What is the greatest illusion?

[Orias]

Perhaps for them there is no difference between the two?

I agree, "In God we trust".

Its clear, God is on our money

 

[chinu]

Perhaps for them there is no difference between the two?

don't let them listen this -- illusion will become more powerfull.


_/\_
Chinu

 

[rsd]

rsd said:

So the point is, "the grand illusion" is that so many people will deny this as having anything to do with them - that their eternal nature is to serve God for His pleasure.

I understand, but translated into my own terms this would read, "that they recognize and learn to live in the fullness of their inner nature, by trusting themselves and their abilities, allowing them to see reality as it is, not as they think it should be."

So yes, recognizing one's (eternal/dharma) nature is certainly a huge step in extricating oneself from the grand illusion. I think you are then saying that this is accomplished by TRUSTING in ourselves and our abilities, relevant to living according to one's inner nature...and that this would break illusion and lead to reality (the realm of our inner nature).

Where I would add to this is that instead of trusting in OURSELVES, rather, trust in a spiritual master is needed.

SAINT NICEPHORUS—"It is necessary to look for a spiritual director."

MARK 1:9—"Then one day Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee, and was baptized by John (the Baptist) there in the Jordan River."

THE PILGRIM—"I read the Bible and asked for the whereabouts of a spiritual teacher."

 

[YmirGF]

Where I would add to this is that instead of trusting in OURSELVES, rather, trust in a spiritual master is needed.

I will meet you half way. To a point, yes, others may be helpful directing you to what is already within yourself, however, exposure to the reality of Oneness will quickly dissolve the need for such crutches.

 

[rsd]

I will meet you half way. To a point, yes, others may be helpful directing you to what is already within yourself, however, exposure to the reality of Oneness will quickly dissolve the need for such crutches.

So that I can understand, what do you mean by The Reality of Oneness?

 

[The Wizard]

The greatest religious authority in my life has said that the eternal constitutional nature of the soul is to render service to God. Otherwise, real happiness is impossible. This is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita.

Now, how many people do you know would come right out with this concept immediately, if asked what is their eternal nature. I think a lot of members on this forum would sit and argue that God doesn't even exist. As I said, I'll trust in the
holy words of God over anybody. Thankfully, what He had to say has been amply recorded.

So the point is, "the grand illusion" is that so many people will deny this as having anything to do with them - that their eternal nature is to serve God for His pleasure .

Interesting... I guess to stay on topic and reply to this.. Another grand illusion would be for someone to think that a belief system needs to also be "a scientific evidence system" to be considered valid, create values or to work..... imo.

 

[YmirGF]

So that I can understand, what do you mean by The Reality of Oneness?

Well, that's not quite how I stated it, I said, "exposure to the reality of Oneness".

The statement means:
1. Oneness is real
2. Exposure to said state necessarily dissolves subject/object divisions.

The idea being that if there is no subject/object division (only being) then the master is no more and their is only Oneness (which, in my viewpoint, is the root of multidimensional personality). My preference is to cut out the middle man as soon as possible. Teachers can only teach you so much before you have to roll up your sleeves and do the heavy lifting yourself.

So, to get back on track, for me, the greatest illusion would be that a teacher is needed to help you to touch that aspect of being that has been shining behind your eyes all along.

 

[chinu]

I believe in God and I also believe that life consist of many things, including a grand illusion. What do you see as this grand illusion? What is life's greatest illusion?

Now i think life's gratest illusion is -- discussions on the topic of illusion.

For example: There is one thread on RF named: "The last post is the winner" (Nice Thread)

illusion means explore, and explore, and explore..... which never ends.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[rsd]

Well, that's not quite how I stated it, I said, "exposure to the reality of Oneness".

The statement means:
1. Oneness is real
2. Exposure to said state necessarily dissolves subject/object divisions.

The idea being that if there is no subject/object division (only being) then the master is no more and their is only Oneness (which, in my viewpoint, is the root of multidimensional personality). My preference is to cut out the middle man as soon as possible. Teachers can only teach you so much before you have to roll up your sleeves and do the heavy lifting yourself.

