difference between turiya and deep sleep?

[DanielR]

greetings everyone,

could somebody explain to me the difference between deep sleep and turiya, I know that turiya is not really a state but underlies all three states waking, dreaming, deep sleep.

I also know that in waking, dreaming there is a sense of duality but what about deep sleep, isn't deep sleep the same as turiya??

here's a definition from wikipedia:

In the waking consciousness there is a sense of 'I' (self identity) and awareness of thoughts. In the sleep/dream state there is no or little sense of 'I' but there are thoughts and awareness of thoughts. In the deep sleep state there is no awareness of thoughts or 'I'. In Turiya there is awareness of the undifferentiated 'I' but there are no thoughts. This is what makes it unique from the other 3 states.

is this definition correct. What I don't understand is, it says that in deep sleep there is no sense of I, how can that be, I thought consciousness is always present. Then it says in turiya there is awareness of the undifferentiated 'I' (what is an undifferentiated 'I'?).

I hope you can help!

Thank you

 

[Marble]

What I don't understand is, it says that in deep sleep there is no sense of I, how can that be, I thought consciousness is always present.

I think divine consciousness, The Self, is always present, only the I-consciousness is absent in deep sleep.
Ramana Maharishi teached that in deep sleep there is no I-consciousness and that this thought I is the beginning of all other thoughts.
When I-consciousness is destroyed, what remains is only That.

 

[DanielR]

thank you for your reply Marble!

So, would you say that deep sleep is our natural state?

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Could this be helpful?

Love & rgds

 

[Student of X]

I remember when I was pulled from deep sleep into turiya by many, many brilliant blue spheres. They were arranged in concentric rings and there were two groupings of them. They were flashing in brilliant patterns. Their dance brought me out of deep sleep and into Turiya and it was like a veil falling away from the face of infinity. I was fully lucid. I think the blue spheres were many, many Goddesses.

So there I was, floating in infinity while blue spheres made amazing patterns. I was in my own sphere, and I could see through it in all directions. "Behind" me was the ever-so-tiny waking realm. It seemed to fly away from me at the speed of light.

Then I sensed somehow that the blue orbs wanted me to move my arm. They were communicating through their dance. So I moved it and was amazed to see my beautiful sparkling body made of pure thought. Moving my arm was quite an adventure in itself.

Then there was some sort of wave or disturbance or something. It was aware of me and came at me. I think it was a God or a Goddess. It came back with me, when I returned to waking state. But that's another story.

 

[jg22]

Hello DanielR,

Turiiya is not a state, it is the Self. Deep sleep is not the 'natural state' of the Self, since the Self is free from all states in all three periods of time. Association of the self and states of experience is a result of superimposition of the limiting adjuncts (body mind etc) onto the Self. Deep sleep consists in the temporary suspension of the activity of the senses and mind, hence there is no perception or particular cognition in that state. Turiiya is eternal knowledge and the substratum for all of the states, including deep sleep.

Read the Maanduukya Upanishad with Gaudapaada's Kaarikaa if you want an authoritative explanation on Turiiya.

 

[DanielR]

Friends,
Could this be helpful?

Love & rgds

thanks zenzero, well it helps a little bit ^^ lol

here's something I found at advaita.org.uk

In his dialogue 'The Ending of Fear', Francis Lucille talks about our experience of deep sleep. He says we tend to think of it as a blank. (Indeed I suppose we regard it as one step removed from 'unconsciousness' except that we know that we can be awoken if someone calls our name and therefore there must be something still aware.) The reason for this is that there is no 'objective' knowledge, and this is the only kind of knowledge available to us in the waking state. In order to clarify, he differentiates between the actual condition of being in deep sleep, which he calls 'deep sleep' and our perception of it (attitude/viewpoint) from the waking state, which he calls the 'deep sleep state'.
Clearly we can only actually talk about the 'deep sleep state' - the experience of 'deep sleep' itself is not available, by definition, to the waking person. Thus our attitude that it is a 'blank' or an 'unconscious' state is a view entirely of the waking mind. In fact, claims Lucille, deep sleep is our true nature. It is the same condition as that which exists between thoughts when the mind is still. It is not a 'state' as such but the background to all other states (turIya).
He uses the analogy of faces carved in stone. Our natural tendency is just to see the faces but if we look closely, we see the stone in between. Subsequently, it is possible for us to look at the faces and see that they are stone too. So it is with the three states of which we talk in our waking state viz. waking, dreaming and deep sleep states - these are the faces. Deep sleep (turIya) is that which underlies all of our experience, the 'stone' and, indeed this is all that there is, in fact.

Is this analogy with the stone faces legit, is deep sleep really underlying all three states??

Hm I don't understand :sorry1:

 

[zenzero]

Friend DanielR,

is deep sleep really underlying all three states??

