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Is atheism absurd?

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
I have seen some pretty tough men get all mushy on their death bed and plead for a miracle.

I'm not a "tough guy". I am actually totally at peace with dying. I could die tomorrow and I am not at least bothered by it. If I died, then I would take it with grace.

My father in law would typically threaten anyone with bodily harm that tried to talk to him about God.

Your father-in-law sounds like he had a serious anger issue. I can't imagine threatening anyone with bodily harm just because that person wants to talk with me about the divine being that this person happens to worship. If someone wanted to tell me what that person believes, fine. If that person wanted to share with me the reasons that person had for believing-fine. If that person asked me to believe or tried to "witness" to me, I would very politely decline interest.

He died a slow death stricken with lung and throat cancer. On his death bed he became very desperate for anything that would give him more time. At one point he finally said yes when asked if he would invite God into his life. Desperate men do desperate things. His is only one example, but I could name several others that I have witnessed over the years, as one who has been called by family members to the bedside of those that were on their deathbed.

Very truly, I'm sorry to hear that. I cannot imagine asking for any divine being to come into my life. Bear in mind that I considered myself a born-again Christian for years. A decade to be exact. I wasn't one of these people who only went to church once or twice and year and answered "Christian" to anyone who asked. I seriously believed that the Bible was the "Word of God" and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate in human flesh and that his death was a sacrifice meant to redeem us. In fact, I was seriously into creationism and apologetics when I was a teenager. So, it's not like I only have a vague notion of what Christians believe and why.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I suppose I too am an atheist of sorts because I do not believe allah exists. I do however believe that allah is a smokescreen that satan has thrown up to confuse us and make finding the true God much more difficult.

Well, I question how you could have possibly justified that belief, so it's probably different in principle from what I was trying to say (e.g., that some gnostic atheism is epistemically justified). I also find it interesting that you believe in a Satan figure but seem unsure about which God figure exists -- how did you arrive in that belief situation, if I'm reading you correctly?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Meow Mix,

I have given this some thought since I made my last post in this thread. Perhaps we can open another thread. I'm sure some others would like to weigh in.

This would be a great topic for the thread. I can give more background information so I can provide greater context for my statements if you find them confusing.

Perhaps so. But my depression bouts have specific triggers. My longing for meaning and romantic fulfillment have been my strongest triggers.

Okay, I'd like to engage in this thread with you. I don't necessarily find your statements confusing -- I mean, I get to some extent what you might have been feeling inasmuch as a man might "get" what it might be like to be pregnant. By that I mean, of course I don't really understand it first hand, but I can imagine what it might be like to have that perspective.

For instance, I can imagine being disapointed by the potential lack of an afterlife. I guess that is one thing that I've actually experienced. I don't think that makes life meaningless though -- I guess I don't understand why the potential lack of an afterlife should impact my happiness here.

This life is wonderful, at least for those of us lucky enough to live in free places and enough opportunities to avoid privation. There's just so much to see and experience even if there's so little time, but I find that an overwhelming joy: it just contributes to the sheer beauty and ineffable sanctity of the experience and the journey. I'm immeasurably lucky to have been born at all, so I can't imagine complaining that this brief sojourn through experiencing anything at all isn't enough or somehow lacks meaning if I fade to oblivion after it.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I only find gnostic atheism illogical because it rules out the possibility of the existence of a god. There is no way they can know that with certainty without infinite knowledge. Agnostic atheism is a perfectly logical belief I believe.

i can say the same thing about theism, right?
do you have infinite knowledge?
assuming you are a theist... of course.
 

andys

Andys
Matthew78, Hi.

I am sorry to hear that you abandoned atheism and Secular Humanism. The former rejects a life of lies, while the latter embraces the highest principles for a meaningful, moral life. Without either in your life, it is no wonder you feel confused and complacent.

