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Atheism: A belief?

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
So you think that, in order for someone to answer "no" to the question "do you believe in god?" or "do you hold the belief that god exists?", he/she would have to know what god was first?
No, but those are different questions. I think that there are a lot of different scenarios that that interchange could apply to.

In order for someone to be amoral, would they have to know what morality means?
No, but the semantics of the adjective "amoral" is very different from that of the noun "atheist". For one thing, despite the superficial similarity between the prefixes in the two words, they are actually different prefixes from the perspective of English grammar. The prefix in "amoral" is a productive prefix that attaches to adjective stems like "moral". The prefix in "atheist" is a fossilized prefix that does not attach productively to nouns. I would advise against trying to support an argument about semantics that is based on a linguistic analysis. Just look at how people use the words.

I care about the issue, I just don't like the way the thread has developed into something that's far from constructive.
I don't like it when people attack each other either, but that is to be expected. Not all of the debate has been unconstructive. In the long run, these kinds of arguments stimulate people to think more deeply about the issues in the future, even if the debate itself seems to have no satisfactory resolution. In his early years, Noam Chomsky used to drive his students crazy. They discovered some amazing things in trying to prove him wrong, but I have been told that there was a lot of swearing and yelling in the classrooms at MIT. ;)
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
Atheism as a "belief" is a contradiction of terms; it is just one particular aspect of disbelief. Secular Humanism or Materialism would be more attributed as being a belief of sought because they often incorporate a whole spectrum of beliefs even if they often disagree with each other on many points. Some atheists may believe in things which are usually totally at odds with secular humanism for instance such as a belief in lesser spirits such as ghosts or many other forms of paranormal phenomena but still describe themselves as atheists.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Atheism as a "belief" is a contradiction of terms; it is just one particular aspect of disbelief.
What does it mean to 'disbelieve' something? You've been faced with a claim or statement, or even a circumstance (aspects of the same thing), and some toggle inside has flicked to go, "No, that can't be so" or "No, that's not right."

'Belief' is the same toggle, in the raised position.
 

Commoner

Headache
No, but those are different questions. I think that there are a lot of different scenarios that that interchange could apply to.

No, but the semantics of the adjective "amoral" is very different from that of the noun "atheist". For one thing, despite the superficial similarity between the prefixes in the two words, they are actually different prefixes from the perspective of English grammar. The prefix in "amoral" is a productive prefix that attaches to adjective stems like "moral". The prefix in "atheist" is a fossilized prefix that does not attach productively to nouns. I would advise against trying to support an argument about semantics that is based on a linguistic analysis. Just look at how people use the words.

I don't necesarrily disagree with you regarding the definition, but I really don't understand how you could argue that the "a" in "atheist" is not a productive prefix. I mean, that seems more like a convenient conclusion than an argument, I've certainly not seen anything to support that. If you want me to look at how people use words in general, I think you'd be surprised at how many people use immoral and amoral to mean the same thing, for instance. I'm not sure that's the best criteria, not for every (type of) word anyway.

The analogy with amoral wasn't really based on linguistics - I wouldn't know where to start. What I'm wondering about is if this whole "baby" business is even a proper consideration. I mean, I have a feeling that, regardless of whether we're talking about atheism or any other kind of label like "amoral", the question of what those labels apply to is of a different category. I'm not sure that arguing that, since it would mean that babies (for instance) are atheists (and that that might not be consistent with "common usage"), atheism should not be defined as simply "lack of belief". I get a distinct taste of straw in my mouth when I'm confronted with anything resembling this kind of argument. "Common usage" of the word "atheist" as I see it is far from anything specific enough as to include or exclude "just lack of belief in god", so if we're going by common usage, quite frankly I think this is pretty unresolvable. I don't know... :rolleyes:

I don't like it when people attack each other either, but that is to be expected. Not all of the debate has been unconstructive. In the long run, these kinds of arguments stimulate people to think more deeply about the issues in the future, even if the debate itself seems to have no satisfactory resolution. In his early years, Noam Chomsky used to drive his students crazy. They discovered some amazing things in trying to prove him wrong, but I have been told that there was a lot of swearing and yelling in the classrooms at MIT. ;)

I'm not sure this thread has quite the same potential though... :rolleyes:
 
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Commoner

Headache
What does it mean to 'disbelieve' something? You've been faced with a claim or statement, or even a circumstance (aspects of the same thing), and some toggle inside has flicked to go, "No, that can't be so" or "No, that's not right."

