Would it be best for evolutionists to just ignore creationsts?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My own impression of Darwin's religious evolution is that he went from being a Bible-believing Christian to becoming something of a more liberal Christian when he was aboard the Beagle.

I think his religious views shifted throughout his life, but I think it started earlier than that.

He went to Cambridge with the intent of becoming a priest. Partway through his time there, he wrote to his cousin to say that he wasn't sure if he'd be able to sign the articles of the Church of England (one of the graduation requirements at the time) in good conscience.

I've read that he actually described himself as an agnostic in one letter near the end of his life. But he was on his local church parish's board until his death.

After reading an essay by Stephen Jay Gould titled "Darwin's Sea Change: Or Five Years At the Captain's Table", I came to think that having to put up with the captain of the Beagle really dimmed his view of Christianity, coupled with the horrible thought that his father, grandfather, and other freethinkers in his family would suffer for eternity in hell.

Could be. I read that essay, too... but it was years ago and I can't remember much of it.

When he was conducting his research on the origin of species, I think the quote you mentioned above shows that he embraced a sort of deism. There was a creator who made the universe, designed the laws of the universe, and may have even made the very first life forms, but since then left natural selection to take over for him.

Maybe. I think it's also possible that he was just willing to employ the sort of religiously-flavoured language that was de rigeur at the time.

I'm not sure what Darwin's beliefs were when he wrote On the Origin of Species; my point with Man of Faith was just to point out that the language of the text didn't exclude God.

I think he transitioned from being a deist, to being an agnostic, then to being an agnostic nontheist. I think it was the death of his daughter which destroyed a belief in any kind of god, loving or not. Losing his daughter may have been the straw that broke the camel's back for him.

Could be. I think the death of his son was also a blow... though since that occurred after Origin was written, it doesn't fit as well into the made-up "Darwin's evolution is anti-theism" narrative.

Edit: also, I think that it's important to distinguish between Darwin's personal religious beliefs and his views about religion's place in society. Even when he apparently lost his own personal faith, he still supported his church and denomination... and he did that right until his death, as I mentioned earlier.

 

[Photonic]

Thank-you for your reply. I still believe in Creation over evolution. You have a nice day, and again, thanks for your reply.

It would seem to me you are simply holding to a personal bias instead of actual facts.

 

[javajo]

It would seem to me you are simply holding to a personal bias instead of actual facts.

Nah, I tried my best to believe in evolution in my early twenties so I could justify my sinful lifestyle. The facts led me to believe in Creation and deeper faith in Christ.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nah, I tried my best to believe in evolution in my early twenties so I could justify my sinful lifestyle.

Wait... what?

Can you step us through that thought process? How do you get from "the variety of life is caused by the interaction of natural selection, inheritance, and mutation" to "it's okay for me to sin"?

Frankly, at first glance, your statement makes as much sense as someone saying "I learned Swahili to help my bowling."

 

[Photonic]

Nah, I tried my best to believe in evolution in my early twenties so I could justify my sinful lifestyle. The facts led me to believe in Creation and deeper faith in Christ.

How is that physically possible? How can you come to such a wild conclusion if you have truly educated yourself on the topic?

It is such a massive leap in logic I simply must know.


One, religion and ToE have little if anything to do with one another.

Two you can very easily know ToE is fact and still be religious.

Relatively the same point but I thought it was so important to point out that I did it twice.

It's like saying because you studied the facts and don't believe in gravity, so you jumped off a building. The only reason you do so with evolution is because it won't kill you if you don't know it.

It's a damn good thing there are people out there that DO adhere to evolution, because your life would be quite a bit shorter if they didn't.

 

[javajo]

Wait... what?

Can you step us through that thought process? How do you get from "the variety of life is caused by the interaction of natural selection, inheritance, and mutation" to "it's okay for me to sin"?

Frankly, at first glance, your statement makes as much sense as someone saying "I learned Swahili to help my bowling."

Now you sound like my wife. Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want. Communist dictators are a good example.

 

[javajo]

How is that physically possible? How can you come to such a wild conclusion if you have truly educated yourself on the topic?

It is such a massive leap in logic I simply must know.


One, religion and ToE have little if anything to do with one another.

Two you can very easily know ToE is fact and still be religious.

Relatively the same point but I thought it was so important to point out that I did it twice.

It's like saying because you studied the facts and don't believe in gravity, so you jumped off a building. The only reason you do so with evolution is because it won't kill you if you don't know it.

