Does the god who supposedly created this world deserve to be worshipped?

[Wannabe Yogi]

Of course I do. So do you if you live in a developed nation.

The world powers have made basically everyone else on the planet their slaves.

Some of it's obvious, like the kids working in sweatshops so we can have access to inexpensive merchandise. Or like the people living in oil producing regions for whom practically every aspect of their day-to-day lives is in some way dictated by oil consuming nations like us.

Then there are the people living under dictatorships that were installed by western imperialist powers.

All these people are our slaves and we all benefit from their labor and suffering every day. And we all pay the oil companies and the retail chains---the overseers---to keep them in line and keep them working for us.

If there's any difference between the slave-owners of the Old Testament times and ourselves it's that they felt responsible for their slaves, felt obligated to take care of them, and had laws in place to guarantee humane treatment towards them.

We don't.

:clap

Yes Sir, we now have plenty of distance between us and our slaves so we no longer have personal responsibility for our slaves.

 

[bribrius]

Yes, there is a reason. An obvious reason. The bible was written by ignorant men who didn't know any better. Not by God. Any reasonable person can see this. What you're seeing here now is a case of "to get good men to do bad things requires religion".


I prefer the modern (secular) way of treating prisoners of war rather than the horror of slavery.


You can marry someone from a different clan without slavery.


Then give them a job as a servant, not a slave. As a servant they can quit any time they want. Slavery is not necessary nor justified.


Again, that is giving someone a cruel option of slavery or death. The proper thing to do, and what the bible should have said, if it were really the word of God, would be to employ poor people instead of watching them starve to death.


It was exactly whip and chain for many slaves of Christians, even if not all. But all of the slavery, for all of the time, was always wrong.

God knows that. The bible doesn't.

By the way, here's something from your link:

"all slaves in the plantation were branded on their chests, using the traditional red hot iron"

and some are slaves because they volunteered or wanted to be. Others because they were caught stealing. No prisons they made them slaves.
Exodus 22:1-3

English Standard Version (ESV)

22 [a] “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2 [b] If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, 3 but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

And what do you suggest for them?

 

[kerravon]

Of course I do. So do you if you live in a developed nation.

The world powers have made basically everyone else on the planet their slaves.

That is not the definition of slavery, and diminishes the horror of slavery.

Some of it's obvious, like the kids working in sweatshops

That's low standard of living. Which they've always had (and had much worse).

so we can have access to inexpensive merchandise. Or like the people living in oil producing regions for whom practically every aspect of their day-to-day lives is in some way dictated by oil consuming nations like us.

People living in oil producing regions live ordinary lives as dentists etc, not slaves.

Then there are the people living under dictatorships that were installed by western imperialist powers.

Technically this is subjugation, not slavery. But I agree, we can call this state-slavery and I believe we have an obligation to free them, as we did in Iraq (but many complained about that when it was done).

All these people are our slaves

No, all of these people are non-slaves. Slavery is mostly abolished in the world. It's rare to find a slave market where you can buy and sell slaves.

and we all benefit from their labor and suffering every day.

This is the free market. Any attempt at replacing the free market has only made things worse. Some of these people, like the Taiwanese and South Koreans, have successfully pulled themselves up thanks to the free market.

And we all pay the oil companies and the retail chains---the overseers---to keep them in line and keep them working for us.

No-one is "kept in line". People make mutually beneficial deals on the free market. Instead of choosing to starve to death.

If there's any difference between the slave-owners of the Old Testament times and ourselves it's that they felt responsible for their slaves, felt obligated to take care of them, and had laws in place to guarantee humane treatment towards them.

We don't.

The standard of living back in the Old Testament was considerably worse than the modern day. And it is not humane to keep a slave in any circumstances. The proper thing to do is to pay them a wage at at least market prices. This much should be obvious.

 

[Quagmire]

lets say i made a wonderful sentient robot. but i made it in such a way that it was as screwed up as mankind is.

You mean by giving it free will.

i had it in my power to make it perfect, but i didnt.

Of course you did: all you would have had to do to make it perfect would be to not make it at all.

should i then tell it to take responsibility for not being perfect?

I don't remember reading anywhere that God's even alleged to have demanded perfection from anyone.

if it dosent, is it being whiny?

If I tell the robot: "Now: I've given you the ability to make your own decisions. See that cliff? If you want to, you can jump off of that cliff, but I'd suggest you don't do that if you want to remain functional. I've also installed some software that will give you the ability to recognize impending bad decisions in order to give you a chance to re-consider every decision you make before you act on it. It should emit a loud signal if you get too close to the edge of the cliff.

