The Credentials of Christ as the Promised Seed

[javajo]

You're already coming close to proselytizing.

The problem with the car accident analogy is that you still have some basics to go on. You don't have something so vastly different, such as the Gospels disagreeing on which day Jesus died. That is vastly different, and really has nothing to do with perspective.

I am not trying to proselytize, I am trying to state my beliefs and that is all. I bet one could find very good explanations as to the question of the day Jesus died, the main point, I believe is that he died was buried and rose again according to scripture. But that is just my own personal beliefs and I have enjoyed sharing them. I think I will go now, I do not want to break any of the forums rules and I have gone to great pains to emphasize that this is just what I believe, take it or leave it.

 

[Otherright]

I think that despite seeming contradictions which theologians have written a lot of books that help people understand better, they have harmony as well. They are different accounts written by different men each with their own slant and emphasis on different aspects. Its like if we witnessed that or even a car accident, everyone is going to give different accounts of what happened but when its all analyzed a clear picture should emerge. I don't really want to argue about this, I feel as if I'd be trying to convince someone to believe as I do and that would be like proselytizing. Lol, I don't know why I put it in debate, because I don't like to debate but I do like to share. I believe that whether people believe the Bible or not they will find good reasons to believe or not to believe. For me it works wonderfully because I believe I am definitely a hopeless sinner in need of a savior and I find no other remedy for my sin but that Christ died for me. So for me personally, I cast all my hope on him and him alone and it works for me. But that's just me.

Ahh... the ol' stand by, the car accident analogy. I knew it was coming when I replied. Clearly, you have learned how to defend the faith well.

There are some problems with your car accident. First, one of the four folks talking about the accident, didn't see the accident.

Second, it is in no way like an accident, an accident is quick, jars the memory through panic response, and is a singular event. We are talking about people who saw many events over, at least, a few years.

If you study this stuff at an academic level, at some point you going to be required to do a side-by-side reading of the gospels. You will see immense problems when you do this.
If you choose, you can combine all the Gospels together to make them harmonize, but then, you aren't telling Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's, or John's story, you are telling your own, the Gospel According to Javajo.

Here are some things you should consider:
Messiah does not mean Son of God, it never has, it never will. Jesus clearly isn't the messiah.

Jesus didn't perform miracles, at least not historically. There is no account of it outside of the Gospels, not even within the NT.

For all the tens of thousands of people who saw these events, not a single person leaves us a reference outside of four stories written decades after the fact.

 

[javajo]

Ahh... the ol' stand by, the car accident analogy. I knew it was coming when I replied. Clearly, you have learned how to defend the faith well.

There are some problems with your car accident. First, one of the four folks talking about the accident, didn't see the accident.

Second, it is in no way like an accident, an accident is quick, jars the memory through panic response, and is a singular event. We are talking about people who saw many events over, at least, a few years.

If you study this stuff at an academic level, at some point you going to be required to do a side-by-side reading of the gospels. You will see immense problems when you do this.
If you choose, you can combine all the Gospels together to make them harmonize, but then, you aren't telling Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's, or John's story, you are telling your own, the Gospel According to Javajo.

Here are some things you should consider:
Messiah does not mean Son of God, it never has, it never will. Jesus clearly isn't the messiah.

Jesus didn't perform miracles, at least not historically. There is no account of it outside of the Gospels, not even within the NT.

For all the tens of thousands of people who saw these events, not a single person leaves us a reference outside of four stories written decades after the fact.

I believe and have no problems with the Gospel accounts, personally, I understand where others may have concerns and I understand that. Jesus [Yeshua, meaning 'Savior'], Christ [Messiah, meaning 'Anointed One']. The Gospels say Jesus performed miracles, Peter in Acts 2 said he performed miracles that they all saw. Peter also said they were eyewitnesses of his majesty when he was transfigured on the mount and also heard God's voice confirming Jesus was his Son, which I believe was all pretty miraculous. When Peter said Jesus was the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the Living God, Jesus said men did not show him that but that God the Father did. Again, I just believe the Bible I'm not asking anyone to believe as I do.

