The argument against Hell

[roli]

[.Averroes;2652339].

I'm sure this has been discussed here already, but I wanted to discuss the issue I personally have with the concept of Hell. This ethical issue is perhaps one of the ethical issues the Abrahamic faiths have concerning God's love and compassion for humankind. With the exception of Judaism, which from my understanding does not have a conceptual belief in hell, my main focus will be towards Christianity and Islam.

Hell is actually referred to in the old testament aswell as the new and therefore in Judaism thought......the hebrew word is sheol,meaning underworld,hell ,pit grave,and although there is no direct link to punishment in the old testament as Jesus speaks of , it is the abode of the dead, nonetheless, or another way to describe it is, the separated...this is my point.
Hell according to scripture thought is always suggestive of the notion that hell is not only an abode or place of the physical body after cessation of life, but a departure and separation of the soul from Gods presence and all that embodies his presence, which is suggestive throughout scripture as an existence unlike we know it in this physical realm, but it entails an eternal life,hope, peace, joy, comfort, possessing knowledge and awarness of your sorroundings, void of pain, hurt and misery,having roles and or positions in that life and many other pleasures.

Because this is about the problem of hell, it is therefore impossible to not discuss the issues of predestination and freewill but I would hope for the duration of this discussion/debate we can not go so deep into freewill/predestination argument and stay focus on the topic

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Freewill is an integral part of our human existence in every area of life, it is something we like to maintain we have...it is one of our strongest factors that quite possibly keep us sane, but freewill, often a misnomer and usually umbeknown to many, must be properly exercised only within the confines of universal laws that are self existent. If we are to be literally honest.....freewill is in its self, nonexistent. Although we can convince ourselves we have freewill to choose to do what we want, when we want, how we want, such as to walk across the street, drive the car, eat in a restaurant, go to work, go swimming, regardless of what we expose ourselves to....... it is however, regulated and always contingent upon, self existing governing laws that are constant and active and that we must conduct our lives in accordance with.
So in essence, are we really deluded into thinking we are freewill agents in this universe?......not in the absolute way as we would like to think or from the standpoint many skeptics tend to argue from in Christian debates.
Why does that arguement always rear its ugly head when debating about God, hell, heaven,creation etc.

One of the most peculiar things that occur to me about hell is that hell is considered a "just punishment" for those that transgress against God. However, one of the main issues that I find in hell is that because humans have a limited lifespan, humans therefore can only do a finite number amount of sin yet, upon death humans who transgress greatly, suffer infinite torment. I believe there was a philosopher who coined the term " La duración del Infierno" or that no transgression warrants infinite punishment because, there is no such thing as infinite transgression

If someone chooses to live outside the confines of universal laws and jump off a bridge,or out of a plane without a parchute, speed down a highway at twice the speed of light or even break a civil law..would you claim the inevitable outcome of those laws being violated in each case would be unjust. Meaning, if the car hit a tree that Johnny was driiving and he ejected into a stationary tree, is that unjust ...maybe sad, but within laws, there has to exist justice and or injustice. If I jumped from the plane without a parachute, much the same idea...justice!!!!!!!! regardless, if I defy one law with another, the laws still exists and justice must be served if there is a violation of one or the other. Justice is always waiting to be served.....when and where is all that is in question.
Our bodies work the same way....under universal and physiological laws...outside these, we die..is this unjust. I rob a bank and am sent to jail being your only kid would that be unjust.
I live near Niagra falls..many people jump or fall in by accident...the laws that are self existing demonstrated in sweeping people away..are they unjust...no, they are accepted and understood and most importantly, adhered to with the utmost respect

In accordance to the laws that are institued , an injustice is someone evading those laws or escaping them by defying them ..never actually eradicating them...therefore, in this regard, there is no actual freewill, if you really want to be literal.
I think maybe you don't understand that hell was not created for people, as scripture explains....but will be used to house those who violate the spiritual laws of God...that is another thread...!!!!!
So as we have a choice to adhere to laws in this universe and enjoy a long healthy existence.....so it is with God and abiding by his laws stipulated in is word and carried out with the hekp of his spirit

In this particular ideology shouldn't punishments in their duration fit the actual transgression, and not some unchanging present {e.g. infinity}?