OK, all that said, it's your decision, and good luck"

If after all of that it jumps off the cliff anyway, that's OK, it was the robots decision to make. On the other hand, if I go to see how it's doing and I see it look up at me shaking it's fist and saying "Why did you let me do that???? This is your fault!!!" Yes, I would consider that robot a bit on the whiny side.

should it simply be thankful for its existence?

Well, only if it was planning on enjoying any of it.

i didnt even have to create it, but i did.

Good for you. Too bad your robot turned out to be such an ingrate.

and i didnt even have the decency to make it as well as i could have.

There's always room for improvements. If you want to wait until you've hit upon the un-improvable concept before you try to create anything, you might as well forget it and go read a book.

if it resented me for that, id think it'd be well within its rights.

That's decent of you, although considering the fact that you only created this robot to make a point, and seemed to have used yourself as the schematic, I'd say there's just a touch of fore-bias there.

what is rule 8?

Here: you've been here for 3 years now. I think it may be time you rad these: Religious Education Forum - FAQ: vBulletin FAQ

I was trying to save you a mark (that really was a pretty blatant rule 8 violation).

judging from what you quoted, im assuming its not to call foolish people fools. what a foolish rule. you'd have to be a fool to consider it worth following or worth enforcing.

So you're saying that since you're right it's OK for you to preach to the rest of us poor deluded fools (and, apparently, insult whoever you want).

 

[Quagmire]

:clap

Yes Sir, we now have plenty of distance between us and our slaves so we no longer have personal responsibility for our slaves.

You betcha. :yes: Everybody knows invisible slaves don't count.

Observe:

I don't buy the assertion that even though I don't directly own slaves, I am a slave owner because I may, kinda, in some cases, maybe benefit from the results of that slavery, whether I want that to be the case or not.

I don't own any slaves.

 

[kerravon]

and some are slaves because they volunteered or wanted to be. Others because they were caught stealing. No prisons they made them slaves.
Exodus 22:1-3

English Standard Version (ESV)

22 [a] “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2 [b] If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, 3 but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

And what do you suggest for them?

Once again, the modern practice of prisons for crimes is far superior to the barbaric institution of slavery. If you still believe that the bible is God's word, then man's word is superior to God's word. It is astounding that you are still trying to justify the institution of slavery. A lot of effort has been made, including a lot of people dying, to end the practice of slavery. You're literally centuries behind the times.

 

[Vile Atheist]

You betcha. :yes: Everybody knows invisible slaves don't count.

Observe:

How can they be my slaves when I don't support their slavery? I'd rather there not be sweatshops. Not only does it make horrible working conditions for children in impoverished countries, there is an economic argument to creating jobs here by paying people a fair wage to make clothing.

You are distorting the definition of slavery. I do not condone or endorse poor conditions in Third World countries. I do not own those people as slaves. I do not have the power to "free" them.

 

[Quagmire]

That is not the definition of slavery, and diminishes the horror of slavery.

No it doesn't. It just draws attention to a horror that we're personally responsible for.

That's low standard of living. Which they've always had (and had much worse).

It's slavery.

People living in oil producing regions live ordinary lives as dentists etc, not slaves.

Ah, that's right. In fact they're all dentists. My mistake.

Technically this is subjugation, not slavery.

I wonder how much the distinction would matter to the people involved. I mean involved on the other end. I can see how much it matters on this end.

But I agree, we can call this state-slavery and I believe we have an obligation to free them, as we did in Iraq (but many complained about that when it was done).


No, all of these people are non-slaves.

Disagreeing with someone definitions is one thing. Demanding that they discard them in favor of your own is......well, I can think of all kinds of words for that.

Slavery is mostly abolished in the world. It's rare to find a slave market where you can buy and sell slaves.

That's not true at all. Sex trafficking is slavery in every sense of the word, including the classical sense, and that industry is thriving. Also due ultimately to the demand of the consumer.

This is the free market.

Yes: we're free to call it anything we like.

Any attempt at replacing the free market has only made things worse.

I wonder if you realize how many times in history the same exact things were said in defense of a slave-based economy.

Some of these people, like the Taiwanese and South Koreans, have successfully pulled themselves up thanks to the free market.


No-one is "kept in line". People make mutually beneficial deals on the free market. Instead of choosing to starve to death.

