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Attachment/Nonattachment/Love/Insight Please

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
They say, "attachment is watching the sand slip through your fingers and crying at the loss of each grain. Non-attachment is looking at the beach beneath your feet."

So many people portray attachment as undesirable. I don't find it particularly desirable or undesirable. I find attachment to work hand in hand with non-attachment to prevent non-attachment from becoming indifference. For me attachment is emotional possessiveness... I tell myself I cannot lose something or someone I never owned in the first place, and never will or would. I have no desire to possess... I truly don't... so why would I cry at loss? I tell myself, "I do not own x, y, or z..." and that keeps me from crying, and puts me in a state somewhere in between.

So with the man I adore... He crushed me badly a year ago, does not reciprocate... made it very clear there is no likelihood of us ever being in a relationship or partnership even though he says he adores me as well, which off and on is blatantly obvious... I overcame my emotions... despite being madly in love with this guy and knowing his stance, I was still intimate with him. Then let go in between until we met again.

I tried to be with other people... and afterwards I found myself disappointed and gross feeling... without direct thoughts one way or another. I stopped that. I tried to date someone I thought may be promising to do the trick for me. I found myself in the same situation... despite months of sensory deprivation, I felt like I was cheating... I felt it before I deciphered the source of the feeling. All I realized was that my heart wasn't there. It didn't matter what or where the guy was or if we would ever talk again... that was where my heart was and ignoring that made me feel nasty...

I feel I am not attached yet something deep inside me must be. I don't ask questions, I don't cling, I don't chase... I give all the respect and freedom in the world... yet despite clear rejection, I have no desire to allow anyone else to touch me or to date anyone. This I finally accepted instead of fighting it. I've been dating since I was 15 and I come into contact with large volumes of people every day... and in 2 years thus far... these underlying reactions have not shifted. This is as uncharacteristic of me as biting someones ear off in a boxing ring would be for Ghandi.

Mentors have told me to remove myself completely from any sensory stimuli from this guy. I considered this and then decided it is not safe, as I have done respectable amounts of this already. I cannot risk getting into a relationship and then him reappearing... I would likely question the current commitment and emotions resulting in more suffering. I decided it is better to keep contact as is, because if these reactions leave me, I will then know they truly have.

I've objectively analyzed this internal state and external situation and played with it now for almost 2 years I think. I am content now that I wiggled out of my misfit relationship attempt (even though I feel horrible about it). Yet I still wonder... what the hell is this? It is surreal (the way I feel).
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
From my point of view:
You said that you do not feel attachment is all bad, and even, in some way, necessary, in order for non-attachment to keep from becoming indifference. My reply would be this: as long as you believe attachment, in whatever form, has value, then you will value attachment, in whatever form that may take. We have to understand that: 1. there is a difference between apathy and indifference. Many people equate the two. But apathy is negative, while indifference just is. It is neither negative nor positive. 2. indifference, once we understand that it is neither negative nor positive, is the best expression for non-attachment. 3. Non-attachment, and indifference, does not mean that we cannot show love, or even have feelings. What it means is that we show these feelings in equality, to all sentient beings, without differentiation. This, of course, precludes the idea of relationships, but, at least from the Buddhist perspective, relationships are always a tool of suffering to begin with, so, if one can avoid them, then do so.

I was in the same situation. I was married for five years, and then went through an emotionally painful divorce. It was only after converting to Buddhism from Christianity, that I was able to let go of the past, the hurt, the feelings, the pain, from what I had went through. Now, I am single, celibate, and have no desire to be with anyone. And, I'm happy. And that's something else that people need to realize, is that you don't have to be with someone, in a relationship, no matter what form that relationship takes, to be happy. We create our own happiness. It is not dependent on anything outside ourselves.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
From my point of view:
You said that you do not feel attachment is all bad, and even, in some way, necessary, in order for non-attachment to keep from becoming indifference. My reply would be this: as long as you believe attachment, in whatever form, has value, then you will value attachment, in whatever form that may take. We have to understand that: 1. there is a difference between apathy and indifference. Many people equate the two. But apathy is negative, while indifference just is. It is neither negative nor positive. 2. indifference, once we understand that it is neither negative nor positive, is the best expression for non-attachment. 3. Non-attachment, and indifference, does not mean that we cannot show love, or even have feelings. What it means is that we show these feelings in equality, to all sentient beings, without differentiation. This, of course, precludes the idea of relationships, but, at least from the Buddhist perspective, relationships are always a tool of suffering to begin with, so, if one can avoid them, then do so.