You ask me a most challenging question:
Let me ask you something: if I became an atheist again, in the sense that I believed there were probably no divine beings, no soul/spirit/mind, just this physical, observable universe, that likely existed for eternity, then why should I bother to be moral? Why should I bother to care? What does it really matter? Why bother to attach meaning to my life?...why not just end it all? You're just cells. You're just a physical object, just chemical reactions, just a bunch of cells.

So, you have abandoned everything near and dear only to adopt solipsism. That certainly IS throwing the baby out with the bath water. The great philosopher, Rene Descartes, couldn't even justify that he existed. So good luck with justifying morality and the meaning of your life!

The meaning of life is an important matter which falls outside the inane topic of this tedious thread, but it certainly deserves a thread of its own. But let me say a few words in reply to your question, starting first with the matter regarding morality.

Morality is easy to justify, once you understand what it is. In a world with many people and a finite amount of resources and objects of desire, it is to be expected that stiff competition arises. However in a world with only one person to occupy it, there would be no morality. No competition would exist and right and wrong actions would have no application or meaning. But introduce one other person and suddenly morality is instantly necessary. Why? Because each human being has one absolute right—the right to live without any interference from others (providing he does not interfere with their same right. All other rights are deduced from this one fundamental human right. In a world of finite objects of interest to each person, competition and conflicts are inevitable. To resolve this problem, each human right implies a corresponding duty that all parties must respect. For example, your right to cross the street entails my duty not to interfere. If I did interfere, that action is deemed morally wrong. Now justice is called for. Justice attempts to maintain an equal balance between me respecting your rights and you respecting mine. Not respecting another's rights causes a tip in the scales of this ideal equilibrium. The degree to which the scales have tipped is a measure of the seriousness of the wrongdoing and serves to indicate the appropriate measure of punishment (an object of disinterest) that is required to reestablish the former state of equilibrium. That's morality 101 in a tiny nutshell.

My point is that you don't get the luxury of opting out of morality. You are duty bound to observe it. Morality serves to ensure that your human rights will be respected. It is in everyone's best interest. And that is ample justification for morality—not that it requires justification in the first place.

Turning to the question of finding meaning in your life, well, that is an entirely different kettle of fish. No philosophical argument can satisfy that need. Nonetheless, taking a defeatist attitude is itself self-defeating. It's kind of like saying to yourself, I see no reason to bother breathing, so I'll just not bother. Good luck. Your basic drive to breathe overrides your doomed disposition to not bother. Likewise, an inclination to not bother living (not to be confused with a serious suicidal disposition) is smoke and mirrors because try as you may, you can't snuff out caring. Loved ones and friends in your life have this nasty way of making things matter. It's futile to attempt to justify that such things matter, because they simply do, and for all the right reasons. Things that really matter to you are what makes your life so worthwhile, period. The fact that you are on this forum, sharing your personal thoughts with us strangers demonstrates the ingrained need we all have to belong and trust in one another. If you never find the answers you are looking for, your life obviously already has meaning for you, by virtue that you are concerned enough to want answers to these profound questions. Allan Watts summed it up in a lecture I once attended: "Why are you all in such a hurry to get to where you are going? Don't you know you're already there."

Your thoughts concerning the meaning of life and morality are the two areas of philosophy that interest me most. I invite further discussion.

[Note: If you are prepared to do a little research, I think I know who has the answers you seek regarding morality. He was the head of the Philosophy department at the university from which I graduated. It was my unforgettable privilege to have studied under him in his advanced Moral Philosophy class for one delightful year. Please Google "Peter Glassen" and consider reading some of his articles (listed) all of which are published in the world's leading philosophical journals (notably the British quarterly "Mind"). Unlike most other philosophers, Professor Glassen had a disdain for euphemism. He was a charming gentle old man who spoke and wrote in an almost child-like style that betrays his intellect.]
 