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Sin is separation from God....Jesus according to scripture says he is the means to justify the ungodly from the consequences of their sinful violation of his laws, which are immutable.

Both Christianity and Islam postulate that sinning is avoidable, thus is the reason why God shows mercy upon sinning and since this is the case this is where we come to the problem of determinism. Since God knows before we do when, where, and why we are going to sin and knowing that Hell is very painful why doesn't God stop us? Violation of freewill? Well, if determinism is true then we never had a will to be free to begin with. But because Islam and Christianity defines "righteousness" not by simple moral acts of altruism but through simple moral acts along with the theological cognizance that there is One God, and that the person must too, acknowledge their respective prophet be it Jesus or Muhammad

Righteousness in christian scripture is imputed to the sinner by Christ and his sacrifice,as a free gift and only when recieved by the guilty is it actually applied

Another problem with the aforementioned two divine figures is that what defines true belief, and if this is defined how does this belief equate to morality? I see divine mercy not only as a conditional setting by which those of us who wish to not be eternally tortured forced to choose but a conditional setting by which these two famous religions deity sets. How is this god merciful when I am essentially forced to do good since I know hell is unpleasant? Basically, I am neither free to do right or wrong and the actions that I determined to be free are nothing more than a chain of determinants based on previous influences. Basically I am doomed whether I like it or not.

I apologize if I kind of covered several topics at once in several paragraphs but without trying to sound wordy I was trying to cover all my points. Please let me know if there is any confusion.

I will respond to this later..its been awhile since I have been on ...hoping this will send correctly.

thanks roli

 

[Pegg]

Yeah but Hebrew scriptures also adopted idea of Sheol from the Romans Hades

No. Sheol is a hebrew word, hades is a greek word. The hebrew scriptures were written long before the Jews were speaking greek. Throughout the oldest hebrew scriptures, the word they used for the grave was sheol'

it wasnt until the 3rd century bce when they first translated the hebrew scriptures into greek that they used the greek word hades as the translation for Sheol. Hades meant the same thing as Sheol did...the grave.

 

[waitasec]

my argument against hell is that it is so conveniently set up for someone other that "me"

 

[Me Myself]

my argument against hell is that it is so conveniently set up for someone other that "me"

Sorry, I think you mispelled something, let me correct it.

my argument against hell is that it is such a cruel set up for someone other that "me"

 

[Averroes]

How is hell comparable to universal laws?

How are finite sins punishable with infinite torment?

 

[Landerage]

For me as a muslim, Hell is considered a place for purification from sins, aswell as a place for endless suffery to those who committed the greatest sins. As God says, there are different degrees in he'll same goes for heaven. In my personal opinion, suffery in he'll might vary from a pinch of a needle that would provoke little pain, to a endless fire exposure. God points out in the Qur'an that some people who committed great sins, will suffer forever and the suffery will never decrease in pain, but for other people it might be decreased and lowered if minor sins were committed. And i remember reading in a book, about people getting purified from their sins and when that is done, sent back to heaven. But those had faith in God however deliberately chose to commit great sins.
As for the endless punishments, I think it would address people who made a whole humanity suffer because of them or caused the deviation of a large number of humans from the path of God. As God says, everything is counted, and each have the punishment that suits his sins.
Before asking God to stop us from committing a sin, why we don't use our own consciousness to realize that is a sin and try as much as possible to avoid it ? God asks us to do the best we can in life, and each human's capacity is different from the other so every human is judged differentely.
You are not forced to do good, every human can choose to do evil and eventually go to hell. But a human being is an intelligent, logical creature, why would a human cut his own arm if he's not crazy?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

