Christians who deny Christ's divinity/Trinity

[SCHIZO]

I have enjoyed reading the threads here, and would like to pose a question I have run into lately.

What are peoples thoughts here on professed Christians who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the literal trinity? Are they still to be considered Christians? I have read of some early Christian sects that did not believe in the trinity or Christs divinity. And I have met Christians today who do the same. They say they simply follow Christs teachings and worship God. Is this possible, why or why not?

Whoever comes to Jesus he will not cast away. Whoever follows Christ is a Christian. God has a revelation for each of us in faith. He doesn't reveal everything to every single person. Like my knowledge of Christ will be different from your knowledge of Christ. That doesn't mean either of us are lacking. It just means God reveals different things to different people.

 

[Quiddity]

I have enjoyed reading the threads here, and would like to pose a question I have run into lately.

What are peoples thoughts here on professed Christians who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the literal trinity? Are they still to be considered Christians? I have read of some early Christian sects that did not believe in the trinity or Christs divinity. And I have met Christians today who do the same. They say they simply follow Christs teachings and worship God. Is this possible, why or why not?

There are some beliefs that are more clear then others; they leave little doubt. Both of these are fairly clear to most all Christians as basic tenets of the faith.

If you are going to deny this, when then why not move the goal posts even farther? Heck, you don't even have to believe in God to be a Christian.

 

[Spear Hunter]

There are some beliefs that are more clear then others; they leave little doubt. Both of these are fairly clear to most all Christians as basic tenets of the faith.

If you are going to deny this, when then why not move the goal posts even farther? Heck, you don't even have to believe in God to be a Christian.

I know many Christians who have trouble even explaining the idea of a Trinity, and some who just believe because they are told to believe it. I was just curious because there were Christian sects, and still are Christians to my understanding who still deny it. If these are basic clear tenets, they weren't always so. So I was wondering what the consensus here is.

 

[Penumbra]

***Staff Advisory***

This thread has been moved from the Christianity DIR to Same-Faith debates, and cleaned up a bit.

Debating is not allowed in DIR areas. Now that it's in same-faith debates, respectful debate is allowed.
​

 

[Lucian]

There are some beliefs that are more clear then others; they leave little doubt. Both of these are fairly clear to most all Christians as basic tenets of the faith.

If you are going to deny this, when then why not move the goal posts even farther? Heck, you don't even have to believe in God to be a Christian.

“If the man doesn’t believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that settles it. I mean, it does nowadays, because now we can’t burn him.” - Mark Twain

 

[waitasec]

Anyone who doesn't believe in the trinity cannot claim to be a Christian.

why do you say that?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe that nothing exists except for God so, accordingly, everything has a spark of Divinity.
The Christ is special because he was sent by God to point us towards the Father. But trinity does not appear in his teachings. It is a useful concept, though, because it teaches us that God cannot be fully comprehended by humans.

Great post Bob, One question though, Jesus was sent by God to point us toward him, why must we pray to Jesus only now? If they are one and the same, what is the difference?

If they are one and the same, why did Jesus pray to himself?

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do".

Why would he explain something to himself and request something?

I believe a Christian follows Jesus and I do. I'm not so sure I have to follow Paul to find God however.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

What are peoples thoughts here on professed Christians who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the literal trinity? Are they still to be considered Christians?

Anti-Trinitarians are considered heretics. We Unitarians are anti-trinitarians and rather proud of our heresy. Anti-trinitarian beliefs date back to the 1st and 2nd century so its not a new concept.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Great post Bob, One question though, Jesus was sent by God to point us toward him, why must we pray to Jesus only now? If they are one and the same, what is the difference?

If they are one and the same, why did Jesus pray to himself?

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do".

Why would he explain something to himself and request something?

I believe a Christian follows Jesus and I do. I'm not so sure I have to follow Paul to find God however.

I don't know where Paul came in, to be honest. I don't really accept many of his doctrines.
I follow what Jesus said, and what Jesus said is to pray to God. Jesus didn't pray to himself; he prayed only to the Father (i.e. God) and instructed us to do the same.
The Messiah being God Incarnate has no basis in Judaism or in the teachings of Jesus himself, the way I see it. At the same time, however, I think that everything is Divine. This guarantees monotheism for me and makes absolutely sure that it is impossible for me to set up partners to God.

 

[internationalist]

why do you say that?

Think about it, you'll know.

 

[waitasec]

Think about it, you'll know.

my thoughts are not your thoughts....
you're going to have to explain that one, if you want to of course.

 

[roberttheromanian]

The Holy Trinity is most clearly represented in the Bible when the Lord Jesus was baptized by John in the river. Yes, you see our Lord in the water, but you see the Holy Spirit descend upon him as a dove, and you hear God call from the clouds above. The Trinity is relatively obvious, yet also confusing at the same time. It leads many to ask, "How can three separate beings all be quite literally one?" The simple answer, I suppose, is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from God, and hence gives us Christ through Mary, and also gives Christ his divine power. Thus, you can look directly to the Holy Spirit as the sort of "glue" which holds everything together.