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Acim

Revelation all the time
Acim, I know from your intelligent posts that you aren't deliberately obtuse, so I'll just admit that I have no idea what you're trying to get to with this. What do you mean? Science is a method, it doesn't make sense to ask how to prove whether or not a method exists.

IMO, it does make sense. And by ducking the question, I am going with assumption that there is no way to prove its existence. If you believe otherwise, I am all ears. IMO, it doesn't actually exist in the way existence is used to 'prove God.' In the way that we might agree on method as existing, it would a) be based on an assumption that I would say is self evident and b) would be how one could realize God exists, if one was open to that.

Atheism is a rejection of a claim, why would it require it's own evidence?

To establish that it is a) not imaginary and b) not something other than manifestation of mind. I.E. atheism is subjective.

Science isn't a "thing" it's a process

Science is a noun. It is an activity / branch of knowledge that is believed to exist. I would argue it is imagination that 'makes it exist.' It may have collective imagination (or consensus) to back it up so it doesn't only as exist as, 'what one person believes' but it is not something found in our world. The individual steps that may make up method aren't objectively 'only science.' One can do observation and not being doing science. Do experimentation and not do science. Pick a step, any step, and it is not necessarily 'only science.'

Likewise, God is process (for many). Humans engage in activity / branch of knowledge to experience God. While not universally standardized, there are standards and practices that make up methodology. And just like meteorology and psychology are going to vary, in appearance, in method, there are denominations that will appear wildly different in method. At a discernible level, methodology is observable, growing awareness is understandable within the activity, ultimately increasing or confirming the branch of human knowledge. To go ahead and ask for proof of God in this endeavor makes as much sense (to me) ask asking for proof of science.

IOW, it is absurd.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I take issue with this.

The atheist you address is a rare bird. I've met very few who are sure there are no gods.
Most of us see it thus.
- We see no evidence of gods.

Which leads me to say, I see no evidence of science. Not only science, but I'll stick to that for now.

- The existence of gods plays no discernible role in our lives.

Depends, entirely, on how one attributes things. Again, I see the existence of science as playing no discernible role in our lives. To which someone might claim, "oh how are you communicating your message?" To which I might reply with engineering and note that this doesn't require science, nor in definition of engineer are you likely to see science. Likewise an engineer could (just as well) be deeply religious and claim all inspiration for their work comes from God, which would have as much (I would argue more) influence in their resulting work.

Bottom line on this point is we are going to likely have certain faction of humanity swearing forever and a day that god(s) play discernible role in their lives and a certain faction of humanity swearing forever and a day that science plays discernible role in their lives. Then another faction that might claim the two are not mutually exclusive, and yet another faction that insists they are. Ultimate point being we can poke holes in what constitutes discernible role. From how I understand science, it is playing no discernible role in my conscious intentions of typing up this post. For how I understand God, the discernible role (equaling Life) is without a doubt at work in the typing of this post.

- I can't verify that they exist or don't exist.

Depends on what you use to verify. How would I verify that science exists beyond my imagination?

- I don't believe in them.

Very interesting phrasing, but on this one you win. Congratulations.

- I further speculate that they don't exist. Tis a speculation with confidence is on par with my belief that the
new season of Dexter, The Simpsons & Justified will be as great as the earlier ones. There is no certainty or
truth. If you call this faith, then you are indeed using a novel & personal definition of the word "faith".

Weird that the dictionary definition is 'novel' to you.

I speculate that science doesn't exist except in imagination of humans, is therefore imaginary, therefore subjective, and is speculation with confidence on par with my belief that Schindler's List is, objectively speaking, best film of all time. By 'objectively speaking,' I do mean subjectively speaking, but while concerned with validity of great movies, I urge you to stay away from that little stipulation. Treat it as objective, until I say otherwise.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
IMO, it does make sense. And by ducking the question, I am going with assumption that there is no way to prove its existence. If you believe otherwise, I am all ears. IMO, it doesn't actually exist in the way existence is used to 'prove God.' In the way that we might agree on method as existing, it would a) be based on an assumption that I would say is self evident and b) would be how one could realize God exists, if one was open to that.



