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Can an Islamist party be truly Democratic

kai

ragamuffin

Bismillah

Submit
kai I am aware of the split between the older and newer generations among the MB. In regards to the particular topic it concerns the appointment of the Caliph in the final stages of the formation of a Musilm country.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
From #12
"Both Sayyid Qutb and the Muslim Brotherhood became radicalized when imprisoned and tortured by US/CIA TRAINED Security Forces and the US BACKED anti democratic forces in Egypt" .

Oh i see its the USA's fault

How can I make it any clearer? Qutb and hundreds of members of the Muslim Brotherhood (at that stage an organization in no way 'radical') were imprisoned and tortured (literally had 'the dogs set upon them'...sound familiar?) and this torture was conducted/overseen by US/CIA trained Security personel.

How radical would you think the Nazi Party were,it is well known Al Banna was an admirer of the Nazis Adolf Hitler and eugenics,non of this was anything to do with the USA only the delusion of a Jew hater.

>THAT< brutalization tends to radicalise people.
You ignore entirely the role of the US/CIA and ask me if Qutb "had nothing to do with the radicalization of the MB"?

Again read the history,Al Banna Qutb and co were going to do what they did because Germany was their model.

Sure he did...he showed his Muslim Brothers the dog bite wounds and many said-"Hell, I've got those too"...I guess it was their fault for talking about and getting upset about the role of a foreign power in torturing Egyptian citizens? Huh?

Perhaps if they didn't go round popping a cap in some poor soul they would have been ok

Al Banna? Yea he was a real trouble maker too wasn't he. What does a short walk to Wiki reveal about " the radicalization of the MB" and "especially Al Banna" in this "radicalization"?

Like i said always radical

‘[T]he British and the Jews will understand only one language, the language of revolution, force and blood’.
‘Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them…This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honour. God is with you.’"
He was appalled by the many conspicuous signs of foreign military and economic domination in Isma'iliyya: the British military camps, the public utilities owned by foreign interests, and the luxurious residences of the foreign employees of the Suez Canal Company, next to the squalid dwellings of the Egyptian workers.

He may well have been,he was though a revivalist,Wahab and Ibn Saud his inspiration.

He endeavored to bring about the changes he hoped for through institution-building, relentless activism at the grassroots level, and a reliance on mass communication. He proceeded to build a complex mass movement that featured sophisticated governance structures; sections in charge of furthering the society's values among peasants, workers, and professionals; units entrusted with key functions, including propagation of the message, liaison with the Islamic world, and press and translation; and specialized committees for finances and legal affairs.
Directly attached to the brotherhood, and feeding its expansion, were numerous businesses, clinics, and schools. In addition, members were affiliated to the movement through a series of cells, revealingly called usar (families. singular: usrah).

The MB have a method,Mosque first then some kind of community centre,a Charity under its Umberella mostly in poor areas with poor education so they can teach people their delusion.

Concerned with the increasing assertiveness and popularity of the brotherhood, as well as with rumors that it was plotting a coup, Prime MinisterMahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha disbanded it in December 1948. The organization's assets were impounded and scores of its members sent to jail. Less than three weeks later, the prime minister was assassinated by a member of the brotherhood, Abdul Majid Ahmad Hasan. Following the assassination, Al-Banna promptly released a statement condemning the assassination, stating that terror is not an acceptable way in Islam."

And from Hassan al-Banna

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

How reminicent of Adolf Hitler that quote is

"The British even invited al-Banna to their embassy for tea. He was complimented on his good character and his welfare work for the poor, the orphans and the widows was applauded. They explained that the world was very fragile and that Egypt must be built into a modern and prosperous state. They concluded that it was in the Ikhwans interest to get assistance from the British.
Al-Banna listened patiently, then told the Ambassador that Egypt and all its money is the property of the Egyptian people and that Britain's time in Egypt was coming to an end. Al-Banna was exiled to Upper Egypt in 1948."

The British screwed up,especially with the Mufti who should have been tried and sentenced for the Murders and riots he instigated.

So what was Al-Banna's role in the "radicalization" of the Muslim Brotherhood?

He hated Jews,he loved Wahabb and Saud and he wanted the world to be as deluded as he was

Recognized charity work and telling the British "that Egypt and all its money is the property of the Egyptian people and that Britain's time in Egypt was coming to an end"?

What an outrageous 'radical'.

Read the above quotes,i suppose though it comes down to what you consider radical,Al Banna hated Jews,Qutb hated Jahilliya,the Mufti had an SS Muslim Division and even had plans for extermination camps in Palestine if Germany won the war.

"When Palestine was under British occupation, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a position appointed by the British Mandate authorities."*

Correct

Oh Poop! The British Mandate authorities "appointed" a Nazi sympathizer did they?:eek:

Yes they did:(

"In 1937, Amin al-Husayni fled to Lebanon to avoid arrest for anti-British activities, and did not return to Palestine. From Lebanon, he began communication with the Nazis."*

Yes and moved to Berlin and recruited his Muslim SS Hanjar Division and started planning his extermination Camps

Gee perhaps this "radicalization" of Egyptian citizens had >something< to do with a sucession of foreign powers bleeding their country, torturing their citizens and “appointing” their Nazi sympathiser officials?

