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Why the Christians have the false assumption that they are going to Heaven

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

~Romans 2:5-7

Gotta sneak some Pauline perspective in. ;)

The problem with believers who assume the kingdom of heaven is that they tend to be smug. What's even worse, for a compassionate sort, is dealing with Christians who labor under an assumption of the other destination. ;)
 

Where Is God

Creator
Why do people have the false assumption that it's OK to create threads with titles that call other people's beliefs false assumptions?

Why do people have the false assumption that it's OK to picket a dead soldiers funeral? (Westboros)

Why do people have the false assumption that it's OK to disallow gay marriage?

Oh I know why, false religious assumptions. We have the freedom of speeh to say eff that.:beach:
 

That Dude

Christian
from before our very inception...life faces random indifference...

think of that one little tiny sperm cell that made it to the egg...
why the need for so many sperm cells?

it's like landing on the shores of iwo jima... dependent on timing and random chance...

A woman constantly produces cervical fluid (or mucus) throughout her menstral cycle. Most of the time this mucus is acidic and deadly to sperm. But as she approaches ovulation, the mucus changes and become conductive to sperm and actually assists keeping sperm alive (for up to 3-5 days) until the egg is released maximising her chance of conception.

Read more: Answers.com - Does a woman's body kill sperm once it has entered into the vagina


:shrug:

edit:
how do you explain free will in the face of natural disasters? it's not as though hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes and tsunamis are a result of free will...
No, uh...
You're taking it to far. Keep it within the "human condition"
A little boy gets a sports car for his birthday. He likes the car so much that he spends his life buying toy models and remote control versions of the car.
He grows up and buys the real thing to fulfill a life long dream.
He drives off the dealers lot and runs over a little old lady, killing her.
Now he hates the car and takes a sudden and dramatic turn for the worse down the road of life. What's he do to recover emotionally and get back on track?
Those are the kind of questions that are subject to free will.
Mostly because they're chaotic in nature.
The enjoyment of the car could have been predicted, but not hitting the little old lady or what he would do afterward.

If you're not born, you don't exist, so you couldn't be part of the equation anyway
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
No, uh...
You're taking it to far. Keep it within the "human condition"
A little boy gets a sports car for his birthday. He likes the car so much that he spends his life buying toy models and remote control versions of the car.
He grows up and buys the real thing to fulfill a life long dream.
He drives off the dealers lot and runs over a little old lady, killing her.
Now he hates the car and takes a sudden and dramatic turn for the worse down the road of life. What's he do to recover emotionally and get back on track?
Those are the kind of questions that are subject to free will.
Mostly because they're chaotic in nature.
The enjoyment of the car could have been predicted, but not hitting the little old lady or what he would do afterward.

If you're not born, you don't exist, so you couldn't be part of the equation anyway

the human condition is a part of it yes but it is ultimately subjected to our environment, isn't that real life?
i don't get it. are you saying because he got a toy car for his birthday that somehow started a chain of events that lead to the old ladies death?
how he decides to deal with the random accident is his choice...but no one had a choice in the matter that lead up to the old ladies death.

how am i taking it too far? these are things we observe everyday.
free will doesn't explain why a mother and her child died in a freak accident involving a branch falling on them in central park...
free will would involve someone who intended them to be killed by deliberately running them over when crossing the street.

your story was an example of a random chaotic event...how many little boys get a car for their bday and never run over an old lady?

actually, i thought my iwo jima comment was genius :curtsy:
 

That Dude

Christian
the human condition is a part of it yes but it is ultimately subjected to our environment, isn't that real life?
i don't get it. are you saying because he got a toy car for his birthday that somehow started a chain of events that lead to the old ladies death?
Yes, but that's beside the point. Kind of.
What he did after the old lady is more closely related to free will then what he did leading up to that moment. With out any prior experience he had nothing to relate too. Which made the whole thing chaotic. If he had a reference point his action might have been predicted.
how he decides to deal with the random accident is his choice...but no one had a choice in the matter that lead up to the old ladies death.
Right and right. And if no one had chosen, then there could have been no foreseeable outcome. If the kids dad was a mechanic, then it's easy to see why he liked the car.
But that doesn't say anything about why the old lady was hit. So there is no way to tell what he is going to do after he hits her. That's what makes it his choice and his choice alone.
how am i taking it too far? these are things we observe everyday.
free will doesn't explain why a mother and her child died in a freak accident involving a branch falling on them in central park...
free will would involve someone who intended them to be killed by deliberately running them over when crossing the street.
Sorry, I worded that wrong. Free will didn't take effect until "after" his accident.
your story was an example of a random chaotic event...how many little boys get a car for their bday and never run over an old lady?
That's true.
But we all experience things that we have no reference to in one form or another.
How we react to the unexpected is our free will at it's best.
actually, i thought my iwo jima comment was genius :curtsy:
No arguments here :D
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Yes, but that's beside the point. Kind of.
What he did after the old lady is more closely related to free will then what he did leading up to that moment. With out any prior experience he had nothing to relate too. Which made the whole thing chaotic. If he had a reference point his action might have been predicted.

Right and right. And if no one had chosen, then there could have been no foreseeable outcome. If the kids dad was a mechanic, then it's easy to see why he liked the car.
But that doesn't say anything about why the old lady was hit. So there is no way to tell what he is going to do after he hits her. That's what makes it his choice and his choice alone.