To establish that it is a) not imaginary and b) not something other than manifestation of mind. I.E. atheism is subjective.



Science is a noun. It is an activity / branch of knowledge that is believed to exist. I would argue it is imagination that 'makes it exist.' It may have collective imagination (or consensus) to back it up so it doesn't only as exist as, 'what one person believes' but it is not something found in our world. The individual steps that may make up method aren't objectively 'only science.' One can do observation and not being doing science. Do experimentation and not do science. Pick a step, any step, and it is not necessarily 'only science.'

Likewise, God is process (for many). Humans engage in activity / branch of knowledge to experience God. While not universally standardized, there are standards and practices that make up methodology. And just like meteorology and psychology are going to vary, in appearance, in method, there are denominations that will appear wildly different in method. At a discernible level, methodology is observable, growing awareness is understandable within the activity, ultimately increasing or confirming the branch of human knowledge. To go ahead and ask for proof of God in this endeavor makes as much sense (to me) ask asking for proof of science.

IOW, it is absurd.
No asking from proof of god is much different from asking for proof of science. Your on the internet and chatting which is proof of science and not proof of god. Your responding to a statement about you asking for proof of atheism which is a belief. Nice way to try and twist it but it doesn't fly. Proof that someone doesn't believe something is not rational? Personally I would like proof that theists really exist and aren't just using their imaginations.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
IMO, it does make sense. And by ducking the question, I am going with assumption that there is no way to prove its existence. If you believe otherwise, I am all ears. IMO, it doesn't actually exist in the way existence is used to 'prove God.' In the way that we might agree on method as existing, it would a) be based on an assumption that I would say is self evident and b) would be how one could realize God exists, if one was open to that.

I'm not dodging your question, just failing to understand it.

Tell you what: can you define for me what you're thinking about when you say "science?" I'll then answer the question.

Otherwise all I have to do is point out that science is a method, so to "prove it exists" all I have to do is point out that said method is possible (it is), and that people utilize said method (they do), and that therefore it exists. As a physics grad student myself, I've done my fair share of the scientific method in labs for various classes, for instance.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
To establish that it is a) not imaginary and b) not something other than manifestation of mind. I.E. atheism is subjective.

Still your question is non-sensical. Science is not an object, it's a process, much like philosophy is not an object.
 

smidjit

Member
Well, I question how you could have possibly justified that belief, so it's probably different in principle from what I was trying to say (e.g., that some gnostic atheism is epistemically justified). I also find it interesting that you believe in a Satan figure but seem unsure about which God figure exists -- how did you arrive in that belief situation, if I'm reading you correctly?

I believe in the Abrahamic covenant. There is one true God with two extensions or two manifestations of himself. There is the father, who is supreme, and the foundation of the other two extensions. The two extensions would be the free roaming Spirit, and the physical manifestation (Jesus Christ).
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
Matthew78, Hi.

I am sorry to hear that you abandoned atheism and Secular Humanism. The former rejects a life of lies, while the latter embraces the highest principles for a meaningful, moral life. Without either in your life, it is no wonder you feel confused and complacent.

Andys, thanks for responding :)

Abandoning Secular Humanism and atheism wasn't a happy decision for me. It was a sad decision. I will gladly start a post, inviting you, Meow Mix, and any others who want to join in and offer their two cents.

So, you have abandoned everything near and dear only to adopt solipsism. That certainly IS throwing the baby out with the bath water. The great philosopher, Rene Descartes, couldn't even justify that he existed. So good luck with justifying morality and the meaning of your life!