 

[Otherright]

I believe and have no problems with the Gospel accounts, personally, I understand where others may have concerns and I understand that. Jesus [Yeshua, meaning 'Savior'], Christ [Messiah, meaning 'Anointed One']. The Gospels say Jesus performed miracles, Peter in Acts 2 said he performed miracles that they all saw. Peter also said they were eyewitnesses of his majesty when he was transfigured on the mount and also heard God's voice confirming Jesus was his Son, which I believe was all pretty miraculous. When Peter said Jesus was the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the Living God, Jesus said men did not show him that but that God the Father did. Again, I just believe the Bible I'm not asking anyone to believe as I do.

Messiah does not mean son of God. The messiah, was to, among other things, reunify the 12 tribes and establish Israel as a nation. He did none of those things.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I agree with this however it is based on the interpretation of Jesus who seemed familiar with Jewish texts. Jesus obviously disageed with the Pharisees on many issues.

I disagree. It's clear that whomever wrote the "new testament" was either painfully ignorant regarding Jewish scripture, or fully expected the reader to be.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Most Christians view Isaiah 53 as prophesying the suffering and death of the Messiah, while many Jews see the "suffering servant" as referring to the course that the Jewish people as a whole have to walk. But couldn't both be true?

No. Both couldn't be true. It's very a much a "one or the other" proposition.

If a prophesy really comes from God it should have enough depth of meaning that people of different ages and situations can draw valid meaning from it.

In other words, it should be vague enough to mean whatever anybody wants it to mean? No. If that were the case, it would be meaningless. Surely you don't believe God's prophecy is meaningless....

ETA: Come to think of it, I don't know what you believe. I should reword myself. Surely you don't expect that people who believe that there is significance to God's prophecies would believe that God's prophecies are meaningless.

 

[Poisonshady313]

He was the stone the builders rejected. Of course the Jews rejected him as prophecy said. He is in David lineage and he did no sin. He will come again as a righteous judge and king.

I'm glad that this thread isn't in a DIR, because I'm free to say that everything contained in this quote of yours is just wrong.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Could you explain in more detail?

There are so many errors of Jewish law, philosophy, prophecy, etc... I'm not sure if it can be chalked up to ignorance or malice, or a combination thereof. People who learn, study, and live by the Torah and study the prophets and the other writings (Psalms, proverbs, etc) can easily spot something that's wrong. And there is so much wrong even just within Matthew 1.

One example... Jesus cursing the fruit tree and causing it to die.

First, a little background:

In Jewish law, there are various examples of laws which are written of in a specific context, but is applied more widely. One such example:

"If a man shall have committed a sin whose judgment is death, he shall be put to death, and you shall hang him on a gallows. His body shall not remain on the gallows, rather you shall surely bury him on that day, for a hanging person is a curse of God, and you shall not contaminate your Land, which the Lord, your God, gives you as an inheritance." (Deut 21:22-23)

This passage is the basis for the prohibition of letting a corpse remain unburied before the day he or she died is through. The idea is that if it is a disgrace to let the hanging body of even a guilty criminal who deserved the death penalty to remain unburied in a timely fashion, it is so much more disgraceful to let the dead body of a good person remain unburied.

Which is why Jewish funerals happen so immediately after a person dies. Sometimes burial is delayed for one or two days to allow family from far away to attend... and funerals never occur on the sabbath, though in Jerusalem there is never a delay (I don't know if that includes burials on the sabbath or not.)

The basic principle I'm getting at is that if a certain measure of dignity is required to the sort of person who absolutely doesn't deserve it, there is no question that this measure of dignity must be afforded to good people.

Back to the tree.

"When you besiege a city for many days to wage war against it to seize it, do not destroy its trees by swinging an axe against them, for from it you will eat, and you shall not cut it down; is the tree of the field a man that it should enter the siege before you? Only a tree that you know is not a food tree, it you may destroy and cut down, and build a bulwark against the city that makes war with you, until it is conquered." (Deut 20:19-20)

The prohibition against destroying fruit trees.