'Belief' is the same toggle, in the raised position.

But the thing that's "not right" can be "I have this belief", not always "this is true". You don't have to "disbelieve" something in order not to believe it, do you?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
But the thing that's "not right" can be "I have this belief", not always "this is true". You don't have to "disbelieve" something in order not to believe it, do you?
Truth in belief is a given --it's the thing that we invest in when we declare 'belief'.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I don't necesarrily disagree with you regarding the definition, but I really don't understand how you could argue that the "a" in "atheist" is not a productive prefix. I mean, that seems more like a convenient conclusion than an argument, I've certainly not seen anything to support that. If you want me to look at how people use words in general, I think you'd be surprised at how many people use immoral and amoral to mean the same thing, for instance. I'm not sure that's the best criteria, not for every (type of) word anyway.
Commoner, I have 3 degrees in linguistics, quite a few languages under my belt, and 40 years of professional experience, which has included a lot of lexicography. Do you really think that I would be surprised at the confusion between "immoral" and "amoral"? When I ask you to take usage as the basis of meaning and to avoid reliance on your own linguistic analysis, I know what I am talking about. I have already explained the difference between the prefix "a-" in Latinate loanwords like "atheist", "aphasia", etc., and the productive English prefix "a-" that attaches to adjectives like "amoral", "asymptomatic", "asocial", "acausal", etc. If you study the morphology of words, one of the first things you learn is that word-forming (derivational) prefixes and suffixes almost always attach to stems that are a particular part of speech. English just also happens to have a lot of Latinate words with more-or-less fossilized prefixes and suffixes.

The analogy with amoral wasn't really based on linguistics - I wouldn't know where to start. What I'm wondering about is if this whole "baby" business is even a proper consideration. I mean, I have a feeling that, regardless of whether we're talking about atheism or any other kind of label like "immoral", the question of what those labels apply to is of a different category. I'm not sure that arguing that, since it would mean that babies (for instance) are atheists (and that that might not be consistent with "common usage"), atheism should not be defined as simply "lack of belief". I get a distinct taste of straw in my mouth when I'm confronted with anything resembling this kind of argument. "Common usage" of the word "atheist" as I see it is far from anything specific enough as to include or exclude "just lack of belief in god", so if we're going by common usage, quite frankly I think this is pretty unresolvable. I don't know... :rolleyes:
I know. We are talking about very subtle intuitions here. The reason I brought up the "baby" test is that I've seen folks actually claim that babies were atheists, which is just absurd. It is a good test of people's intuitions, because you get strong opinions one way or the other. If one were going to do research on the use of "atheist", that is just the kind of question that tests intuitions about usage. You can ask people directly what a word means, but explanations are often skewed by opinions of how words ought to be used. In this case, we are dealing with a definition that is repeated over and over again, so people are naturally predisposed to accept it without question.

I'm not sure this thread has quite the same potential though... :rolleyes:
I wouldn't claim that it did, but I do think that getting people riled up over an issue like this does stimulate more critical thought in the future. I know that I have learned some things about how people perceive these labels, so I am not totally disappointed in the thread. And I haven't really lost my respect for any of the participants, although the discussion has been heated at times. Even Mball forgets himself from time to time and stops trying to insult me. :D
 

Commoner

Headache
Commoner, I have 3 degrees in linguistics, quite a few languages under my belt, and 40 years of professional experience, which has included a lot of lexicography. Do you really think that I would be surprised at the confusion between "immoral" and "amoral"? When I ask you to take usage as the basis of meaning and to avoid reliance on your own linguistic analysis, I know what I am talking about. I have already explained the difference between the prefix "a-" in Latinate loanwords like "atheist", "aphasia", etc., and the productive English prefix "a-" that attaches to adjectives like "amoral", "asymptomatic", "asocial", "acausal", etc. If you study the morphology of words, one of the first things you learn is that word-forming (derivational) prefixes and suffixes almost always attach to stems that are a particular part of speech. English just also happens to have a lot of Latinate words with more-or-less fossilized prefixes and suffixes.