Solipsism? I've heard of that before, but, I'm not familiar with it. As for Decartes, I think you're confusing Decartes with David Hume. Decartes believed that the one necessary truth that couldn't be denied was that he existed and that he was a "thinking thing". I took a philosophy course at San Francisco State University with a Kant scholar and I remember being impressed with Decartes' meditation where he derived this necessary philosophical truth, "I think, therefore; I am". It was Hume who argued that we could not prove causation or an external world; it was a matter of custom or habit that we inferred causation. So, I'm not sure how Decartes felt he couldn't justify that he existed; on the contrary, his second meditation argues that his own existence, as a "thinking thing", was the only thing he was certain of.

The meaning of life is an important matter which falls outside the inane topic of this tedious thread, but it certainly deserves a thread of its own. But let me say a few words in reply to your question, starting first with the matter regarding morality.

If you don't mind, I won't respond to what you say in regards to morality being justified. I will gladly start another thread and respond to your paragraphs. Bear in mind that I will be playing devil's advocate for the sake of illustrating a point. :) I greatly look forward to a very stimulating discussion with you and Meow Mix.

Your thoughts concerning the meaning of life and morality are the two areas of philosophy that interest me most. I invite further discussion.

Awesome! I have a very strong interest in philosophy, particularly the philosophy of religion. In fact, I enrolled in San Francisco State University to pursue a M.A. in the philosophy of religion but quit after just two semesters. I look forward to further discussion!

[Note: If you are prepared to do a little research, I think I know who has the answers you seek regarding morality. He was the head of the Philosophy department at the university from which I graduated. It was my unforgettable privilege to have studied under him in his advanced Moral Philosophy class for one delightful year. Please Google "Peter Glassen" and consider reading some of his articles (listed) all of which are published in the world's leading philosophical journals (notably the British quarterly "Mind"). Unlike most other philosophers, Professor Glassen had a disdain for euphemism. He was a charming gentle old man who spoke and wrote in an almost child-like style that betrays his intellect.]

I have never heard of this fellow. I will be happy to Google his name and read any online articles that he has read. :)
 

andys

Andys
smidjit,
I will continue to further your education. Atheists, as I said in my last post, do NOT congregate. You attempted a retort by pasting a small list of atheist organizations. Evidently, you don't understand what "assembly" means. Here are some synonyms: amass, assemble, concentrate, gather, corral. None of these activities applies to any atheist organization. The small handful of atheist organizations that exist worldwide are not meeting places. Each atheist organization is either run from a home or a small office. The only time members ever get together is when a big convention is organized to feature guest speakers or to discuss a topic of interest. But these are special occasions, not to be confused with the frequent congregations which theists conduct on a regular, ongoing basis.

You persist in making uneducated, ill informed remarks like the following:
How can you know what science has yet to discover? How do you know that science will not one day be able to find God thru [sic] scientific method?
Science has never attempted to "find God" and it never will. "God" is a metaphysical construct which, by definition, falls outside the domain of the physical world, with which science is solely concerned. As for what might be discovered in the future, that is anybody's guess. So what?

...it is irrational to say that a god cannot possibly exist. That is the atheist position. People that are open to the idea of God, but do not necessarily believe, are called agnostics.
Firstly, atheism does NOT assert—and NEVER would assert—that "a god cannot possibly exist". There are two reasons why: 1) the idea of a "god" is not self-contradictory. Therefore it is not a "logical" impossibility. 2) As I stated above, what may be discovered in the future, is anybody's guess. It is not impossible that the Tooth Fairly exists. So I trust you will keep an open mind about her existence, as I keep an open mind about your god's existence.


Like the saying goes.... If it wasn't for God, you wouldn't have anything to not believe in.
Technically, I do not have any beliefs—not in the sense that you theists have beliefs. Theists notoriously believe in all sorts of things that are just plain goofy. That makes them irrational. I do not believe something to be true in the absence of good evidence. And there are millions of things I do not believe—your toy god is only one of them. I do not believe O. J. Simpson is innocent. I do not believe in creationism i.e. "intelligent design". I do not believe Republicans have any clue how to run your country. I do not believe there are many people who can think clearly. I do not believe anything I say will have the slightest effect on you.