Using the principle I mentioned before, if it is wrong to destroy the fruit tree of your enemy, it is that much more wrong to destroy a fruit tree that belongs to nobody.

And Jesus comes along and destroys a fruit tree because it wasn't bearing fruit WHEN IT WAS NOT THE SEASON FOR FRUIT.

It is said that this was done to teach a lesson about people and their "fruit", that if they do not act as Jesus instructs them, they'll perish just like the tree.

Whether this actually happened, or it is a product of the author's imagination, it can only be figured that:

Jesus or the author is painfully ignorant of the law concerning fruit trees.

or

Jesus was well aware and committed a sin in order to teach a lesson... which would put a damper on the Christian claim that Jesus was sinless.

or

The author was well aware and wrote it anyway, figuring the reader wouldn't know any better.

This is just one out of a great many examples.

 

[Desert Snake]

But the examples you've given only apply to traditional non-Christian Judaism,
which in many respects is made null and void in the NT. There is so much
"new" instruction given by Jesus that it's literally pointless to hold jesus
to these laws. I've seen many arguments where people try to argue that
Jesus "upheld" the 'law' but this is laughable when considering His own
teachings, the conversion of gentiles to Christianity later, etc.

 

[Poisonshady313]

But the examples you've given only apply to traditional non-Christian Judaism,
which in many respects is made null and void in the NT. There is so much
"new" instruction given by Jesus that it's literally pointless to hold jesus
to these laws.

That's part of what I was talking about when I said:

It's clear that whomever wrote the "new testament" was either painfully ignorant regarding Jewish scripture, or fully expected the reader to be.

You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor shall you subtract from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord, your God, that I command you. Deut 4:2

 

[Desert Snake]

That's part of what I was talking about when I said:



You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor shall you subtract from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord, your God, that I command you. Deut 4:2

Yeah, I don't think this argument can be applied to Christianity
in the way it has. I agree with that point.

 

[James Humphreys]

No. Both couldn't be true. It's very a much a "one or the other" proposition.

I don't agree. The suffering servant reveals that those who are righteous, whether an individual, a group or a nation, often have to go through a course of suffering, in which the injustices they suffer in some way pay for sins of others. That could apply to the Jewish people (at times), to various prophets and I believe to Jesus as well.

But just to set the record straight, I do believe Jesus was the awaited Messiah, but I don't believe his original destiny was to be crucified. I believe the prophecies, such as Isaiah 9, in which the Messiah is welcomed and lifted up as the king of a righteous kingdom, should have been fulfilled 2000 years ago. After all, Jesus himself said "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John (the Baptist)" (Mt.11:13), meaning that he expected all the OT, including the fulfillment of the kingdom, to be realized in his time. That's why his first public recorded words were "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

What I would say, is that the OT contains dual prophecies concerning the Messiah 1)those such as Isaiah 9, the glorious Messiah, and 2)those such as Isaiah 53, which foreshadow the possibility of a suffering Messiah. They are both possible, but only one will become a reality, depending on whether or not the Messiah is recognized or not. Most Christians think that Isaiah 9 is the prophecy of Christ's 2nd Coming, but I don't think that was originally the case(see Mt.11:13).

In other words, it should be vague enough to mean whatever anybody wants it to mean? No. If that were the case, it would be meaningless. Surely you don't believe God's prophecy is meaningless....

ETA: Come to think of it, I don't know what you believe. I should reword myself. Surely you don't expect that people who believe that there is significance to God's prophecies would believe that God's prophecies are meaningless.

No, I don't. Prophecy can't be bent to mean anything and everything that somebody desires. Prophecy from God always has clear meaning, but that doesn't signify the meaning is always just one dimensional, or applies to just one time period in history.