 

[Katzpur]

The Holy Trinity is most clearly represented in the Bible when the Lord Jesus was baptized by John in the river. Yes, you see our Lord in the water, but you see the Holy Spirit descend upon him as a dove, and you hear God call from the clouds above. The Trinity is relatively obvious, yet also confusing at the same time. It leads many to ask, "How can three separate beings all be quite literally one?" The simple answer, I suppose, is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from God, and hence gives us Christ through Mary, and also gives Christ his divine power. Thus, you can look directly to the Holy Spirit as the sort of "glue" which holds everything together.

I think the question is, "What is meant by the word 'one'?" A single substance? A unity of will and purpose? How people would answer that question sheds a lot of light on how they understand the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

 

[kai]

This may be of interest:

A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, the Trinity is the belief that God is three separate persons but is still a single God.

BBC - Religions - Christianity: The Trinity

 

[Rathus]

I most definitely consider myself to be a Christian and I do not believe in the Trinity. (I'm referring to the doctrine established at the Council at Nicea in 325 A.D.) I do believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. I believe that Jesus is divine and was with His Father in the beginning. I believe that He created our universe under His Father's direction, that He was born to a virgin, lived a perfect life, established His Church, voluntarily offered Himself up as a sacrifice to pay for our sins, rose from the dead after three days, and ascended into Heaven where He reigns today on the right hand of His Father. I believe He is the only means by which I can be forgiven of my sins and return to God's presence to live with Him again someday. I guess you could say that I have pretty much the same understanding of Jesus Christ, His relationship to His Father, and our relationship to them that the first century Christians had.

I would say your understanding of who Jesus is and who God is . . . . is not the same as how "the first century Christians had."

The first century Christians (those who were circumcised) were monotheists. They were monotheists because they came from Judaism and were once a sect of Judaism. But as time went on, they became separate from Judaism and recognized as a distinct religion (Christianity).

The uncircumcised (Gentile) Christians may have come from a paganism background and had to learn that the so-called "gods" they formerly worshiped were not (in reality) true but false gods. They were to put away these false gods and their idols and embrace the one true God embodied in the person of Jesus Christ.

Now contrast this with modern day Mormonism. Has Mormonism renounced Lorenzo Snow's couplet "As Man is, God once was; as God is, Man may become." ?? Or is the idea that Man and God are the same species or that Man is a god in embryo still being taught in Mormonism? Clearly, this is NOT what the early first century Christians believed or taught. At least, we find no evidence of this in the New Testament scriptures.

 

[Rathus]

I think the question is, "What is meant by the word 'one'?" A single substance? A unity of will and purpose? How people would answer that question sheds a lot of light on how they understand the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

These discussions are really not all that different from the discussions Christians were having in the early centuries of the church.

One teaching was that God was "one" person. The Father alone was God and Jesus was his chosen messenger. A "son of God" just like the angels.

Another teaching was that God was "one" person. However the manifestations of this one individual was in three forms or modes. As a Father, and as a Son and as the Holy Spirit. Three forms, one person/God. Kind of like wearing three different hats or titles/jobs.

Of course others have taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each individual gods and they make up a quorum of one (one in purpose). This is nothing more than Tri-theism which is a form of polytheism.

None of the above teachings about God is accurate or true if we take the Bible at face value.

 

[javajo]

"Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test"
(Brigham Young, May 18, 1873, Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46.)

Following is a comparison between Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine. It will become very obvious that Mormonism does not agree with the Bible. In fact, Mormonism has simply used the same words found in Christianity and redefined them. But with a proper understanding of what Mormonism really teaches, you will be able to see past those definitions into the real differences between Christianity and Mormonism.
The difference is the difference between eternal life and damnation.

GOD:

Christian

• There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5)

• God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15).

• God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39).

Mormon

• "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3).

• "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

• "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's," (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10). "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

TRINITY:

Christian

• The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three eternal, simultaneous persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mormon

• The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

JESUS:

Christian

• Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23).

• Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17)

Mormon

• "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

• "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 547). . Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).

THE HOLY SPIRIT:

Christian

• The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not a force. He is a person. (Acts 5:3-4; 13:2)

Mormon

• Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God's presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity). "He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144).

SALVATION:

Christian

• Salvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God's grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned (Rom. 11:6).

• Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21).

Mormon

• Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . ."The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).

• "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).

BIBLE:

Christian

• The inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16).

Mormon

• It is authoritative in all subjects it addresses. "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." (8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church).