... God reveals himself to the serious seeker. I am confident that my God exists for several reasons.
You may regard yourself as a serious seeker, but the only thing you are "seeking" is that which you seriously want to find. And you want it so badly you're willing to abandon what little rationality you may have had to begin with in order to have your toy god. Because once you have god, you have access to unconditional love from a kind of super hero who welcomes you to his world of eternal bliss in the next world. How disingenuous and self serving is your noble "quest"!

Why are you being intolerant? Isn't that why Hitler killed the Jews? Intolerance. I freely welcome atheists into my world without any animosity or desire to have them extinguished. Why do you have a not so secret desire to have the world free of people like me?
I am most happy to answer your question.

There is nothing necessarily wrong with intolerance. The notion of a "hate crime" is very misguided in many instances. You see, many, many things are truly intolerable: Pedophilia, racism, cruelty, injustice, genocide, dictatorships, terrorism, and so on. Hating a whole group of people is often perfectly warranted and fully justified. I fully support Jews who are intolerant of Nazis or Neo-Nazis.

So intolerance against an action, an ideology or certain group of like-minded people may not only be appropriate, but fully warranted and called for, providing the object of intolerance is truly unjust, immoral or poses a legitimate threat to the wellbeing of one or more innocent people.

You assert your valiant tolerance of atheism, but there is nothing intolerable about atheism. It merely rejects the beliefs associated with theism. But there is no violence, injustice or crime committed by atheism. So why would you not tolerate it?

Theism is a whole different story. It is notoriously responsible for (unspeakable) violence, injustice and disregard for human rights. Show me an organized religion with a god at its center, and I will show you a long history of human atrocities and injustices that persist to this day.

I find theism an abomination to all that is human and moral. Yet while I verbally condemn it and truly wish it were gone, I do not engage in acts of violence, as its history attests—religion being the mother of intolerance. Instead, I type words of protest, in keeping with my right to freedom of speech, and engage in open dialog with theists. If this is intolerance, then so be it.
 
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andys

Andys
I will gladly start a post, inviting you, Meow Mix, and any others who want to join in and offer their two cents.
Great! Let me know.

Solipsism? I've heard of that before, but, I'm not familiar with it. As for Decartes, I think you're confusing Decartes with David Hume. Decartes believed that the one necessary truth that couldn't be denied was that he existed and that he was a "thinking thing". I took a philosophy course at San Francisco State University with a Kant scholar and I remember being impressed with Decartes' meditation where he derived this necessary philosophical truth, "I think, therefore; I am". It was Hume who argued that we could not prove causation or an external world; it was a matter of custom or habit that we inferred causation. So, I'm not sure how Decartes felt he couldn't justify that he existed; on the contrary, his second meditation argues that his own existence, as a "thinking thing", was the only thing he was certain of.
No, it's Descartes who attempted to prove his existence, and failed. (I would throw myself under a bus if I were guilty of confusing David Hume—I love him—with Rene Descartes!) Descartes' syllogism was doomed to fail, since the "I" in his conclusion "I exist", is presupposed in his premise "I think". So his "Cogito" is a classic petitio principii, tsk, tsk. Hume was more clever than that!

I have a very strong interest in philosophy, particularly the philosophy of religion.
Just a precautionary note: As you probably are already aware, most Philosophy of Religion courses consist of an exploration of the various aspects of religion, its diversity (Eastern, Western, etc.), its sociology, history, and its unique "language". It's often taken by theology students who wish to broaden their understanding of world religions. To my mind, it's not, strictly speaking, a "pure" philosophy course. I hope you will also consider philosophy courses in areas such as Epistemology, Metaphysics, Moral Theory, Mind/Body, etc. (I'd avoid Existentialism since it is plain "B.S".) -Just my 2 cents' worth.