Hm I don't understand :sorry1:

Well since am yet to cross the dream state, the mystery is uknown.
However personal understanding is that Consciousness is what connect each being with the *whole* which is pure consciouness and this is possible when the mind is not in play [thinking]. In dream state the mind is still active but subconsciously and the *I* is still active whereas in deep sleep there is no *I* so consciousness takes over which is what is discussed.
HOWEVER unless one reaches to the said state wakefully one cannot reach that state of *buddhahood* which is where each individual finally will reach by evolution or by revolution.

Love & rgds

 

[jg22]

DanielR,


Francis Lucile's explanation is not the traditional Advaita one (the one found in the Upanishads), and comes across very confused (though his analogy of the stone faces is nice). Please read the Kaarikaa written by Gaudapaada. In the Upanishads, deep sleep is called Prajna, not Turiiya. Turiiya is Reality, whereas Prajna is non-apprehension of Reality. If the Self be Prajna then everything, all states of experience, would be covered by non-apprehension, but this is not so.

 

[Marble]

thank you for your reply Marble!

So, would you say that deep sleep is our natural state?

I would say to know ourself as That is our natural state.
It is only the idea I am this body which makes us fall from the natural state into illusion.
Because in deep sleep the thought I am this body does not exist, deep sleep is the only time when the unenlightened person is in his or her natural state.
In this sense the answer to your question would be: Yes, I believe that deep sleep is our natural state.
[Edit] Just realized I should better have written: I believe that we are in our natural state in deep sleep.

 

[DanielR]

DanielR,


Francis Lucile's explanation is not the traditional Advaita one (the one found in the Upanishads), and comes across very confused (though his analogy of the stone faces is nice). Please read the Kaarikaa written by Gaudapaada. In the Upanishads, deep sleep is called Prajna, not Turiiya. Turiiya is Reality, whereas Prajna is non-apprehension of Reality. If the Self be Prajna then everything, all states of experience, would be covered by non-apprehension, but this is not so.

Thanks jg22 and marble, your responses have been very helpful

 

[Student of X]

Daniel after my trip to Turiya I had many questions. I made a post about it and got a response that you might find helpful. Here it is.

 

[DanielR]

thanks student of X, I will read through it

 

[DanielR]

so this ultimately means the defintion of wiki is the right one??

In the waking consciousness there is a sense of 'I' (self identity) and awareness of thoughts. In the sleep/dream state there is no or little sense of 'I' but there are thoughts and awareness of thoughts. In the deep sleep state there is no awareness of thoughts or 'I'. In Turiya there is awareness of the undifferentiated 'I' but there are no thoughts. This is what makes it unique from the other 3 states.

I've read some bits of the mandukya upanishad online, I think I understand it now better, but not completely yet

 

[jg22]

Hello DanielR,

In Turiya there is awareness of the undifferentiated 'I' but there are no thoughts.

The wiki is partly accurate, but not totally. Turiiya, it rightly says, is not a state, but you don't go 'in' to Turiiya, since it is one's own Self. It's not an experience that you have- so it's irrelevant whether there are thoughts or not. Turiiya is not the same as a samaadhi (cessation of thoughts) or spiritual experience ; it is the Self which constantly underlies all experiences, spiritual or otherwise. Right now, Turiiya is. When you dream, turiiya is. When you sleep, turiiya is. The Self always is; it is the existence (Sat) on which all else, all states, all things, depend.

The thread Student of X has linked to really has nothing to do with Turiiya as it is defined in the Upanishads, and neither does the interesting experience he/she has described to you here.

 

[DanielR]

Hello jg22,

so Turiya is like the witness of all (three states) ?

 

[jg22]

DanielR,

so Turiya is like the witness of all (three states) ?

Yes.

 

[DanielR]

wow, thank you, now that was easy ^^

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Turiiya, it rightly says, is not a state

Some say there are two types of Nirvikalpa samadhi:

-Abhyasarupa the extremely concentrated mind, were the mind has becomes "apparently" ONE with Brahman for a while then comes back to normal consciousness. It is changed and lost many of its vulgarities. This person is then able to ferry back and forth between the absolute (E.G.nitya) and the relative(lila). By repeated experience in Abhyasarupa the next type of samadhi comes.

-Sthitirupa which is a stable state of total manifestation of Brahman. It is never lost or Gained. This is Turiya from which all states of come from.

-

The thread Student of X has linked to really has nothing to do with Turiiya as it is defined in the Upanishads, and neither does the interesting experience he/she has described to you here.

I agree, this is not what the sages described as Turiya.

 

[Student of X]

I agree, this is not what the sages described as Turiya.

I am open to opinions about my experiences, since I have had many that are a mystery to me. I enjoy discovering how different cultures label the exact same experiences.

I was not in a waking, dreaming, or dreamless sleep state. It was as if I entered a wormhole in deep sleep and came out the other side as a fully lucid and liberated Atman or something. I floated in the infinite womb of the Goddess. It was a lot like this.