That's what it looks like on the surface. Until you start looking a little closer and start to realize who created the desperate conditions that primed the countries and cultures in question and created circumstances that made exploitation look like liberation.

The standard of living back in the Old Testament was considerably worse than the modern day.

Whose standard?

And it is not humane to keep a slave in any circumstances. The proper thing to do is to pay them a wage at at least market prices. This much should be obvious.

It's easy to sit back in a nice, comfortable, 21st century/1st world life and wag a finger at people who lived in another time and place.

Even easier if you go out of your way not to understand that time and place, and even easier than that when you go out of your way not to understand your own.

 

[Quagmire]

How can they be my slaves when I don't support their slavery?

If you're anything like the average consumer, you do. If you mean you don't support it on moral grounds, well, I'm sure the people involved are all kinds of impressed by that.

I'd rather there not be sweatshops. Not only does it make horrible working conditions for children in impoverished countries, there is an economic argument to creating jobs here by paying people a fair wage to make clothing.

You are distorting the definition of slavery.

Actually, i think you are. I think you think it matters who's holding the chains and the whip. I don't think it does.

I do not condone or endorse poor conditions in Third World countries. I do not own those people as slaves. I do not have the power to "free" them.

Like i said: if you're an average 1st world consumer, in spite of how you may "feel" about all this, you still share in the responsibility for the exploitation that's going on behind it.

 

[Quagmire]

Calling someone a fool is a blatant Rule 1 violation. Calling someone a fool is not proselytizing.

This isn't the place to argue about this. I was just trying to give someone a break.

(I'll know better next time)

 

[kerravon]

No it doesn't. It just draws attention to a horror that we're personally responsible for.

We're not personally responsible for 3rd word poverty. They've always been impoverished and they're having too many children. It's a natural phenomenon.

It's slavery.

No it isn't, and I repeat - you diminish REAL slavery.

Ah, that's right. In fact they're all dentists. My mistake.

I said dentists etc. They're not oil slaves like you made out.

That's not true at all. Sex trafficking is slavery in every sense of the word, including the classical sense, and that industry is thriving. Also due ultimately to the demand of the consumer.

Sex trafficking is illegal and there is a police force assigned to redress such injustice. This was not the case in the bible, where slavery was perfectly legal.

I wonder if you realize how many times in history the same exact things were said in defense of a slave-based economy.

They were wrong about slavery being required. Demonstrably so. But to date all the alternative attempts at running a non-capitalist society have proved failures. Doesn't mean there won't be a better one come along in the future.

That's what it looks like on the surface. Until you start looking a little closer and start to realize who created the desperate conditions that primed the countries and cultures in question and created circumstances that made exploitation look like liberation.

They're not being exploited. That's just communist propaganda.

It's easy to sit back in a nice, comfortable, 21st century/1st world life and wag a finger at people who lived in another time and place.

Yes indeed. With modern understanding, it is very easy to see that slavery is wrong, and that codifying "you may buy slaves" in a book cannot possibly be the word of God.

Even easier if you go out of your way not to understand that time and place, and even easier than that when you go out of your way not to understand your own.

Oh, I understand human ignorance all right. That's how I know the bible was written by ignorant men, not God. And it is you who misrepresents our current economy as being slavery-based. Pure communist propaganda.

 

[Vile Atheist]

This isn't the place to argue about this. I was just trying to give someone a break.

(I'll know better next time)

Fair enough.

In any case, speaking to your point of "it doesn't matter who is holding the chains and whip", of course it does.

By the way, I'm not the average consumer. I'm fortunate enough to live in a city where a lot of products are produced locally and I buy from those markets as much as I can. Everything from pizza to soap to clothing. But I recognize that I'm a minority.

I am not alone responsible for the direction of the free market. If there was no demand for Wal-Mart sweatshop products, there would be no Wal-Mart sweatshops. My consumer habits on their own do not keep these sweatshops open. It's a collective effort of society.

But, as wages fall and inflation rises, people look for cheaper alternatives because they too need to eat. People look for the cheapest products and the cheapest products come from those sweatshops. There are ways to stop this:

- Ban certain imports from countries known to harbour extensive sweatshops.
- Educate the public on the origin of their cheap products and hopefully inspire more to explore local alternatives.
- Put diplomatic pressure on countries known to harbour extensive sweatshops.
- Subsidize local alternatives so they are price-competitive with sweatshop products and hopefully drive them out of business.