I have never heard of [Peter Glassen]. I will be happy to Google his name and read any online articles that he has [written]. :)
Frankly, I have read very little of his work, since I had him as my professor. It is my understanding that he never attempted to publish his Moral Theory. But I'm sure he alludes to it in his articles. Sadly, he took his own life a few years after I graduated. Everyone who met Professor Glassen couldn't help but love this humble genius.
 
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Acim

Revelation all the time
No asking from proof of god is much different from asking for proof of science. Your on the internet and chatting which is proof of science and not proof of god.

Proof of science how?

Your responding to a statement about you asking for proof of atheism which is a belief. Nice way to try and twist it but it doesn't fly. Proof that someone doesn't believe something is not rational? Personally I would like proof that theists really exist and aren't just using their imaginations.

I've seen variations of this thing you are saying you'd like, as is often a request. Prove that your theistic ideas are not just your imagination. And yet, is what I'm getting at on this tangent. All these ideas (science, theism, atheism, whatever) are imagination. There is no proof of them in physical existence. Then again there is not objective proof of physical world in shared existence either.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Proof of science how?
Proof that science shows results and proves that it is real knowledge as opposed to lies.

I've seen variations of this thing you are saying you'd like, as is often a request. Prove that your theistic ideas are not just your imagination. And yet, is what I'm getting at on this tangent. All these ideas (science, theism, atheism, whatever) are imagination. There is no proof of them in physical existence. Then again there is not objective proof of physical world in shared existence either.
Running away from the real knowledge we are gaining doesn't help your cause. If it is all imagination there is no reason to discuss anything or believe anything. I call god imagination and you go "oh yeah well reality is imagination", it is childish. Shared existence makes it objective. If it were a shared dream it would be objective. That is what objective means, not subjective. Subjective means only in our imagination and not shared by anyone because they can't peer into our mind, they have to see something for proof, something everyone passing by would see, which would make it objective.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I'm not dodging your question, just failing to understand it.

Tell you what: can you define for me what you're thinking about when you say "science?" I'll then answer the question.

Otherwise all I have to do is point out that science is a method, so to "prove it exists" all I have to do is point out that said method is possible (it is), and that people utilize said method (they do), and that therefore it exists. As a physics grad student myself, I've done my fair share of the scientific method in labs for various classes, for instance.

Exists within context that is this tangent is that there is physical proof that only points to God as explanation for that evidence. What stands out, often, to me is the 'only' part, for if one says, God is cause / creator of whatever physical process, there are many in room who say that isn't proof of God, for we if we can find another explanation, another way to describe phenomenon in rational way, then it is reasonable to conclude this phenomenon isn't sufficient proof for God.

Okay, so hopefully within this context, that satisfies what exists means.

I would think, though anticipate some debate, that atheism (like theism) wouldn't fit within this version of existence, as both are essentially imagined (beliefs). To whatever degree there is disagreement on this, I'm up for discussing it, especially since it has much to do with this thread.

Science is where I would maintain disagreement, but since it is perceived as method more than 'mere belief' the argument could be a lot more lengthy, while I believe we'd essentially be arguing fundamentals primarily and exhaustively.

To me, science is fundamentally, an intellectual activity consciously designed to enhance human awareness through a systematic process. That is perhaps not dictionary definition even though I'm somewhat borrowing from dictionary. And like all definitions, there is key words that sum up the term in sound bite form. For science, I think that is "intellectual activity." This doesn't distinguish it from other activities that are of the mind, but at a point after definition comes a whole lot of elaboration. IMO, endless elaboration. The very process of science from first time term was coined (in my understanding around 2500 years ago) has constantly been updating "what is science." Yet fundamentally it has not changed from being 'intellectual activity' into something else.