Ok, obviously I'm just giving up here so...if you say so. For me the word had always meant exactly what the prefix would imply, but I'm certainly no language expert, especially not the English language.

I know. We are talking about very subtle intuitions here. The reason I brought up the "baby" test is that I've seen folks actually claim that babies were atheists, which is just absurd. It is a good test of people's intuitions, because you get strong opinions one way or the other. If one were going to do research on the use of "atheist", that is just the kind of question that tests intuitions about usage. You can ask people directly what a word means, but explanations are often skewed by opinions of how words ought to be used. In this case, we are dealing with a definition that is repeated over and over again, so people are naturally predisposed to accept it without question.

But I don't think it's a valid test - I think it's interesting and I certainly agree that a lot of the time people (including myself, I'm sure) will misuse definitions of words, intentionally or unintentionally, to fit with their way of thinking. So wouldn't you say it's important to look at various definitions that fit various contexts ranging from very broad descriptions to very specific examples and from that gain an understanding of the meaning of the word, rather than trying to form one "average" or "common usage" definition that fits everything?

Would you argue that it would be incorrect to say that atheists are also people who merely lack the belief in a god or that atheism is not necessarily a belief?

For instance, I see no problem with what Wikipedia has to say about the subject (not that I'm offering up wikipedia as any kind of authority on this matter):

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

I don't think any one of these is "the one", only as a whole do they accurately convey the meaning of the word. And I have to say, I don't think it's correct to say that atheism isn't also merely "the absence of belief that any deities exist" and thus not necessarily a belief. Babies notwithstanding.

I wouldn't claim that it did, but I do think that getting people riled up over an issue like this does stimulate more critical thought in the future. I know that I have learned some things about how people perceive these labels, so I am not totally disappointed in the thread. And I haven't really lost my respect for any of the participants, although the discussion has been heated at times. Even Mball forgets himself from time to time and stops trying to insult me. :D

Ok... :rolleyes:
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I know. We are talking about very subtle intuitions here. The reason I brought up the "baby" test is that I've seen folks actually claim that babies were atheists, which is just absurd.
:D

I wish to point out another aspect.

When some one says "I lack a belief in Deity", does that mean "I lack a belief that I lack a belief in deity"? One is ceratinly holding a belief/a position/a world view etc. etc. Is there any time when mind is devoid of a judgemental position -- for or against? What will semantics and/or logic prove or dis-prove in this case?

I think certain things are self evident but the truth about those things are easily distorted by various means, especially logic.
 
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Commoner

Headache
I wish to point out another aspect.

When some one says "I lack a belief in Deity", does that mean "I lack a belief that I lack a belief in deity"? One is ceratinly holding a belief/a position/a world view etc. etc. Is there any time when mind is devoid a judgemental position -- for or against? What will semantics and/or logic prove or dis-prove in this case?

I think certain things are self evident but the truth about those things are easily distorted by various means, especially logic.