I don't have the power to do any of these by myself. In every sense of the word, I'm not the one holding the whip and chain and I don't, by myself, have the power to control who it strikes, if anyone. I could agree with your point if I had the power to stop sweatshops and I choose not to. I would agree that I would be responsible for their continued existence. But I don't have that power and I don't consider myself responsible for that slavery.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

and some are slaves because they volunteered or wanted to be. Others because they were caught stealing. No prisons they made them slaves.

Well, there was Paul in the book of the Epistle to Philemon writes that he is returning a fugitive slave, back to his master. This was Roman slavey do you support this type of slavery also ?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Depends. Is any life better than no life?

Depends who you're asking.

 

[kerravon]

- Subsidize local alternatives so they are price-competitive with sweatshop products and hopefully drive them out of business.

People work in sweatshops because it's the best job they can find, out of the miserable set of choices that they have available due to their pace of economic development. Do you care what happens to those people when you put them out of a job? Like when they take up prostitution as the next best alternative?

The Case for Sweatshops | Hoover Institution

 

[JMorris]

You mean by giving it free will.

prove to me humans have free will

Of course you did: all you would have had to do to make it perfect would be to not make it at all.

thats certainly one option

I don't remember reading anywhere that God's even alleged to have demanded perfection from anyone.

there is certainly god's who purport to being perfect. and they expect you to follow their perfect rules in order to make yourself more perfect (the way it wants you to be). or am i pulling that out of my ***?

If I tell the robot: "Now: I've given you the ability to make your own decisions. See that cliff? If you want to, you can jump off of that cliff, but I'd suggest you don't do that if you want to remain functional. I've also installed some software that will give you the ability to recognize impending bad decisions in order to give you a chance to re-consider every decision you make before you act on it. It should emit a loud signal if you get too close to the edge of the cliff.

OK, all that said, it's your decision, and good luck"

If after all of that it jumps off the cliff anyway, that's OK, it was the robots decision to make. On the other hand, if I go to see how it's doing and I see it look up at me shaking it's fist and saying "Why did you let me do that???? This is your fault!!!" Yes, I would consider that robot a bit on the whiny side.

life as quagmire must be nice indeed if you cant possibly imagine how existence could be anything but a gift.

Well, only if it was planning on enjoying any of it.

because life is always possible to enjoy, right?

Good for you. Too bad your robot turned out to be such an ingrate.

you should really be a psychiatrist. suicidal people would get a lot out of it im sure.

There's always room for improvements. If you want to wait until you've hit upon the un-improvable concept before you try to create anything, you might as well forget it and go read a book.

oh is your personal flavor of god not perfect? how reasonable & mature of you.

That's decent of you, although considering the fact that you only created this robot to make a point, and seemed to have used yourself as the schematic, I'd say there's just a touch of fore-bias there.

you assume that humans, if they were created, were created for nobler purpose than to prove a point? maybe it was as simple as that god wanted to watch something suffer.
what other schematic for sentient life should i have? have you met any other kind?

 

[Quagmire]

We're not personally responsible for 3rd word poverty. They've always been impoverished and they're having too many children. It's a natural phenomenon.

Look: you're stating your opinions as fact and completely disregarding any alternative opinions. That's you're right I suppose but it doesn't make for a very promising debate.

No it isn't, and I repeat - you diminish REAL slavery.

You can repeat all you like.

I said dentists etc. They're not oil slaves like you made out.

So you aren't aware that there are people living in OPEC nations that are living under constant oppression? If not, I won't bother trying to make you aware of them.

Sex trafficking is illegal and there is a police force assigned to redress such injustice.

And yet it's still a thriving industry.

This was not the case in the bible, where slavery was perfectly legal.

So illegal slavery is better than legal slavery? I would say no. At least if slavery is legal it's existence is going to be acknowledged, which means the slaves themselves are going to be acknowledged, which means their condition's are going to be acknowledged.

Unacknowledged slaves have no protection at all. People who aren't supposed to exist obviously don't have any rights.

They were wrong about slavery being required.

Maybe we are too.

Demonstrably so.

Hind sight is 20/20. We know now that slavery was actually one of the factors responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire.

At the time though, almost everyone (especially the slave owners) considered it indispensable for the continuation of the empire.

But to date all the alternative attempts at running a non-capitalist society have proved failures. Doesn't mean there won't be a better one come along in the future.