This is only a sample of many of the differences between Christianity and Mormonism. As you can see, they are quite different doctrines. God cannot be uncreated and created at the same time. There cannot be only one God and many gods at the same time. The Trinity cannot be one God in three persons and three gods in an office known as the Trinity, etc. These teachings are mutually exclusive.
This is important because faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Is the Mormon god the real one? Or, is the God of historic and biblical Christianity the real one?
Mormonism is obviously not the biblical version of Christianity. It is not Christian, and Mormons serve a different god than do the Christians -- a god that does not exist. Paul talks about this in Gal. 4:8, "when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods." Only the God of the Bible exists. There are no others. Mormonism puts its faith in a non-existent god. [From http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine]

 

[Katzpur]

Rathus, you're working on becoming my new chief antangonist, aren't you? That's okay. It's been awhile since I've had a good sparing partner.

I would say your understanding of who Jesus is and who God is . . . . is not the same as how "the first century Christians had."

The first century Christians (those who were circumcised) were monotheists. They were monotheists because they came from Judaism and were once a sect of Judaism. But as time went on, they became separate from Judaism and recognized as a distinct religion (Christianity).

The uncircumcised (Gentile) Christians may have come from a paganism background and had to learn that the so-called "gods" they formerly worshiped were not (in reality) true but false gods. They were to put away these false gods and their idols and embrace the one true God embodied in the person of Jesus Christ.

I'm as much a monotheist as you are. Ask any Muslim on this forum whether people who worship a God who has a Son are monotheistic or polytheistic? It's simply a matter of interpretation. I believe that the Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, equally divine, and united in will, purpose, mind and heart to such a degree that we cannot even begin to conceive of it. They are both "God." It is impossible to worship one of them without simultaneously worshipping the other. They think, feel, and act as "one." Christ's great intercessory prayer (recorded in John 17) makes it clear that when Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," He was not saying they were a single physical substance. If they were, we could not become "one" with them or in the same way as they were "one."

Now contrast this with modern day Mormonism. Has Mormonism renounced Lorenzo Snow's couplet "As Man is, God once was; as God is, Man may become." ?? Or is the idea that Man and God are the same species or that Man is a god in embryo still being taught in Mormonism? Clearly, this is NOT what the early first century Christians believed or taught. At least, we find no evidence of this in the New Testament scriptures.

Oh, I think we can find plenty of evidence that the early Christians believed pretty much the same thing as the Mormons did in this regard, but I would prefer that if we're going to discuss the doctrine known to Mormons as "Eternal Progression," we do so on another thread.

This thread appears to be asking a question whether professing Christians who either deny Christ's divinity (which definitely does not include Mormons) and with those who disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity (which does include Mormons) are really "Christians." I'd be happy to continue our conversation elsewhere, though. And welcome to the forum, by the way. :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

"Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test"
(Brigham Young, May 18, 1873, Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46.)

Following is a comparison between Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine. It will become very obvious that Mormonism does not agree with the Bible. In fact, Mormonism has simply used the same words found in Christianity and redefined them. But with a proper understanding of what Mormonism really teaches, you will be able to see past those definitions into the real differences between Christianity and Mormonism.

This is only a sample of many of the differences between Christianity and Mormonism. As you can see, they are quite different doctrines. God cannot be uncreated and created at the same time. There cannot be only one God and many gods at the same time. The Trinity cannot be one God in three persons and three gods in an office known as the Trinity, etc. These teachings are mutually exclusive.

This is important because faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Is the Mormon god the real one? Or, is the God of historic and biblical Christianity the real one?

Mormonism is obviously not the biblical version of Christianity. It is not Christian, and Mormons serve a different god than do the Christians -- a god that does not exist. Paul talks about this in Gal. 4:8, "when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods." Only the God of the Bible exists. There are no others. Mormonism puts its faith in a non-existent god. [From http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine]

javajo, I'm surprised at you. I had come to expect better. Rather than respond to the specific arguments you presented, I'm going to just give you the benefit of the doubt and post something I'd appreciate your keeping in mind in the future...

In a 2007 statement issued by the Church, the following guidelines were given as to what constitutes LDS doctrine:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Some of what you have posted about Mormon doctrine is actually reasonably accurate, but much of it is half-truth, exaggeration and intentional misrepresentation. I can assure you that CARM is about as good a source of information on LDS doctrine as the National Enquirer is on world news. If you want to know what Mormons really believe about Jesus Christ, ask a Mormon, not someone who hates Mormons.

 

[Katzpur]

These discussions are really not all that different from the discussions Christians were having in the early centuries of the church.

One teaching was that God was "one" person. The Father alone was God and Jesus was his chosen messenger. A "son of God" just like the angels.

Another teaching was that God was "one" person. However the manifestations of this one individual was in three forms or modes. As a Father, and as a Son and as the Holy Spirit. Three forms, one person/God. Kind of like wearing three different hats or titles/jobs.

Of course others have taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each individual gods and they make up a quorum of one (one in purpose). This is nothing more than Tri-theism which is a form of polytheism.

None of the above teachings about God is accurate or true if we take the Bible at face value.

I think what you're saying is that the Bible doesn't really explain the nature of God and the relationship between the members of the Godhead adequately, but that the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds do. Would that be an accurate statement?