Funny, he is buddhist. You sound just like him. I wouldn't doubt this is the reason he hasn't been in a relationship for years... cause relationships are thought to always be a tool of suffering.

I was in the same situation. I was married for five years, and then went through an emotionally painful divorce. It was only after converting to Buddhism from Christianity, that I was able to let go of the past, the hurt, the feelings, the pain, from what I had went through. Now, I am single, celibate, and have no desire to be with anyone. And, I'm happy. And that's something else that people need to realize, is that you don't have to be with someone, in a relationship, no matter what form that relationship takes, to be happy. We create our own happiness. It is not dependent on anything outside ourselves.

I didn't convert to anything although I did wreck my mind trying to understand these buddhist viewpoints in horrible states of emotional frustration lol, but likewise I found happiness within myself. It was, I believe, how I did not spiral into insanity, and overcame and detached the way I did. I felt conflict because I realized the state would never yield a family or children and I didn't know if I wanted to be without that. Of course after trying to be forceful with finding someone, I found myself scrambling to be alone again. A family, most definitely, should not be the product of a desperate attempt to be with someone/anyone for that.... so I found.

Thanks for your response <3
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Attachment is actually a cause of suffering by which it compels you to cling, whether it be objective or subjective in nature. Detachment and practices that develop detachment is beneficial by which upon mastering, you can get through such episodes without suffering consequences that tend to rise from what is intrinsically impermanent by nature.

This includes issues surrounding love and relationships. The crux is realising the nature of Human interaction and emotion and understanding how this rises and falls, the questions asked along with entangling emotions and expectations will settle, but it may take quite a while, perhaps a good number of years esp in dealing with strong potent ones. However realising just that point alone will be a good start on a road to cessation.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
What are some practices that help develop detachment?

I thought I was already doing a few, but maybe not the best for me.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Theravada Buddhism has several meditations that are used specifically to break attachments to specific things. There's the "mindfulness on the foulness of the 32 parts of the body" meditation, which is used primarily to counter lust and remove attachment to forms. This might be a good practice to consider, but you always want to start off with breath meditation, or, Anapanasati. Metta Bhavana, or loving-kindness meditation, is used to cultivate the kind of love that is non-discriminatory and toward all sentient beings. Those are the ones I would personally suggest.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What are some practices that help develop detachment?

I thought I was already doing a few, but maybe not the best for me.

One practice some people use is to select something they are attached to, and then not use it, or not do it. Shift things around. Fasting is probably the most common. Obviously, we're attached to food.

For example, the monks of the Swaminarayan order mix their entire meal before eating to avoid the attachment to particular tastes. If you're attached to attending a religious service regularly, skip it once. So its things like that. The first key is to recognise the attachment, the second key is will.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
What are some practices that help develop detachment?

I thought I was already doing a few, but maybe not the best for me.

I think that attachment comes from the idea that there is some thing to be attached to. If you recognize that whatever thing/s you are attached to are just thoughts applied to an empty base, then you see that there is nothing to be attached to in the first place and it is just a matter of letting go of your idea.
 

Sylvan

Unrepentant goofer duster
Funny, he is buddhist. You sound just like him. I wouldn't doubt this is the reason he hasn't been in a relationship for years... cause relationships are thought to always be a tool of suffering.

I feel for you. I too have made the mistake of trying to fall in love with serious Buddhists. You are getting some good advice here. Mine is to remember that you are in a body and your emotions are accompanied by chemical reactions. How old are you? I seriously doubt one hot buddhist ruined you for love.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
I feel for you. I too have made the mistake of trying to fall in love with serious Buddhists. You are getting some good advice here. Mine is to remember that you are in a body and your emotions are accompanied by chemical reactions. How old are you? I seriously doubt one hot buddhist ruined you for love.

It makes me feel better that you know how I feel and what I have dealt with. I didn't try to fall in love with a serious Buddhist... I fell in love with him before I had any understanding of these things. I am actually pretty sure at one point I remember him saying exactly that... That relationships are a cause of suffering. He didn't ruin me for love. I love other people. There is another guy, a close friend I previously dated. We've known each other since middle school and been close since 10th grade (I'm 25). The problem is that, I cannot responsibly commit myself to even him again. I know that being with this other guy is what makes me most happy (in terms of a guy partner if I'm going to have one). My attraction could very well cause conflict, hence it's better for me to do as I'm doing or be alone. I don't want to hurt anybody especially someone I care deeply for.