But I don't think this is really about whether or not people are for or against an issue and whether or not one can truly be without a strong position either way. It's about whether or not atheism necessarily describes a belief or is it (also) something that describes purely a lack of a belief in god - regardless of other beliefs one might hold, even regarding religion. In other words, can you make additional assumptions about atheists, beyond "does not have a belief that a god exists"? I think it would be very hard to do so (but anyone is welcome to try) and if atheism were to be labeled a belief, one would have to wonder what exactly it consists of. A belief in a lack of belief perhaps? Seems a strange kind of thing to call a belief, not sure it fits with the "common usage" that seems to be the basis of this argument.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
But I don't think this is really about whether or not people are for or against an issue and whether or not one can truly be without a strong position either way. It's about whether or not atheism necessarily describes a belief or is it (also) something that describes purely a lack of a belief in god - regardless of other beliefs one might hold, even regarding religion. In other words, can you make additional assumptions about atheists, beyond "does not have a belief that a god exists"? I think it would be very hard to do so (but anyone is welcome to try) and if atheism were to be labeled a belief, one would have to wonder what exactly it consists of. A belief in a lack of belief perhaps? Seems a strange kind of thing to call a belief, not sure it fits with the "common usage" that seems to be the basis of this argument.
The "lack of belief," when we've made no investment, occurs only when there is nothing in which to invest.

"Disbelief" is the withdrawl of investment, taking our belief back and tucking it away in account until we can find something we consider more reasonable, or more worthwhile, in which to invest.

If I've handed you a tin can, with the label "God", there is something in which to invest.
 
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Commoner

Headache
The "lack of belief," when we've made no investment, occurs only when there is nothing in which to invest.

"Disbelief" is the withdrawl of investment, taking our belief back and tucking it away in account until we can find something we consider more reasonable, or more worthwhile, in which to invest.

If I've handed you a tin can, with the label "God", there is something in which to invest.

I disagree. Not investing in Microsoft isn't an investment. It is a conscious decision not to invest, but it does not necessarily make any other "position" any more valued in absolute terms. There is simply no extra benefit in the investment, so there is no motivation to move from "not investing in Microsoft" to "investing in Microsoft". This does not imply that having money invested in Microsoft is inferior per se, it's just that there is cost in making additional investments so any move from the default/starting position would be irrational given the current valuation of Microsoft.

This is sufficient reason to reject the investment, it is sufficient reason to reject the god assumption. Not that there aren't additional reasons for many of us.
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
But I don't think it's a valid test - I think it's interesting and I certainly agree that a lot of the time people (including myself, I'm sure) will misuse definitions of words, intentionally or unintentionally, to fit with their way of thinking. So wouldn't you say it's important to look at various definitions that fit various contexts ranging from very broad descriptions to very specific examples and from that gain an understanding of the meaning of the word, rather than trying to form one "average" or "common usage" definition that fits everything?
Yes and no. It is important to look at a broad range of usage and to try to sort out different word sense "buckets". That's what lexicographers are hired to do. They are also hired to produce definitions that reflect broad, average usage. The real complication in all of this is that word meanings shift around in discourse, and it is possible to make generalizations about how they shift. What I don't like about the "absence of belief" definition is that people take the words too literally. Every atheist has an absence of belief in the existence of gods, but every atheist has an absence of belief that they are dead. It would be ludicrous to claim that everyone who has an absence of belief that they are dead is an atheist. It does not sound as ludicrous to claim that everyone with an absence of belief in the existence of gods is an atheist, but it is the same kind of Procrustean thinking that drives that logic. Definitions define usage. Definitions do not prescribe usage.

Would you argue that it would be incorrect to say that atheists are also people who merely lack the belief in a god or that atheism is not necessarily a belief?
Atheism is very definitely a belief. It represents skepticism of the claim that there are gods. If we need a word to describe lack of opinion about the existence of gods, we usually use "agnosticism", although that word can also have a usage that is perfectly compatible with atheism. Almost everyone has an opinion about whether gods exist, so it is hard to find someone who literally has no belief at all with respect to their existence. Theists can be said to lack belief that gods do not exist, but they still possess a belief with respect to gods. Both atheism and theism describe a belief with respect to the existence of gods. They are incompatible "isms".