So, to get back on track, for me, the greatest illusion would be that a teacher is needed to help you to touch that aspect of being that has been shining behind your eyes all along.

YmirGF - Thank you for your comments above. As you know I posted this back up on the chain a bit:

SAINT NICEPHORUS—"It is necessary to look for a spiritual director."

MARK 1:9—"Then one day Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee, and was baptized by John (the Baptist) there in the Jordan River."

THE PILGRIM—"I read the Bible and asked for the whereabouts of a spiritual teacher."

Of course, this is just a drop in the bucket compared to similar statements that could be listed - millions of them. The problem I have with adopting your way of thinking ("to cut out the middle man as soon as possible"), is that this would kind of be like me saying that I am smarter than all these great saints. Seriously? Who am I? I am a sinful nothing who has caused so much pain. So I have a problem rejecting the verdict of the saints. They would never say, "cut out the middle man as soon as possible" I cannot climb up on some soapbox and claim to know more than they do. Same with atheist who say there is no God. Oh how they love to tell us about that. Well, fine. I guess if they want to go down that road, so be it. If they want to proclaim to the world how smart they are, how more advanced they are, how more enlightened they are, how more intelligent they are...whatever. Without the mercy of Jesus Christ, without the mercy of Nityananda, I know that I will simply wither spiritually. Without the mercy and grace of the spiritual master, I know that I will never see my dreams and aspirations fulfilled. I know this because the spiritual master has given me the grace to understand. Without him I would probably be writing, "cut out the middle man as soon as possible."

As far as oneness, yes, that is there. As far as heavy lifting being required, of course. But that heavy lifting is serving the spiritual master, not cutting him out. That heavy lifting is serving God, not cutting out those who are most dear to Him. God is so brilliant that when viewed with the lens of material contamination, all you can see is light. So many people want to merge into this light and feel or be part of the oneness of it all. They have no idea that with eyes blessed by the spiritual master, with love of God, that one can see past the oneness of the brillance of God's effulgence and enter into the clear and distinct world of God. This vision and participation requires the proper eyes to see and the grace of God to enter. Then you experience your eternal spiritual body. And sitting by your side will be your spiritual master smiling at you. Welcome home grasshopper.

 

[YmirGF]

Thank you for your comments above. As you know I posted this back up on the chain a bit:

SAINT NICEPHORUS—"It is necessary to look for a spiritual director."

MARK 1:9—"Then one day Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee, and was baptized by John (the Baptist) there in the Jordan River."

THE PILGRIM—"I read the Bible and asked for the whereabouts of a spiritual teacher."

Understood. I remember specifically ignoring these comments. To me, they are simply irrelevant.

Of course, this is just a drop in the bucket compared to similar statements that could be listed - millions of them.

Yes, I am aware of many of the sentiments. The drivel is somewhat endless, isn't it?

The problem I have with adopting your way of thinking ("to cut out the middle man as soon as possible"), is that this would kind of be like me saying that I am smarter than all these great saints.

Not necessarily. These quotations are often used to buttress each other, based on assumptions that offer little proof beyond faith based perspectives.

Who am I? I am a sinful nothing who has caused so much pain.

Oh good grief, stop wallowing in the self-pity for a moment. Look, I do not even subscribe to the idea of sin, regardless of what these dimwitted "saints' have said over the ages. You are without sin, get off your knees. Live in the light and treat yourself with the dignity it deserves.

So I have a problem rejecting the verdict of the saints. They would never say, "cut out the middle man as soon as possible"

Of course they wouldn't, that would put them out of a job. Heaven forbid they tell people that, "Hey, you don't need me, babe." Rather, they have a tendency to create this unhealthy dependency relationship, placing themselves at the helm of your destiny. Look around you, how well is that unhealthy dependency relationship working in our world? I'd say, in general, they have been a colossal failure.

I cannot climb up on some soapbox and claim to know more than they do.