 

[fallingblood]

But the examples you've given only apply to traditional non-Christian Judaism,
which in many respects is made null and void in the NT. There is so much
"new" instruction given by Jesus that it's literally pointless to hold jesus
to these laws. I've seen many arguments where people try to argue that
Jesus "upheld" the 'law' but this is laughable when considering His own
teachings, the conversion of gentiles to Christianity later, etc.

Jesus wasn't a Christian. Christianity did not exist until decades later. The NT wasn't written (and finished) until decades later. The Gospels themselves were not produced until at least three decades later (and that is only talking about an early dating for Mark).

My point, even if the NT voids aspects of Judaism, it wouldn't matter during the time of Jesus as the NT did not exist. The books that make up the NT did not exist anytime around the life of Jesus. And Christianity did not exist.

Jesus was a Jew. One thing should be mentioned, about this. There was no traditional Judaism at that time. Judaism was diverse. So diverse, scholars have began calling it Judaisms, as in multiple forms of Judaism. Jesus was not a radical in anyway, but then again, there was no traditional Judaism. Jesus was a Jew though. He preached a message for Jews. It was a Jewish message. And he even states, that one should follow the Law to the T, and more so, that his followers should not preach to anyone but Jews. It was a thoroughly Jewish message for Jews.

So yes, one should hold Jesus to those laws as Jesus himself said that his followers should follow those laws, he never said that those laws were void, and he was a Jew.

 

[fallingblood]

No, I don't. Prophecy can't be bent to mean anything and everything that somebody desires. Prophecy from God always has clear meaning, but that doesn't signify the meaning is always just one dimensional, or applies to just one time period in history.

So, basically, one can interpret a prophecy anyway they feel, as long as they believe God is directing them?

If a prophecy has a clear meaning, then is it not silly to assume that there is also a hidden meaning? One that no one during the time that the prophecy was written, or hundreds of years later knew about? Because that is what you are suggesting.

 

[Poisonshady313]

No, I don't. Prophecy can't be bent to mean anything and everything that somebody desires. Prophecy from God always has clear meaning, but that doesn't signify the meaning is always just one dimensional, or applies to just one time period in history.

A prophecy means what it means.

If the prophecy is not a messianic prophecy, you can't just decide that it is a messianic prophecy because you think it makes you look clever.

That sort of thing is a lot like shooting an arrow into a blank target, drawing a bullseye around the arrow, and claiming that you hit the bullseye. It's lazy and dishonest

 

[James Humphreys]

So, basically, one can interpret a prophecy anyway they feel, as long as they believe God is directing them?

If a prophecy has a clear meaning, then is it not silly to assume that there is also a hidden meaning? One that no one during the time that the prophecy was written, or hundreds of years later knew about? Because that is what you are suggesting.

Many people do of course interpret prophecy according to their whim, but I'm not advocating that at all. By prophecy having a clear meaning, I'm saying that the meaning is clear to God. But sometimes, yes, the meaning is not necessarily clear to those who in live in the time it was given, or even hundreds of years later. Even the prophet who received the prophecy may not understand it fully.

Some prophecies are of course easily understandable to those receiving them. For example, God warns Lot of the impending destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which comes to pass. But some prophecies speak of fantastic beasts and use language that seems to be highly symbolic. I don't want to get stuck on Isaiah 53, but here the identity of the person, the suffering servant of God, is not so immediately clear. Is it a metaphor for the Jewish nation? Is he an unidentified person who is yet to appear? Or perhaps is it an archetype of the suffering course, and the redemptive value it has, that any righteous person or group may have to go through?

 

[James Humphreys]

A prophecy means what it means.

If the prophecy is not a messianic prophecy, you can't just decide that it is a messianic prophecy because you think it makes you look clever.

That sort of thing is a lot like shooting an arrow into a blank target, drawing a bullseye around the arrow, and claiming that you hit the bullseye. It's lazy and dishonest

First line:agreed, but do we know what it means, are we correct in our interpretation?
Second line:agreed, God knows what prophecies are messianic and which are not. But do we always know? If the coming of the Messiah is the most important event in human history for God, then it might be reasonable that a lot of prophecy, either directly or indirectly, relates to that event, even if that meaning is not so immediately obvious.