For instance, I see no problem with what Wikipedia has to say about the subject (not that I'm offering up wikipedia as any kind of authority on this matter):

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."
This Wikipedia definition was discussed several pages ago. A few folks--Mball in particular--seized on the expression "Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3]" Notice that there is a footnote. I bothered to read the footnote, but Mball did not. It is worth reading that footnote and following up on the references, particularly the Religious Tolerance web page called Definitions of the term "Atheism". Read the first paragraph in the Overview section. The only thing in it that I disagree with is the claim that atheists who "mesh well" with popular usage "may be in the minority". That appears to be a gratuitous assumption on their part. I do think that there is at least a vocal minority of atheists who do not want to be associated with the common usage definition, but that is a separate issue from whether or not it is an accurate description of common usage.

I don't think any one of these is "the one", only as a whole do they accurately convey the meaning of the word. And I have to say, I don't think it's correct to say that atheism isn't also merely "the absence of belief that any deities exist" and thus not necessarily a belief. Babies notwithstanding.
Hmm. That language is an utter train wreck of piled up negatives, but I'll try to sort it all out. :) I think you are saying that atheism is also "the absence of belief that any deities exist" and thus not necessarily a belief. A positive belief always entails absence of belief in its negation. Therefore, it is not inaccurate to claim that all atheists have an absence of belief that gods exist. That makes sense. What I think is inaccurate is to claim that an atheist can be someone who has an absence of belief that gods do not exist. Entailment is not a symmetrical operator, and atheism merely entails absence of belief that gods exist. So you cannot infer an actual absence of belief in the sense that babies have absence of belief that gods exist. Babies also have absence of belief that gods do not exist. That is why it is ludicrous to call them "atheists". This is a subtle point, I know. Nevertheless, it is the point that this entire debate has been hung up on.
 
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Commoner

Headache
Yes and no. It is important to look at a broad range of usage and to try to sort out different word sense "buckets". That's what lexicographers are hired to do. They are also hired to produce definitions that reflect broad, average usage. The real complication in all of this is that word meanings shift around in discourse, and it is possible to make generalizations about how they shift. What I don't like about the "absence of belief" definition is that people take the words too literally. Every atheist has an absence of belief in the existence of gods, but every atheist has an absence of belief that they are dead. It would be ludicrous to claim that everyone who has an absence of belief that they are dead is an atheist. It does not sound as ludicrous to claim that everyone with an absence of belief in the existence of gods is an atheist, but it is the same kind of Procrustean thinking that drives that logic. Definitions define usage. Definitions do not prescribe usage.

I don't understand what "death" has to do with it. This is not something specific to atheists, neither is it necessary for atheism - one could believe they are dead and disbelieve in gods at the same time. An absence of belief in god is necessary, it is specific to atheists and exclusive to atheists (depending on the definition). I don't see the logical connection between the two, maybe I'm missing something? If you think the definition would be taken too literally, the solution is providing the context, not changing the meaning, no?

Atheism is very definitely a belief. It represents skepticism of the claim that there are gods. If we need a word to describe lack of opinion about the existence of gods, we usually use "agnosticism", although that word can also have a usage that is perfectly compatible with atheism. Almost everyone has an opinion about whether gods exist, so it is hard to find someone who literally has no belief at all with respect to their existence. Theists can be said to lack belief that gods do not exist, but they still possess a belief with respect to gods. Both atheism and theism describe a belief with respect to the existence of gods. They are incompatible "isms".

Would you call theists' position that they lack the belief that god does not exist a belief as well? I think you're shifting the focus here a bit - I agree that everyone probably has a belief regarding the existence of a god. The question is whether or not atheism is what describes that belief. Theism is not a belief about the lack of belief that god does not exist - it is specifically the belief that god does exist. Atheism is necessary a response to that claim, and is the rejection of theism. But there are many different reasons one might use to reject a claim - for instance, a perceived lack of justification for such a belief. I don't see how that implies a belief that gods do not exist. Strictly speaking, such a conclusion - based solely on the lack of justification for a belief in god - would be irrational. That's not to say that I don't think there is justification for a belief that gods don't exist and that it is actually rational to believe that god(s) do not exist. So this distinction exists, the only question then is - is there any reason why in certain situations a rejection of the belief in god might not be called atheism? I have to say I'm leaning towards "no". And while "lack of belief in god" on its own might not be a good definition for various reasons, it shouldn't be ignored either - because that opens you up to misinterpretations as well.