You don't have to. Just use your brain. Look around you. Look at what following the advice of these spiritual nitwits has done for our world. Peachy, eh? And you want us to follow them still...... *sigh*

Same with atheist who say there is no God. Oh how they love to tell us about that. Well, fine. I guess if they want to go down that road, so be it.

I am, by choice, a different kind of atheist. I sense "something" in reality, however, due to the attitudes of people who believe in "god" I am unable to support their belief. I once thought that I was dealing with "god", even after meeting "him" on more than one occasion. Now, I prefer to say that I am not arrogant enough to claim what I see and what I met IS GOD. I don't know what it was, but it sure wasn't anything like the god so many imagine. It was far, far, far more.... and yet, I am loathed to call it "god" because I don't want to give people the idea that I am, in any way supprting THEIR idea of god. PERIOD.

If they want to proclaim to the world how smart they are, how more advanced they are, how more enlightened they are, how more intelligent they are...whatever. Without the mercy of Jesus Christ, without the mercy of Nityananda, I know that I will simply wither spiritually.

If you truly believe that, then so it shall be. Nice work nailing the lid down on your thinking though.

Without the mercy and grace of the spiritual master, I know that I will never see my dreams and aspirations fulfilled.

If you truly believe that then you have just guaranteed that no other outcome is possible. What you are describing is NOT reality, per se, but rather, your perception of reality. To change this reality, you need only change your perception. To do that you must change your views about reality. To do that, you will have to desire change. With no desire, you are stuck with your lot. Good luck.

I know this because the spiritual master has given me the grace to understand. Without him I would probably be writing, "cut out the middle man as soon as possible."

And believing thus you probably don't understand what I mean by "natural grace". You are a high level primate. Relish in your being. Forsake your notions of sin and live in the light of knowing you are a part, through which, Oneness shines. It is so very sad that anyone needs to be told such a basic truth. I guess we have all those "all knowing" saints and sages to thank for the present condition of the human animal. "Way to go, guys."

As far as oneness, yes, that is there. As far as heavy lifting being required, of course. But that heavy lifting is serving the spiritual master, not cutting him out.

I beg to differ. If you stick around, you will understand that I do that quite a bit. Oneness is a bit more than most will glibly tell you. The sole purpose of the so-called spiritual master is to awaken the individual to the reality of the inner self. There is no other purpose. Once the student is aware of their inner being, the spiritual master's work is done. THAT is when the spiritual heavy lifting STARTS. Awakening is akin to child's play, living a life of a self-realized being is the hard part. For that, you don't need a spiritual master, you just need loving people.

That heavy lifting is serving God, not cutting out those who are most dear to Him.

I utterly dispise the idea that "god" has favorites. Good grief.

God is so brilliant that when viewed with the lens of material contamination, all you can see is light.

Perhaps you may understand why I list my religion as "Beyond the Light". Maybe...

So many people want to merge into this light and feel or be part of the oneness of it all. They have no idea that with eyes blessed by the spiritual master, with love of God, that one can see past the oneness of the brilliance of God's effulgence and enter into the clear and distinct world of God. This vision and participation requires the proper eyes to see and the grace of God to enter. Then you experience your eternal spiritual body. And sitting by your side will be your spiritual master smiling at you. Welcome home grasshopper.

I suppose many have to start somewhere.

 

[cAmigo]

it depends on people in my opinion

 

[rsd]

it depends on people in my opinion

Well, yes. However, I also think there is a certain level of illusion that takes it out of the realm of most people's grasp. There are enlightened souls, and those who are not. I can step on toes by saying that atheist are in total illusion. I don't mean that they are not nice people, and I'm sure they have contributed greatly to making my everyday life more enjoyable. And I thank them! I also think those who believe in God are also bound by illusion. I also think there are different types and levels of illusion. Personally, I am too dim witted to sort it all out. But I don't have to see the skunk to know it's out there.

 

[Marble]

I believe in God and I also believe that life consist of many things, including a grand illusion. What do you see as this grand illusion? What is life's greatest illusion?

Identification with a mortal body.