Whether or not capitalism is our best option isn't the topic. Even if it is (and I'm not saying it isn't) the point is that, as it is, slavery (or exploitation if you like that word better) is one of it's pillars.

My point here isn't "lets do away with capitalism". My point is lets look at ourselves before we go pointing fingers at anyone else.

that's pretty much it.

They're not being exploited. That's just communist propaganda.

LOL! thanks for clearing that up for me.

Yes indeed. With modern understanding, it is very easy to see that slavery is wrong, and that codifying "you may buy slaves" in a book cannot possibly be the word of God.

Whether or not the bible is the "Word of God" isn't the topic either.

Oh, I understand human ignorance all right. That's how I know the bible was written by ignorant men, not God.

So your understanding of the bible and the people who wrote it can be summed up by "I understand human ignorance all right. That's how I know the bible was written by ignorant men".

My philosophy is that you can never understand anything until you understand your own ignorance.

Question: if this were 1200 BCE and you were living in one of the tribes of the Hebrews, what do you suppose, you would be doing in regards to the slavery issue?

And it is you who misrepresents our current economy as being slavery-based. Pure communist propaganda.

Thank you Mr McCarthy.

I used to counsel alcoholics and one of their favorite responses to any much needed advise I tried to offer was to label it "12 step propaganda". Seemed to work well for them: it allowed them to go on drinking indefinitely.

 

[kerravon]

i wonder why you quote me and then respond to something else entirely.

You claimed that God was undeniably either evil or incompetent. That is not true, depending on how the universe has been constructed (which you have no way of knowing). If you are merely a brain in a vat you are arguing with a computer simulation which contains nothing evil - just a challenge to decipher.

 

[JMorris]

I'm a child who is abused and mistreated in every imaginable way their entire life. i experience a horrible & painful death at an early age. am i an ingrate if i dont value that life? am i an ingrate for not thanking the god who placed me in that situation? should i have used to my free will to wish myself away from it? am i whiny if i say that id of preferred never to have existed?

*edit* was i simply a test for someone else? someone to help so that another person could prove that their a good person? should i value that?

these are realities for some people. and to say that life is inherently a gift, and a good thing. that it should be appreciated. you'd worship a god that makes this happen everyday? your either a fool or a very self absorbed terrible person.

 

[Quagmire]

Fair enough.

In any case, speaking to your point of "it doesn't matter who is holding the chains and whip", of course it does.

By the way, I'm not the average consumer. I'm fortunate enough to live in a city where a lot of products are produced locally and I buy from those markets as much as I can. Everything from pizza to soap to clothing. But I recognize that I'm a minority.

I am not alone responsible for the direction of the free market. If there was no demand for Wal-Mart sweatshop products, there would be no Wal-Mart sweatshops. My consumer habits on their own do not keep these sweatshops open. It's a collective effort of society.

But we're still each responsible for whatever part we play in it.

But, as wages fall and inflation rises, people look for cheaper alternatives because they too need to eat. People look for the cheapest products and the cheapest products come from those sweatshops. There are ways to stop this:

- Ban certain imports from countries known to harbour extensive sweatshops.
- Educate the public on the origin of their cheap products and hopefully inspire more to explore local alternatives.
- Put diplomatic pressure on countries known to harbour extensive sweatshops.
- Subsidize local alternatives so they are price-competitive with sweatshop products and hopefully drive them out of business.

I don't have the power to do any of these by myself. In every sense of the word, I'm not the one holding the whip and chain and I don't, by myself, have the power to control who it strikes, if anyone. I could agree with your point if I had the power to stop sweatshops and I choose not to. I would agree that I would be responsible for their continued existence. But I don't have that power and I don't consider myself responsible for that slavery.

Like I said: IMO, to whatever extent each of us is participating in it, we hold a share of the responsibility.

Regardless of whether it's necessary, regardless of whether or not it's our best option, it's still what it is.

My point is: the ancient Hebrews could have made all these same arguments, or ones just like them: "Even if I let my slaves go, slavery would still exist." "If I let my slaves go they would all starve, or be recaptured and fall victim to less beneficent owners" "There's no way I could maintain my flock without a few slaves. This is just the economy I live in".

My point is that it's just a wee bit unfair and more than a wee bit sanctimoniousness to look 3000 years down our noses at a culture we don't understand based on a superficial consideration of their circumstances and their society when we aren't even claiming the flaws in our own.

I'm not saying ban it. I wasn't even trying to say don't participate in it. I'm just saying own it.