This Wikipedia definition was discussed several pages ago. A few folks--Mball in particular--seized on the expression "Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3]" Notice that there is a footnote. I bothered to read the footnote, but Mball did not. It is worth reading that footnote and following up on the references, particularly the Religious Tolerance web page called Definitions of the term "Atheism". Read the first paragraph in the Overview section. The only thing in it that I disagree with is the claim that atheists who "mesh well" with popular usage "may be in the minority". That appears to be a gratuitous assumption on their part. I do think that there is at least a vocal minority of atheists who do not want to be associated with the common usage definition, but that is a separate issue from whether or not it is an accurate description of common usage.

Ok... I think I should point out that I have no problem being associated with "atheism" by either definition. I both lack the belief in a god and hold the belief that specific gods do not exist. Yet I do recognize a distinction between the two and would not want to be considered any less of an atheist for not holding the belief that gods, at least the god concepts I'm aware of, do not exist.


Hmm. That language is an utter train wreck of piled up negatives, but I'll try to sort it all out. :) I think you are saying that atheism is also "the absence of belief that any deities exist" and thus not necessarily a belief. A positive belief always entails absence of belief in its negation. Therefore, it is not inaccurate to claim that all atheists have an absence of belief that gods exist. That makes sense. What I think is inaccurate is to claim that an atheist can be someone who has an absence of belief that gods do not exist. Entailment is not a symmetrical operator, and atheism merely entails absence of belief that gods exist. So you cannot infer an actual absence of belief in the sense that babies have absence of belief that gods exist. Babies also have absence of belief that gods do not exist. That is why it is ludicrous to call them "atheists". This is a subtle point, I know. Nevertheless, it is the point that this entire debate has been hung up on.

I'm not really infering it from the "absence of belief". I'm considering the thought process that goes into rejecting a belief and deriving the definition from that. I need no belief that gods don't exist in order to reject any/every claim that a god exists. Do you disagree?

I mean, obviously, if you are of the opinion that, in order for someone to be an atheist, they have to do more than simply reject the claim that god exists, then we'll have to agree to disagree. If not, then I think this issue is resolvable.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I disagree. Not investing in Microsoft isn't an investment. It is a conscious decision not to invest, but it does not necessarily make any other "position" any more valued in absolute terms. There is simply no extra benefit in the investment, so there is no motivation to move from "not investing in Microsoft" to "investing in Microsoft". This does not imply that having money invested in Microsoft is inferior per se, it's just that there is cost in making additional investments so any move from the default/starting position would be irrational given the current valuation of Microsoft.

This is sufficient reason to reject the investment, it is sufficient reason to reject the god assumption. Not that there aren't additional reasons for many of us.
Well, there's a difference between Microsoft and the world. The former we can choose to invest in. Investment in the latter is a metaphor.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What does it mean to 'disbelieve' something? You've been faced with a claim or statement, or even a circumstance (aspects of the same thing), and some toggle inside has flicked to go, "No, that can't be so" or "No, that's not right."

'Belief' is the same toggle, in the raised position.

IMO, the question of this thread is what we should call the case when the toge isn't there at all. Is right to call the light "off" when the switch is completely missing?
 

Commoner

Headache
Well, there's a difference between Microsoft and the world. The former we can choose to invest in. Investment in the latter is a metaphor.

I can choose to make the assumption that god exists. In order to have a motivation for doing so, I must have proper justification for making an additional assumption - as I do if I want to make the assumption that god does not exist. However, to reject making the additional assumption I only require lack of justification - it does not imply an acceptance of the "alternative hypothesis", since there might not be any justification for that either. Once I reject the "god hypothesis", am I an atheist?
 
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