I am very familiar with your scriptures. What I was trying to gather from you was a specific verse that show Yeshua was with his god "before" the creation of heaven. Proverbs 30:4 doesn't say that. If anything it strengthens my position that "God" and (the son of "God") are separate and not the same.
Mishlei - Chapter 30 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?
But you may be confused as to what I'm referring to. I was originally referring to John 17:5 here --> (
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2843072-post6047.html)
Actually Yeshua remains a separate entity before, during and after. In fact I've given you each and every quote from your scripture showing this. Even the outright explicit statement of him praying to his god declaring that his god is the one true god and he (Yeshua) is the Messiah that his god sent to relay a message of salvation to the lost sheep of Israel. (See: John 6:38, 17:3, 20:17 and Rev. 3:12). This is supposedly from his own mouth so how do you get that he is "God" from this?
Lione D ea: Let us read again Proverbs 8:22-30 it says:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Lione D ea: According in verse 30 the Son was with the Father, the Father and Son both prepared heavens and earth, so that in the beginning, God conversing a Person like Him also that have capacity to create as well, Genesis 1:26Read:
And God said,
Let us make man in our
image, after our likeness: (King James Version)
Lione D ea: Meaning God is not alone, if you notice the word
LET US, God conversing a person like Him that can create everything, who is the
image of God Hebrews 1:1-3 Read?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his
Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory,
and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Lione D ea: The Son is the image of the person of the Father, both them existed before the creation, if we go back in Proverbs 8:26 it says:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Lione D ea: Meaning the Father and Son was existed before the creations, Proverbs 30:4 is true both Father and Son prepared heavens and earth because in Proverbs 8:22-30 the person speak is the Son of God,
He witness the creation to prove it let us read Revelation 3:14 it says:
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith
the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Lione D ea: The Amen, the faithful and true is Christ Jesus, to testify my statement in 1:5 of the Revelation again let us read?
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Lione D ea: Jesus Christ is the Amen, the faithful witness, John is right in 1:1-3 it says:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Lione D ea: Therefore the Son existed in the beginning of the creations, He was with His Father, and He is God also, you cannot call Him God if He wasnt existed before the creation, if the Son was not existed, according in verse 3
without him was not any thing made that was made., so Proverbs 30:4 is true that:
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?
what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Lione D ea: Therefore there is no doubt in exodus 3:14 the Son existed in time of our Parents, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
if what is the Father, the Son also...because like the Father the same yesterday, and to day, and forever also the Son Hebrews 13:8 Read:
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Lione D ea: The Son is with the Father before the creations of everything, theyre their separate being, because Father beget his Son.
But this is what we're getting at. The unity is not "one person". One of the reasons why not is due to the fact that this is a prayer to his god. He says outright that his god is the one true god, that he had completed a task his god had given him to do. The "in one" that he speaks of for the disciples is one of purpose because he was sending the disciples out to deliver the good news.
My opinions aren't even listed. I gave you scripture and solely the words from the mouth of Yeshua. I didn't give you the opinions of Paul, who never met him. Everything I listed as to what Yeshua said and taught is given from the perspective of Yeshua himself as laid out in the four gospels.
That's besides the point and has no bearing on the Hebrew word and how the Jews translate the word. A big part of the confusion is due to the unknown author of the book of Matthew incorrectly interpreting the OT trying to tie that verse to Yeshua and it has nothing to do with him.
Lione D ea: John 17:1-3 let us read:
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God
, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Lione D ea: If you do not considered to know Jesus Christ according in this verse,
you are anti-christ, because there is a little
COMMA to denote as to know the Christ is God also, why is that one, because the one God is in heaven and the one God is in earth, why did He prayed, because
He humbled himself,
and follow the will of God not His will, because if he not follow the will of the Father, the Law given to Moses, prophets and the Psalms
will not fulfill.
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