of those boys. The only difference with God is that he'd be able to tell the truth every single time.

So how, exactly, is a person telling the truth any different than God telling the truth? If they are precisely the same, then how is Davey telling the truth not worthy of being considered righteous? If it is not considered to be righteous, then God must not consider telling the truth to be a righteous act. And if God does not consider telling the truth to be a righteous act, what does he consider to be righteous? And how does he himself display it (if not by things such as always being able to tell the truth?)

 

[Falvlun]

If I am able to ride a bike without training wheels, why would it be preferable for me to keep them on? Why would a parent punish me for biking without my training wheels, and only praise me when I biked with them on?

 

[Hope]

Two boys are playing ball. They accidentally break a window. Both boys believe that telling the truth is the right thing to do, but are tempted to lie about it so they don't get in trouble.

Scenario 1: Johnny prays to God to give him the strength to tell his parents the truth. Johnny ends up telling his parents the truth.

Scenario 2: Davey thinks about what sort of person he wants to be, and decides he wants to be someone who is honest and trustworthy. Davey ends up telling his parents the truth.

How is it that Scenario 1 represents a righteous life, but Scenario 2 does not? Both result in the boys choosing the correct course of action: they decide not to lie.

Why would God be displeased with Davey's course of action? Would he not be pleased with both boys, that they were able to chose the "righteous path", despite it being the harder one?

No argument here. God wouldn't be displeased with Davey's course of action. However, He would find it more pleasing that one boy turned to Him for help.

What precisely is "true righteousness"? It must not have anything to do with being good. Because if it did, then any and all instances of goodness would be considered righteous.

Only God's righteousness is true righteousness. And while it absolutely has to do with being good, I think it also encompasses terms like perfection, completeness, straightness, etc. The problem is, in order to be truly righteous, one must always be good. And in that respect, we humans utterly fail. That's why the Bible states that even if you break one commandment, you've broken them all. So simply being good most of the time (which is the most any of us can ever boast of, and I'm being generous, because Jesus said no one was good but God) doesn't equate with righteousness.

There's no such thing as telling the truth more perfectly in an any singular instance. There is only telling the truth or lying. God himself would not be able to be more truthful than either of those boys. The only difference with God is that he'd be able to tell the truth every single time.

Exactly. And that's why God is righteous and we're not. See above.

So how, exactly, is a person telling the truth any different than God telling the truth? If they are precisely the same, then how is Davey telling the truth not worthy of being considered righteous? If it is not considered to be righteous, then God must not consider telling the truth to be a righteous act. And if God does not consider telling the truth to be a righteous act, what does he consider to be righteous? And how does he himself display it (if not by things such as always being able to tell the truth?)

See my explanation above for the answer to most of these questions.

God displays His righteousness by being the only perfect Being in existence.