F0uad
Well-Known Member
You have a right to be wrong same as me. (just kidding)
I am not sure if you intend to defend the Quran but this is for anyone:
Missing Text
Further in conflict with Von Denffer's position of a divinely inspired book transmitted directly from heaven, is ample evidence that there are numerous passages missing from the current version of the Qur'an. According to Islamic tradition, many of the revelations of Muhammad perished in the battle of Yamama "Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.23)."(24) The point here is clear. There were many passages that were lost forever and could not be recovered. It is evident that the revelation in today's Qur'an is not the complete revelation allegedly passed down by the Angle Gabriel.
We find more evidence that support the fact that some of Muhammad's revelations may have been lost from one of the earliest works of the Hadith. In the words of Muhammad's wife Aisha: "Aishah said: A man got up (for prayer) at night, he read the Qur'an and raised his voice in reading. When morning came, the Apostle of Allah (saw) said: May Allah have mercy on so-and-so! Last night he reminded me a number of verses I was about to forget. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Vol. 3, p.1114)."(25) How should we expect that the companions of Muhammad would have a flawless memory when the "Apostle" himself was prone to lapses of memory? This is even more interesting considering the fact that according to tradition, Muhammad would have to recite the Qur'an to the Angle Gabriel at least once a year at which time Gabriel would authenticate the word for word revelation.
Gilchrist presents a number of other examples of missing passages from the Qur'an. Abdullah ibn Umar, in the earliest days of Islam, was quite emphatic about the fact of missing Qur'anic text:
It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).(26)
A further example of missing text from the Qur'an can be found in Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3421 where Aisha says: "It had been revealed in the Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Qur'an [emphasis added] (and recited by the Muslims)." However, this verse is found nowhere in the Qur'an of today. The evidence is clear that the Qur'an that Muslims have today cannot be an exact replica of the tables in heaven as Von Denffer would have us to believe. There were clearly variant reading which differ from quotes in the hadiths, which itself serves as a witness to the mutability of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an: Heavenly or Human?
If just this is true then the devine inspiration of the quran is unlikely.
Wow serious i have explained that in my previous post...
I will just copy/paste my answer from the previous answer since you like to copy from articles hehehe..
This reference to the Itqan is untraceable as no edition of it is in less than two volumes to my knowledge.It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524)
The above refers to a famous saying of Ibn `Umar, once again deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated so as to mislead readers to think it means other than its actual meaning.
The words used by Ibn `Umar for the terms given as "acquired," "disappeared," and "what has survived" above were -- I am quoting from memory -- respectively "ahattu" (I have encompassed), "faatahu" (escapes him), and "ma tayassara minhu" (whatever amount of it has been facilitated).
The actual meaning of Ibn `Umar's words is:
"Let no one say: I have encompassed the whole of the Qur'an [= its meanings]. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an escapes him? Rather, let him say: I have encompassed whatever amount of it has been facilitated [for me to know]."
Ibn `Umar was famous for his strictness in refraining from interpreting the Qur'an, even criticizing Ibn `Abbas's interpretive zeal in the beginning, then accepting its authority. He was not referring to the collection of the Qur'an! But only to the ethics of the exegete, in the same line as Ibn `Abbas's saying narrated by al-Tabari and cited by al-Suyuti and al-Zarkashi: "There are ambiguous verses in the Qur'an which no one knows besides Allah. Whoever claims that he knows them, is a liar."
If you took time to read the article and hes book it refutes itself in the start area where its explained that some of the companions had there own personal Qurans(codex´s) written down because they knew the entire chapter and didn't want to write it down due to much text if you read the Sahih Muslim Hadith further it explains itself in much more details.Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3421 where Aisha says: "It had been revealed in the Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Qur'an [emphasis added] (and recited by the Muslims)."
Read: Codex Sana?a I - A Qur'anic Manuscript From Mid-1st Century Of Hijra
fully detailed information about a the Quranic manuscript coming from 15 years after Mohammed(saws).
Highlighted area: Subsequently in 2010 Sadeghi and Bergmann had published their article analysing the four auction folios, specifically the Sotheby’s 1993 / Stanford 2007 folio, where details were given of a radiocarbon study corroborating the early date already assigned to the manuscript. Analysis was done at the Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) Laboratory at the University of Arizona.[41] According to Sadeghi and Bergmann, the results indicated that the parchment had a 68% (1σ probability of belonging to the period between 614 CE to 656 CE. It had a 95% (2σ probability of belonging to the period between 578 CE and 669 CE. The carbon dating was applicable to the scriptio inferior[42] The date which the scriptio superior text was written could be the first or second half of the 7th century or even the early 8th century (more generally the 1st century hijra). Sadeghi then pointed out, “For historical reasons, however, what is of greater interest is the probability that the parchment is older than a certain date. … The probability that the parchment is older than AD 646 is 75.1 %, or a three-to-one likelihood. It is highly probable therefore, that the Ṣanʿāʾ I manuscript was produced no more than 15 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad.”[43] He concluded that the scriptio inferior text belonged to the period of the companions of Prophet Muhammad, whilst the scriptio superior text belonged to the ʿUthmānic tradition, and using stemmatics, the ʿUthmānic tradition was shown to give the most accurate reproduction of the Prophetic prototype.
Now you have to remember that over 15million Muslims know the Quran word by word, letter by letter that mean´s that Islam has a very strong oral tradition hence people in Africa knew the Quran without even having one by hearing it from there fore-fathers they got it from there fore-fathers till the time of the prophet(saws) and its actually the same with the present and off-course that in time of the prophet(saws), its a Islamic obligation to recite the whole Quran, learn and pray from the Quran so i am pretty sure Islam has a real advantage on that case (remember prayer is 5days a time reciting different surahs) so even without the scripture the Quran is more likely to be preserved then the bible, i will be waiting from you to show me anything biblical that is 15years after Jesus(p) or even 30years as i clearly did above.
Remember this is not a real ´´debate´´ for me or muslims since there is no Bible vs Quran its the Bible and Quran.
Ps: That german has been refuted along time ago seriously hes so called ´´evidence and book´´ were published around 1988 and as you can see is used by Christian websites and articles i found more then over 10 Christian websites using the same argument that you did... hehehe
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