It's a crazy internal situation, but I'm cool with it. I just wonder still ya know... in general
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend ST,

Yes, each being is attached; but that attachment is in Oneness/totality. As we meaning whatever is seen or unseen are all parts of the same and that totality or the sum of all parts is what is referred/labelled *God*; which in essence is CONSCIOUSNESS.
God is as much as its parts or in its totality like a drop of the ocean is ocean in itself.
Meaning a drop is the same in its attachments with all the drops of the ocean or in its detachment. Consciousness of the drop or the drops[ocean] or existence still remains free and in consciousness there is no separation. IT simply IS and so efforts of all paths/ways/religion are to awaken that consciousness which is the core and source of existence where there is no distinction between attachment and detachment.

Love & rgds
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What are some practices that help develop detachment?

I thought I was already doing a few, but maybe not the best for me.

The technique of Zazen is useful and practicable by which you "observe yourself". Just about everything arises and manifests during Zazen sessions which is directly addressed. Detachment comes about naturally through recognition and intuitive understanding of whatever it is that happens to be at the forefront by acknowledging and letting such things pass of its own accord without entertaining or fixating on such things. IOW's seeing for what it is, acknowledging, and then allowing it to pass and dissipate smoothly and naturally. Like watching passing clouds in the sky.

By doing so you will come to recognize the nature of all phenomena through direct experiences of which ebbs and tides. Over time with dedicated sitting and walking practice, you will intuitively start dropping fixations (thus stickiness) as various realisations will set in causing attachments to lose their apparant permanent and fixed "persona" thus it's stranglehold. Realisations usually start with the "small" stuff, yet translates in time over towards the more difficult aspects that are encountered that are much more harder and difficult to let go of.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
The technique of Zazen is useful and practicable by which you "observe yourself". Just about everything arises and manifests during Zazen sessions which is directly addressed. Detachment comes about naturally through recognition and intuitive understanding of whatever it is that happens to be at the forefront by acknowledging and letting such things pass of its own accord without entertaining or fixating on such things. IOW's seeing for what it is, acknowledging, and then allowing it to pass and dissipate smoothly and naturally. Like watching passing clouds in the sky.

By doing so you will come to recognize the nature of all phenomena through direct experiences of which ebbs and tides. Over time with dedicated sitting and walking practice, you will intuitively start dropping fixations (thus stickiness) as various realisations will set in causing attachments to lose their apparant permanent and fixed "persona" thus it's stranglehold. Realisations usually start with the "small" stuff, yet translates in time over towards the more difficult aspects that are encountered that are much more harder and difficult to let go of.

:yes:
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
Thank you guys so much, really. Despite my experiencing and understanding these things I still question. I never assume I really know myself. Myself is always changing. The stillness felt when observing is all that stays the same, and stepping back and observing why I feel the way i do... I still don't understand. How can I love someone, and although not getting what I want, still be happy and require nothing from that person for my happiness... yet not be happy with anyone else? Maybe I will try as you all have suggested... maybe find myself at peace with not knowing as well by the end. Maybe find that stickiness and scrub it out... maybe find I am still not happy with anyone else and go on about my business alone and happy still even with the wondering.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Thank you guys so much, really. Despite my experiencing and understanding these things I still question. I never assume I really know myself. Myself is always changing. The stillness felt when observing is all that stays the same, and stepping back and observing why I feel the way i do... I still don't understand. How can I love someone, and although not getting what I want, still be happy and require nothing from that person for my happiness... yet not be happy with anyone else? Maybe I will try as you all have suggested... maybe find myself at peace with not knowing as well by the end. Maybe find that stickiness and scrub it out... maybe find I am still not happy with anyone else and go on about my business alone and happy still even with the wondering.

Perhaps also it would be helpful to think about this; as the Buddha said, the five skandas (aggregates) are not our self, these five are: the body, feelings, perceptions, tendencies, and consciousness. So, the feelings you have towards this person are not you, nor to they belong to you. This is because there is nothing that is inherently you as opposed to being anything else. This possibly borders on an idea which isnt really easy to understand unless you have had a bit of exposure to Buddhist ideas for a while, but dont worry about it if it does.

In our conscious experience, we lay conceptual frames over our experience and personally identify with these things as ourselves or something belonging to ourselves, thus naturally, as things change, we experience discontentment of varying degrees because of our emotional investment in our ideas about reality which are not generally accurate as regards to the nature of reality.

Anyway, when we get really attached to someone, like when we are in love, they become a strong part of our ego, so its very hard when that part is lost. Generally, we are attached to our ideas about things, rather than the things themselves, this is because we often only see our ideas about something rather than that something itself.