Sorry, I worded that wrong. Free will didn't take effect until "after" his accident.

That's true.
But we all experience things that we have no reference to in one form or another.
How we react to the unexpected is our free will at it's best.

No arguments here :D

but indifferent random events lead up to the accident...
...it's an unavoidable part of the equation...
just like anything else... i am a musician and i can pinpoint a moment in time where the entire course of my career started which was an entirely random event and had nothing to do with music... that isn't free will, not in my book
:)
 

That Dude

Christian
but indifferent random events lead up to the accident...
...it's an unavoidable part of the equation...
If he didn't like the car in the first place he wouldn't have bought it.
The reason why he liked the car was influenced by another person.
just like anything else... i am a musician and i can pinpoint a moment in time where the entire course of my career started which was an entirely random event and had nothing to do with music... that isn't free will, not in my book
:)
Why wouldn't something that is indifferent allow you to exercise your free will?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
waitasec

I share your concern... sojourner said exactly what I thought after I read your first thought. Words and teachings so often hide the spirit of grace... but to me the fascinating power of honest words from an honest heart is grace.
I said that grace is a gift that has been effected... I don't see what's to be concerned about?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
But that doesn't say anything about why the old lady was hit. So there is no way to tell what he is going to do after he hits her. That's what makes it his choice and his choice alone.
But if you personally know him, it'd be quite easy to tell what he would do if he accidentally hit an old lady. (How easy it is depends on how well you know him.)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If he didn't like the car in the first place he wouldn't have bought it.
The reason why he liked the car was influenced by another person.
his taste for cars has nothing to do with the accident...
because the old lady forgot her hearing aid and went back to get it made the timing of the accident possible for example...
there are so many variables...it's endless.

Why wouldn't something that is indifferent allow you to exercise your free will?

i don't think i said that, did i? :confused:
the fact that there are indifferent random events happening all around us all the time changes everything.

i am a songwriter...
there are musical laws as to how to invoke a certain feeling...but at the same time a level of improvising is involved...there is no preparation for how a recording session will turn out especially when you have players who don't usually play together...chemistry and influences play a big role (which are all elements of free will), but when thrown together in a melting pot with the element of improve the end result takes on a life of it's own...
listen to how "pinball wizard" from the who sounds like and compare it to elton john's version....it's the same song but received differently... the way in which it is presented and taken in is the result of random indifference...why was elton john version more popular? :shrug:
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do people have the false assumption that it's OK to picket a dead soldiers funeral? (Westboros)

Because they're idiots?

Why do people have the false assumption that it's OK to disallow gay marriage?

Because they're bigots?

Oh I know why, false religious assumptions. We have the freedom of speeh to say eff that.:beach:

No you don't. :no:

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you're free to weasel out of the agreement you signed when you registered here.

But thanks for answering my question.
 

nevaya

Member
Why do people have the false assumption that it's OK to create threads with titles that call other people's beliefs false assumptions?
Because it gets the attension of those who don't understand their own belief. I never said their beleif wasa false in general, just that most are not well enough educated in their own beliefs.
 

nevaya

Member
The extreme difficulty inherent in the words of Christ account for the grace presented by his sacrifice on the cross. Here a teacher presented something even more impossible to us than Moses... so he cut us a break and told us to believe in him and love one another. Yeah... my faith in Christ is best shown and not spoken... but I do believe predestination and free will combined make no sense at all without the gift of grace. More than that I cannot say because I don't know... and there's not to much I assume beyond the grace I feel I recieve everyday from trying to follow Jesus and his teachings.
but, in light of the words of jesus himself, throughout the blible it become clear that Gods grace is not given for reasons of good works. Nor is disposed upon those who simply beileive either.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Because it gets the attension of those who don't understand their own belief.
Those who you feel don't understand their own beliefs.
I never said their beleif wasa false in general, just that most are not well enough educated in their own beliefs.

Not well enough for your tastes you mean.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
my appreciation for the here and now comes by being humbled through life experience. you stated that grace is a gift, but i don't see it as a gift because this grace comes at the expense of others...not by being present.
sheer random indifference is what i was referring to, by being humbled, in contrast to your idea of grace as a gift.

life experience has humbled me to the point where i cannot see a gift of grace
only an opportunity to appreciate the here and now
:D

Maybe that's grace...

not if it's at the expense of others.
:rainbow1:

How does being fully present happen at the expense of someone else???
 
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Sum1sGruj

Active Member
Because it gets the attension of those who don't understand their own belief. I never said their beleif wasa false in general, just that most are not well enough educated in their own beliefs.

Wha? Your Satanist. We should be the ones educating you on your belief. Satan is our Adversary, after all.

Any Christian who states that they believe in Jesus but does not heed his teachings are not really Christian at all.
Vanity only leads to evil. Without it, there would be no oppression. This is why the Bible stresses on you letting go of your self-importance and give unto the Lord. Every time you think about yourself and not others, you are contributing to the chaos this world is. Love thy neighbor.

As a Christian, the most important thing is to clean yourself up. Get rid of your burdens, forgive others, forget about the vain obscurities in you life and walk with the king.
This why it is harder for a rich man. The rich generally have more objection towards others and are faced with many temptations literally all the time.
Get married, stay faithful. Be generous.

It goes on and on, but the bottom line is when you accept Jesus, you are already considered part of the kingdom. Which means you have a responsibility.
 
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