It's a damn good thing there are people out there that DO adhere to evolution, because your life would be quite a bit shorter if they didn't.

Call me crazy, I just think the Theory of Evolution is completely and utterly absurd, as I'm sure you feel the same way about the Theory of Creation, and I respect that.

 

[Draka]

Wait... what?

Can you step us through that thought process? How do you get from "the variety of life is caused by the interaction of natural selection, inheritance, and mutation" to "it's okay for me to sin"?

Frankly, at first glance, your statement makes as much sense as someone saying "I learned Swahili to help my bowling."

I don't get it either. Evolution has nothing to do with religion. So how could accepting it have anything to do with sins? There are a great many theists who have no problem accepting evolution and it doesn't affect their faith at all. So why would one think that if they accept evolution that it will automatically negate their faith? :areyoucra

 

[Draka]

Now you sound like my wife. Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want. Communist dictators are a good example.

Wait, evolution makes no claim about the existence of a god. It doesn't even touch on it. It's just about natural selection and the progress of species. So why would you think accepting the facts would mean that your god doesn't exist? Does your god require you to ignore scientific facts? Can you accept gravity and light speed and electricity?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now you sound like my wife. Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want. Communist dictators are a good example.

Hmm. Would it be inappropriate to point out that most of the anti-religious sentiment that wound up in the Communist movement came from people being fed up with generations upon generations where religious leaders helped states do whatever they wanted?

But still... I don't think what you're saying makes sense. I agree that God isn't necessary for evolution, but it doesn't say that God must not exist either. For your acceptance of evolution to have any logical hope of leading you to the conclusion you say it did, you must not have any reason for your belief in God except needing an explanation for where the diversity of life came from.

I mean, if you had faith because, say, you thought that Jesus had demonstrated his divinity, then evolution wouldn't matter: evolution doesn't say either way whether God exists or not, but you'd have this other thing that would still lead you to belief.

So it sounds like either:

- your thinking here is based on false premises, or
- you have a really flimsy basis for faith (... or at least you did in your 20s)

 

[javajo]

I'm not going to argue with you folks. I believe what I believe. I respect your beliefs as well. God bless you.

 

[Photonic]

I'm not going to argue with you folks. I believe what I believe. I respect your beliefs as well. God bless you.

In other words; "I don't have anything to base my belief on, so I'm going to stick my fingers into my ears."

Not sure why you are posting in this thread then...

 

[javajo]

I believe Jesus walked on water, too, so...

 

[Draka]

I'm not going to argue with you folks. I believe what I believe. I respect your beliefs as well. God bless you.

Uh, okie dokie, but evolution is no more a belief of mine than knowing that the earth revolves around the sun and knowing that if I stick my hand on a lit stove burner that it will be hot. Unless of course you are speaking of my actual religious beliefs, which btw, in no way contradict scientific fact or rely on scientific fact to be wrong in order for me to keep believing.

 

[Photonic]

Uh, okie dokie, but evolution is no more a belief of mine than knowing that the earth revolves around the sun and knowing that if I stick my hand on a lit stove burner that it will be hot. Unless of course you are speaking of my actual religious beliefs, which btw, in no way contradict scientific fact or rely on scientific fact to be wrong in order for me to keep believing.

I think we just got trolled.

 

[Draka]

I believe Jesus walked on water, too, so...

So did Criss Angel. And?

 

[Tristesse]

Do atheists allow God in science class? My understanding of Darwin's writings are more inline with and validated with what is taught in schools, a godless evolution and man came from an ape like creature, that no one has ever seen.

Which god? And by allow in science class, what do you mean exactly?

When discussing evolution there is no need to mention a god, it's not required. Well, not only is it not required but there isn't any evidence to make that assertion.

 

[javajo]

So did Criss Angel. And?

If he dies and comes back to life, let me know.

 

[Draka]

If he dies and comes back to life, let me know.

What if he did?

 

[doppelganger]

I'm not going to argue with you folks. I believe what I believe. I respect your beliefs as well. God bless you.

However, pushing a religious agenda through a public school science class is not respectful of others' beliefs. Evolution says nothing about "God". That's simply not the purpose of the theory. It is a scientific model for explaining the diversity of living organisms and the relationships between them. If you think a holy book has a different explanatory model and want to teach that on the basis of its authority in your religious tradition rather than a rigorous application of the scientific method, you are welcome to do so without government funding or in religion classes. Just be honest that it's not about science, but about spreading or pushing religious faith, and the whole fake "controversy" disappears.