 

[javajo]

I believe as the NT says that blindness in part has come to the Jewish People so that salvation may come to the Gentiles, too. Scripture says they will speak with stammering lips that hearing they may not hear and seeing they may not see. I believe many good Jewish people are looking for the Messiah and that like those in Jesus' day, they are looking for him to rule and reign, which he will. I believe people miss the many prophecies he fulfilled the first time when he came to bare our sins. He will rule and reign when he comes again as he promised. Here are some prophecies about Jesus. Each prophecy has several verses which show exactly where they come from. For the verses (too many to put in post) go to the link: Old Testament prophecies of Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is eternal in His existence.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ would be anointed with the Holy Spirit of God.
Jesus Christ's name is the same as the Tetragrammaton (YHWH).
Jesus Christ would be The King.
Jesus Christ would be a Prophet.
Jesus Christ would be a Priest.
Jesus Christ, "the Anointed One, the ruler," would come the first time as "the Anointed One" after "sixty-two 'sevens.'
Jesus Christ would come the second time as "the Anointed One, the ruler," after "seven 'sevens.'"
Jesus Christ would die "sixty two 'sevens'" after the first order to rebuild Jerusalem.
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of the woman" that would crush the serpent’s head.
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of Abraham."
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of Isaac."
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of Jacob."
Jesus Christ would be of the tribe of Judah.
Jesus Christ would come from David's family and be heir to David's throne.
"Elijah" would come immediately prior to the coming of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ would be born in Bethlehem.
Jesus Christ would be born of a virgin and called Immanuel.
Jesus Christ would proclaim a Jubilee.
Bethlehem's children would be killed at Jesus Christ's Coming.
Jesus Christ would live in Egypt.
Jesus Christ would live in Galilee.
Jesus Christ would bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives and announce the acceptable year of the Lord.
Jesus Christ would heal people of disease and sickness.
Jesus Christ would teach in parables.
Jesus Christ would be tender and compassionate.
Jesus Christ would be meek and humble.
Jesus Christ would be sinless and without guile.
Jesus Christ would bear the reproaches that were due to others.
Jesus Christ would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey.
Jesus Christ would enter the Temple with authority.
Jesus Christ would be hated without reason.
Jesus Christ would be rejected by the Jewish people.
Jesus Christ would be rejected by the Jewish leadership.
Jesus Christ would be plotted against by Jewish people and the Gentiles together.
Jesus Christ would be betrayed by a friend.
Jesus Christ would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Jesus Christ would have the price for His life given to buy a potters field.
Jesus Christ would be forsaken by His flock.
Jesus Christ the shepherd would be struck.
Jesus Christ would be spat on.
Jesus Christ would be mocked.
Jesus Christ would be beaten.
Jesus Christ would be executed by Crucifixion, having His hands and feet pierced.
Jesus Christ would be thirsty during His Crucifixion.
Jesus Christ would be given vinegar and gall.
Jesus Christ the Lamb, would not have a broken bone.
Jesus Christ would die with transgressors.
Jesus Christ's dying words were prophesied.
Jesus Christ realized that His arrest and Crucifixion was fulfilling prophesy.
Jesus Christ's death would atone for the sins of mankind.
They would cast lots for Jesus Christ's garments.
Jesus Christ would be buried by a rich man.
Jesus Christ would rise from the dead on the third day.
Jesus Christ would ascend to the right hand of God.
Jesus Christ would exercise His Priestly Office in Heaven.
Jesus Christ would be the cornerstone of God’s Messianic Community.
Jesus Christ would be sought after by Gentiles.
Jesus Christ would be accepted by the Gentiles.