 

[YmirGF]

Identification with a mortal body.

I tend to agree. The totality of my being cannot be encapsulated in a single physical body, though such physical bodies are like an artistic medium utilized to express my reality in physical terms.

 

[Johnathan]

The Buddhists think that everything is illusory. This can apply to even our concepts of God or morality.

I think that the greatest illusions are those that we have collectively created for ourselves: namely that we must be responsible to a some "supreme diety" which dictates our morals.

By believing in false gods, people naturally suppress their inner strength and set up both mental, physical and social boundaries. NEVER be obedient to some "higher god"...instead "do what thou wilt" and decide for yourself what feels right and hence it will be right.

 

[DreadFish]

To me the greatest illusion is the thought of an independent unchanging self.

I think the principle can be applied to all phenomena as well.

So, the greatest illusion is the belief that any and/or all conditioned phenomena possess an independent, unchanging self nature.

Mind is mind because of things, as things are things because of mind.


EDIT: To clarify this statement: the reason why I think this is the greatest illusion is because, it is said that once one realizes the illusory nature of these things then one is aware of the inter-connectivity and non-dual nature of reality. Once there is no self and other, then all discontentment and suffering ceases.

 

[YmirGF]

To me the greatest illusion is the thought of an independent unchanging self.

Agreed 100%. From my viewpoint our "larger identity" is in a constant state of flux and is ever growing. It's a "process" that has no end.

To clarify this statement: the reason why I think this is the greatest illusion is because, it is said that once one realizes the illusory nature of these things then one is aware of the inter-connectivity and non-dual nature of reality. Once there is no self and other, then all discontentment and suffering ceases.

I disagree. I am, however, willing to admit that suffering is greatly diminished, as one begins to understand how their experience is created. Personally, I never wish to relinquish discontent, as I have no wish to gather moss and be content thinking I have figured it all out. I don't see that as being possible. But... if you mean discontent with the results of ordinary actions, then, for sure. Discontent with your actions should only serve to highlight that one needs to make changes to said actions. What to change and how to change is the spice that keeps life so delicious.

 

[DreadFish]

I disagree. I am, however, willing to admit that suffering is greatly diminished, as one begins to understand how their experience is created. Personally, I never wish to relinquish discontent, as I have no wish to gather moss and be content thinking I have figured it all out. I don't see that as being possible. But... if you mean discontent with the results of ordinary actions, then, for sure. Discontent with your actions should only serve to highlight that one needs to make changes to said actions. What to change and how to change is the spice that keeps life so delicious.

Yes, I think what I meant is more along the lines of: having realized that there is no independent self, one no longer strives for to gain something for this perceived self, thus, one no longer feels elated with perceived gain, nor depressed with perceived loss. With gain or loss out of the picture, theres not much else to do but to assume enlightened nature and relax in the stream of events. Of course I wouldnt assume at this point that one thinks they "know it all" because at this point there is nothing to know because to gain knowledge assumes that there is something separate from the perceived self to attain, and the realization of the illusory self nature of all conditioned phenomena destroys this illusion.

 

[cAmigo]

Well, yes. However, I also think there is a certain level of illusion that takes it out of the realm of most people's grasp. There are enlightened souls, and those who are not. I can step on toes by saying that atheist are in total illusion. I don't mean that they are not nice people, and I'm sure they have contributed greatly to making my everyday life more enjoyable. And I thank them! I also think those who believe in God are also bound by illusion. I also think there are different types and levels of illusion. Personally, I am too dim witted to sort it all out. But I don't have to see the skunk to know it's out there.

Yes, that's what I meant when I said that it depends on people. It apply to them depending on their situation.
I can say that the great illusion is for a person to think they are right while they are wrong.

 

[rsd]

I can say that the great illusion is for a person to think they are right while they are wrong.

Never thought about that aspect. How true! You know, this is why I put my trust in certain others. It boils down to an honest assessment of my own, total lack of clarity ...and an absolute trust that the ones I DO put my faith in, ARE right. I do believe in an ultimate right.