Now, in definition I have above, there is the words "systematic process" and that is where scientific method would fit in. I think many think without method there is no science. I would generally not disagree, though I think that is rigid, or too rigid. A whole lot of things are considered scientific without necessarily having to always apply method. A (recent) example would be:

Your on the internet and chatting which is proof of science

Cause without even seeing response to what I said in reply to this post, I anticipate the response to be along lines of "computer science brought you internet and is proof that science (in general) exists)." Which also coincides with what you said when you said:

people utilize said method (they do)

And this is where I express disagreement based on how I, in this post, referenced "exists." For if you do said method, but I can explain or describe those physical activities in another (rational) way which explains them as not only pertaining to science, then it is reasonable to conclude this phenomenon (physical correlation(s)) isn't sufficient proof for science.

IOW, if one claims to be observing / studying phenomenon in a lab and I describe this as similar to how artists may review and scrutinize and object before depicting it, I will have provided alternate explanation, or depiction, for that activity. Such that it isn't 'only science' that the person is up to. So, then we may say, 'method is a whole process consisting of several steps.' But if at any point of the process I can explain it to be something other than only scientific method, it is plausible whole process is not science, even if practitioner wishes to claim otherwise. They are welcome to that opinion, but it would obviously be bias at work, rather than allowing for data that has clearly shown the phenomenon could be explained / described different (about what observer is plausibly up to).

And another aspect of this is where we allow crafts to be called science. Thus essentially saying nearly all intellectual activity where principles of engineering are anywhere on the radar, gets to be called science or result of scientific method. This is where science gets to argue what it is up to overlaps and perhaps even envelops what art is up to. And to what degree this is accurate is matter of ongoing debate. I think there are several who would say all crafts of any kind do not belong in domain of science. While others say, clearly some do.

And somewhere near the bottom, as was mentioned near the top, we are talking about an intellectual activity which is in the mind. It is imagined, and is not found in the physical world. To the degree it is found, it is only found in human activities. And where the mindful activity becomes practicing of science, it is no different, I would say when mindful activity of say meditation becomes practicing spirituality. Neither is anything more than mental construct of human imagination, but one gets to be connected to 'facts' via bias that is under examined while the other, if ever remotely connected with fact, is scrutinized and deemed only based on feelings and personal experience regardless of the umpteen million people who engage in same activity and find very similar results.

Science as intellectual activity starts in human mind and ends there. Anything perceived as outside of human mind and also deemed scientific is delusion. For the same human mind is capable of presenting alternate explanation(s) of what scientist(s), aka humans, are up to when (allegedly) engaged in methodology. Research and experimentation with physical phenomenon is nothing more than humans interacting with aspects of their environment, while application and production of objects from research and experiments are nothing more than humans crafting physical phenomenon based on human imagination.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Proof that science shows results and proves that it is real knowledge as opposed to lies.

Thanks for the biased interpretation. Now explain how this is result of science.


Running away from the real knowledge we are gaining doesn't help your cause. If it is all imagination there is no reason to discuss anything or believe anything.

Why do you believe this?

I call god imagination and you go "oh yeah well reality is imagination", it is childish.

I haven't said this, and not sure I appreciate the implication that I'm childish.

Shared existence makes it objective.

We disagree on this being what makes for objective. Independent of bias is how I understand it. Lots of Muslims share existence and knowledge of things, therefore Islam is objective in your sound bite logic.

If it were a shared dream it would be objective.

How would we know it is a shared dream? From within the dream, how would I know that the other persons appearing in the dream are sharing it in way that would make them definitively independent of 'me?'

That is what objective means, not subjective. Subjective means only in our imagination and not shared by anyone because they can't peer into our mind, they have to see something for proof, something everyone passing by would see, which would make it objective.

Everything you are describing here as objective can easily occur, without a doubt, in a night dream. The only basis we have for saying that is subjective is that we are not in that world, and we are convinced that mind is making that up. But from within the context, it is as objective as what you are claiming here. There would be no discernible way to tell the difference.
 
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