 

[Otherright]

I believe as the NT says that blindness in part has come to the Jewish People so that salvation may come to the Gentiles, too. Scripture says they will speak with stammering lips that hearing they may not hear and seeing they may not see. I believe many good Jewish people are looking for the Messiah and that like those in Jesus' day, they are looking for him to rule and reign, which he will. I believe people miss the many prophecies he fulfilled the first time when he came to bare our sins. He will rule and reign when he comes again as he promised. Here are some prophecies about Jesus. Each prophecy has several verses which show exactly where they come from. For the verses (too many to put in post) go to the link: Old Testament prophecies of Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is eternal in His existence.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ would be anointed with the Holy Spirit of God.
Jesus Christ's name is the same as the Tetragrammaton (YHWH).
Jesus Christ would be The King.
Jesus Christ would be a Prophet.
Jesus Christ would be a Priest.
Jesus Christ, "the Anointed One, the ruler," would come the first time as "the Anointed One" after "sixty-two 'sevens.'
Jesus Christ would come the second time as "the Anointed One, the ruler," after "seven 'sevens.'"
Jesus Christ would die "sixty two 'sevens'" after the first order to rebuild Jerusalem.
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of the woman" that would crush the serpent’s head.
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of Abraham."
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of Isaac."
Jesus Christ would be the "seed of Jacob."
Jesus Christ would be of the tribe of Judah.
Jesus Christ would come from David's family and be heir to David's throne.
"Elijah" would come immediately prior to the coming of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ would be born in Bethlehem.
Jesus Christ would be born of a virgin and called Immanuel.
Jesus Christ would proclaim a Jubilee.
Bethlehem's children would be killed at Jesus Christ's Coming.
Jesus Christ would live in Egypt.
Jesus Christ would live in Galilee.
Jesus Christ would bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives and announce the acceptable year of the Lord.
Jesus Christ would heal people of disease and sickness.
Jesus Christ would teach in parables.
Jesus Christ would be tender and compassionate.
Jesus Christ would be meek and humble.
Jesus Christ would be sinless and without guile.
Jesus Christ would bear the reproaches that were due to others.
Jesus Christ would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey.
Jesus Christ would enter the Temple with authority.
Jesus Christ would be hated without reason.
Jesus Christ would be rejected by the Jewish people.
Jesus Christ would be rejected by the Jewish leadership.
Jesus Christ would be plotted against by Jewish people and the Gentiles together.
Jesus Christ would be betrayed by a friend.
Jesus Christ would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Jesus Christ would have the price for His life given to buy a potters field.
Jesus Christ would be forsaken by His flock.
Jesus Christ the shepherd would be struck.
Jesus Christ would be spat on.
Jesus Christ would be mocked.
Jesus Christ would be beaten.
Jesus Christ would be executed by Crucifixion, having His hands and feet pierced.
Jesus Christ would be thirsty during His Crucifixion.
Jesus Christ would be given vinegar and gall.
Jesus Christ the Lamb, would not have a broken bone.
Jesus Christ would die with transgressors.
Jesus Christ's dying words were prophesied.
Jesus Christ realized that His arrest and Crucifixion was fulfilling prophesy.
Jesus Christ's death would atone for the sins of mankind.
They would cast lots for Jesus Christ's garments.
Jesus Christ would be buried by a rich man.
Jesus Christ would rise from the dead on the third day.
Jesus Christ would ascend to the right hand of God.
Jesus Christ would exercise His Priestly Office in Heaven.
Jesus Christ would be the cornerstone of God’s Messianic Community.
Jesus Christ would be sought after by Gentiles.
Jesus Christ would be accepted by the Gentiles.

Ever notice how prophecy is always dead on in hindsight.

 

[fallingblood]

Jesus Christ is eternal in His existence.

The vast majority of those were never prophecies about the Messiah. And really, this has all been explained before earlier on in this thread. I don't see why you continue to try to convince us of your stance when you are unwilling to actually debate the matter anyway. That is basically just preaching at us.

Now, if you want to actually discuss this more, I would be happy; however, if you just want to keep preaching, then this really isn't the place to do it.