For me as a muslim, Hell is considered a place for purification from sins, aswell as a place for endless suffery to those who committed the greatest sins. As God says, there are different degrees in he'll same goes for heaven. In my personal opinion, suffery in he'll might vary from a pinch of a needle that would provoke little pain, to a endless fire exposure. God points out in the Qur'an that some people who committed great sins, will suffer forever and the suffery will never decrease in pain, but for other people it might be decreased and lowered if minor sins were committed. And i remember reading in a book, about people getting purified from their sins and when that is done, sent back to heaven. But those had faith in God however deliberately chose to commit great sins.
As for the endless punishments, I think it would address people who made a whole humanity suffer because of them or caused the deviation of a large number of humans from the path of God. As God says, everything is counted, and each have the punishment that suits his sins.
Before asking God to stop us from committing a sin, why we don't use our own consciousness to realize that is a sin and try as much as possible to avoid it ? God asks us to do the best we can in life, and each human's capacity is different from the other so every human is judged differentely.
You are not forced to do good, every human can choose to do evil and eventually go to hell. But a human being is an intelligent, logical creature, why would a human cut his own arm if he's not crazy?

Hell is not eternal according to Islam. The following show this:

[11:107] As for those who will prove unfortunate, they shall be in the Fire, wherein there shall be for them sighing and sobbing,
[11:108] Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases.
[11:109] But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off.

there will come on hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none left in it. That will happen after the inmates of hell will have stayed in it for centuries.(Musnad)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Averroes, is there any particular reason why you so carefully avoid addressing this?

Yeah but Hebrew scriptures also adopted idea of Sheol from the Romans Hades

And your evidence? Genesis 37:35 was adopted from the Romans? :no:

Yeah but Hebrew scriptures also adopted idea of Sheol from the Romans Hades

No. Sheol is a hebrew word, hades is a greek word. The hebrew scriptures were written long before the Jews were speaking greek. Throughout the oldest hebrew scriptures, the word they used for the grave was sheol'

Plodding along with your eyes wide shut isn't particularly useful.

 

[Averroes]

Averroes, is there any particular reason why you so carefully avoid addressing this?

​

Plodding along with your eyes wide shut isn't particularly useful.

I was actually going to address that.

My evidence unfortunately is ancedotal, and from my memories in college from philosophy of religion class where we disscused Sheol and the Greco-Roman belief of Hades. Now in my understanding Hades is a dwelling place for the good and bad alike to be forever if memory serves me right.

 

[Antiochian]

I think the idea that a loving God would allow someone to go to a hell is terrible. On the other hand, I have a hard time disbelieving it when I read of the deeds of a serial killer or child abuser. It's one of the teachings of my UU church that I struggle with. Let's put it this way: I don't believe in a petty God who throws Grandma into the lake of fire because she was a shaman who failed to embrace the "truth" of evangelcal Christianity (assuming God's evangelical). But then there's the evil of someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, the guy who beats the snot out of his wife and kids and destroys their lives, the politician who gets rich while his/her constituents starve, and doesn't care. I don't know what happens after death, but I'd like to think there is justice if we survive death at all.

 

[Averroes]

I think the idea that a loving God would allow someone to go to a hell is terrible. On the other hand, I have a hard time disbelieving it when I read of the deeds of a serial killer or child abuser. It's one of the teachings of my UU church that I struggle with. Let's put it this way: I don't believe in a petty God who throws Grandma into the lake of fire because she was a shaman who failed to embrace the "truth" of evangelcal Christianity (assuming God's evangelical). But then there's the evil of someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, the guy who beats the snot out of his wife and kids and destroys their lives, the politician who gets rich while his/her constituents starve, and doesn't care. I don't know what happens after death, but I'd like to think there is justice if we survive death at all.

Indeed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was actually going to address that.

Excellent.

My evidence unfortunately is ancedotal, and from my memories in college from philosophy of religion class where we disscused Sheol and the Greco-Roman belief of Hades.

Clearly not so excellent.

Now in my understanding Hades is a dwelling place for the good and bad alike to be forever if memory serves me right.

That's nice.

Now, how do you account for Genesis 37:35? This might be a good time to go back to the drawing board so to speak. Yes?

 

[Landerage]

Hell is not eternal according to Islam. The following show this:

And what does 64:10 of the Qur'an say ?

 

[Averroes]

Excellent.

Clearly not so excellent.


That's nice.

Now, how do you account for Genesis 37:35? This might be a good time to go back to the drawing board so to speak. Yes?