Best wishes! :)
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
From my point of view:
You said that you do not feel attachment is all bad, and even, in some way, necessary, in order for non-attachment to keep from becoming indifference. My reply would be this: as long as you believe attachment, in whatever form, has value, then you will value attachment, in whatever form that may take. We have to understand that: 1. there is a difference between apathy and indifference. Many people equate the two. But apathy is negative, while indifference just is. It is neither negative nor positive. 2. indifference, once we understand that it is neither negative nor positive, is the best expression for non-attachment. 3. Non-attachment, and indifference, does not mean that we cannot show love, or even have feelings. What it means is that we show these feelings in equality, to all sentient beings, without differentiation. This, of course, precludes the idea of relationships, but, at least from the Buddhist perspective, relationships are always a tool of suffering to begin with, so, if one can avoid them, then do so.

If situations are avoided where attachment is bound to grow... what has been accomplished or experienced except discipline? The individual does not know if they have risen above attachment or not... sensory deprivation is not an indicator.... so i see. I find I only truly know when I am overwhelmed by attachment and can still tell myself to let go and do it. Therefore fully experiencing both from an objective viewpoint... finding stillness in suffering while there, and then letting go.

??? Not debating... trying to see if my thought here is reasonable... or if I am totally missing an obvious point
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
Perhaps also it would be helpful to think about this; as the Buddha said, the five skandas (aggregates) are not our self, these five are: the body, feelings, perceptions, tendencies, and consciousness. So, the feelings you have towards this person are not you, nor to they belong to you. This is because there is nothing that is inherently you as opposed to being anything else. This possibly borders on an idea which isnt really easy to understand unless you have had a bit of exposure to Buddhist ideas for a while, but dont worry about it if it does.

In our conscious experience, we lay conceptual frames over our experience and personally identify with these things as ourselves or something belonging to ourselves, thus naturally, as things change, we experience discontentment of varying degrees because of our emotional investment in our ideas about reality which are not generally accurate as regards to the nature of reality.

Anyway, when we get really attached to someone, like when we are in love, they become a strong part of our ego, so its very hard when that part is lost. Generally, we are attached to our ideas about things, rather than the things themselves, this is because we often only see our ideas about something rather than that something itself.


Best wishes! :)

Thanks I understand that... very good suggestion and point. I observe the attachment to idea of instead of what is quite often in other people and have wondered if I am doing same thing. More than likely... at time was passing thought.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
If situations are avoided where attachment is bound to grow... what has been accomplished or experienced except discipline? The individual does not know if they have risen above attachment or not... sensory deprivation is not an indicator.... so i see. I find I only truly know when I am overwhelmed by attachment and can still tell myself to let go and do it. Therefore fully experiencing both from an objective viewpoint... finding stillness in suffering while there, and then letting go.

??? Not debating... trying to see if my thought here is reasonable... or if I am totally missing an obvious point

Sort of yes, and sort of no. We're never going to be able to avoid things that cause attachment, and therefore, suffering. But we can limit them, and when our minds are properly trained, go back to other things, such as relationships. The Buddha taught the Middle Way, which avoids the extremes of ascetism and self-indulgence. You have to start small when getting rid of attachment, like the saying, you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Because suffering isn't about things, people, circumstances. It's about a state of mind, clouded by faulty reasoning and bad judgments. To end suffering, you have to change the way you think, and do so by removing those obstacles that allow you to see clearly.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
There is a misconception that detachment means running away from your problems and/or cutting yourself off from your emotions. This is incorrect with true detachment it is the other way around it is the only way to truly feel all of your emotions and perceive situations correctly.

As someone who practices mindfulness and detachment regularly I have been accused of being "robotic" in my personality, something which I hear a lot with the Dharmic religions. I think it is because our society values style more than substance. Within I assure you I am completely feeling all of my emotions far more than someone who doesn't practice detachment, except I can look at them without becoming chained and controlled by them.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think it's vitally important to note that various situations and circumstances will not be affected by practicing detachment. It's not an elimination. Rather, what develops is the ability to walk a path through the various causes of pain and suffering without becoming ensnared, thus effectively "removing" the fixation which causes emotional and or physical distresses to approach seemingly unbearable extremes. Dyanaprajna2011 makes a valid and practical point concerning this, as well as DreadFish as you already acknowledged.

Hopefully you will start to notice in fairly short time how the small stuff falls away with practice and understanding. As you gain intuition and experience realisations, you will find that the "big"stuff in the end is not really all that different in "substance" than anything else.

Keep gum off your shoes by spitting sideways. ;O)

_/\_
 
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