I read the verse. What do you want to discuss? The usage of the word "grave?"

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I read the verse. What do you want to discuss? The usage of the word "grave?"

Guess what it is in Hebrew.

Guess whether or not it was "adopted from the Roman Hades".

Guess why I think that your claim that "Hebrew scriptures also adopted idea of Sheol from the Romans Hades" has zero credibility.

And guess why I think making such claims without doing even the most basic investigation is irresponsible.​

 

[Averroes]

Guess what it is in Hebrew.

Guess whether or not it was "adopted from the Roman Hades".

Guess why I think that your claim that "Hebrew scriptures also adopted idea of Sheol from the Romans Hades" has zero credibility.

And guess why I think making such claims without doing even the most basic investigation is irresponsible.​

Guess why I still think even the idea of Sheol and Greco-Roman idea on hell is similar.

Guess why when I do a basic google search of Hades, Sheol pops up

Guess what I found when I actually did a google search?

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tariqkhwaja]

And what does 64:10 of the Qur'an say ?

Well that verse further supports that hell is not eternal. (note that verse numbers are different because Bismillah is included in the counting).

[64:10] The day when He shall gather you, on the Day of Gathering, that will be the day of mutual loss and gain. And whoso believes in Allah and does good deeds — He will remove from them the evil consequences of their deeds and He will make them enter Gardens through which streams flow, to abide therein for ever. That is the supreme triumph.
[64:11] But as to those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, these shall be the inmates of the Fire, wherein they shall abide; and an evil destination it is!

The difference is
for heaven it is: Khalideena Fiha Abada (to abide therein for ever) while
for hell it is: Khalideena Fiha (to abide therein) without "Abada" (forever)

So thanks for pointing that out.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

[72:24], [4,170], [33:66], mention "Abada" in relation to hell. However, heaven is not mentioned next to those verses (as comparison) while in 64:10-11 a comparison of heaven and hell is shown with "Abada" only referring to heaven.

To explain "Abada" in relation to hell it may mean a "long time" as per Lane
Alif

Alif-Ba-Dal = he remained/stayed, abode, dwelt constantly/permanently, to render perpetual, time (in an absolute sense), long time, endless/eternal/forever, unlimited/indivisible, lasting/everlasting, unsocial/unfamiliar, never (when used in negative construction).

In view of the other Quranic verses the only way to resolve both verses is to accept that "Abada" in the case of hell means for a long time but heaven is a gift that will not be cut off.

 

[Pegg]

I was actually going to address that.

My evidence unfortunately is ancedotal, and from my memories in college from philosophy of religion class where we disscused Sheol and the Greco-Roman belief of Hades. Now in my understanding Hades is a dwelling place for the good and bad alike to be forever if memory serves me right.

when the Jews translated their hebrew scriptures into the Greek Septuagint version in the 3rd century bce, they translate the Hebrew word sheʼohl′ as “Hades”

so back then, the jews who knew the greek language chose hades as the word which described the 'grave'. In some way, the grave is the 'abode of the dead' because that is where we put the dead. But unlike the greek belief in the afterlife, the hebrew belief was that the dead returned to the dust and that is where they stayed in an unconscious state.

 

[Pegg]

Guess why I still think even the idea of Sheol and Greco-Roman idea on hell is similar.

Guess why when I do a basic google search of Hades, Sheol pops up

Guess what I found when I actually did a google search?

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you shouldn't put too much stock in wikipedia... it is riddled with innacuracy.

ie the wicki article states:
Sheol (

/ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew [FONT=&quot]שְׁאוֹל[/FONT] Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.

Sheol is called the 'grave' and 'pit', why? Because it is literally the hole in the dirt where a person is buried. That is what it is. And like its greek counterpart, Hades, it is 'concealed place'

But what the hebrew scriptures say about the state of death has nothing to do with sheol. Sheol is a tomb, a burial place, a hole in the ground... the dead who go there are said to be 'unconscious'
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all

so in the mind of the hebrew writers, sheol was not a place for an 'afterlife'... it was a place where there was NO LIFE at all.