Perhaps you could produce some evidence of all this US/UK backed torture,i agree though they were stupid to appoint the Mufti.

I'd like it to be so "radical" that this "appointed" stooge of the British Mandate Authorities be recognized as having ZERO role or influence in the Muslim Brotherhood and that introducing this bogus lap dog/Nazi reduces your arguement to rubble.

Ahh,this isn't new,trying to distance the MB today from their very unsavoury past,the Mufti was a central figure of the MB
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
kai I am aware of the split between the older and newer generations among the MB. In regards to the particular topic it concerns the appointment of the Caliph in the final stages of the formation of a Musilm country.

And a final farewell to Democracy,their is a split and it will be interesting to see who wins in that respect
 

kai

ragamuffin
kai I am aware of the split between the older and newer generations among the MB. In regards to the particular topic it concerns the appointment of the Caliph in the final stages of the formation of a Musilm country.

What? in regards this discussion it concerns the presidency of Egypt.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Can a Muslim be the Pope?


whats that got to do with it.

lets have it straight and stopping messing around with notions of Caliphs.

whats the MB policy on

Women in politics and can one be president?
Copts in politics and can one be president?
Baha'i in politics and can one be president?
Homosexuals in politics and can one be president?


That should clear up any misunderstandings
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
The Freedom and Justice Party which is to be the Political arm of the MB have a platform to work from,the MB website says a detailed platform will be released:

The Brotherhood has confirmed that it does not object to the election of women or Copts in cabinet.[4] The group supports free-market capitalism, but without manipulation or monopoly. The party&#8217;s political program would include tourism as a main source of national income.[5] Freedom and Justice Party will be based on Islamic Law "but will be acceptable to a wide segment of the population," said leading MB member Essam al-Arian.[6] The party&#8217;s membership will be open to all Egyptians who accept the terms of its program.[7] The spokesperson for the party said that "when we talk about the slogans of the revolution &#8211; freedom, social justice, equality &#8211; all of these are in the Sharia (Islamic law)."

I guess that means Gays,Bai Hai's,Atheists and Apostates along with Women will not be getting the Presidents job.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Frankly, it seems to me that the issue is not whether they are Muslim fundamentalist radicals or fundamentalist radicals from any other religion. Generally speaking, fundamentalist radicals don't make for democratic government, whatever religion they happen to be from. And there is no such thing as a democratic theocracy. Theocracy requires some level of fundamentalism. Democracy requires some level of pluralism.

I am just as opposed to radical Islamist political parties in Muslim countries as I am to the Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) political parties in Israel. Nobody gets a pass on this. There's not necessarily something wrong with using your religion as an ethical lens to view social action, but it stops being helpful as soon as the state defines an official religion, and takes upon itself the power to tell people what they ought to believe and how they ought to observe.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Frankly, it seems to me that the issue is not whether they are Muslim fundamentalist radicals or fundamentalist radicals from any other religion. Generally speaking, fundamentalist radicals don't make for democratic government, whatever religion they happen to be from. And there is no such thing as a democratic theocracy. Theocracy requires some level of fundamentalism. Democracy requires some level of pluralism.

I agree,like oil and water

I am just as opposed to radical Islamist political parties in Muslim countries as I am to the Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) political parties in Israel. Nobody gets a pass on this. There's not necessarily something wrong with using your religion as an ethical lens to view social action, but it stops being helpful as soon as the state defines an official religion, and takes upon itself the power to tell people what they ought to believe and how they ought to observe.

Agree with this aswell
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Everything.

I do not think you fully understand the purpose of a Caliph.

A caliph is very simmilar to the Pope,to preserve and expand the faith and be Gods Immam on Earth,one reason the MB would not let a Woman be the President or Caliph is because they cannot lead the Friday prayers.

So can a Muslim be a Pope?

Sure if he converts to Catholicism and goes to a poor Country like Africa to do missionary work and work his way up to Bishop,then when the current Pope dies or retires they take a vote,if he gets enough votes hey presto.
 

Bismillah

Submit
EML said:
No,neither can a Satanist,Wicca,Luciferian or Atheist so whats your point
That is exactly my point.

The Caliph is the spiritual leader of Islam. His whole existence and purpose is entertained with the religion.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
That is exactly my point.

The Caliph is the spiritual leader of Islam. His whole existence and purpose is entertained with the religion.

Of course and probaly the Islamic world would benefit from a Caliph,although i doubt Shia's would accept one,still not compatible with Democracy though
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Can an Islamist party be truly Democratic
I have yet to see a "truly democratic" party.
Of course, it seems to me that since the USA is not a true democracy, that that would stand to reason.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Of course and probaly the Islamic world would benefit from a Caliph,although i doubt Shia's would accept one,still not compatible with Democracy though
The Shia would only except a Caliph who is a progeny of the Prophet.

Also given that a Caliph arises from consultation and consent why is that process in itself not democratic?

The Caliph is readily checked by the power of the public and all major policies can only be enacted through this consent.

Given that contenders are not allowed to campaign for themselves, but are chosen wouldn't this eliminate the problem of actually reaching office that we see in the West? That is in the U.S you need a large monetary investment as well as donations from separate identities to even stand a chance.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
The Shia would only except a Caliph who is a progeny of the Prophet.

Thats a huge hurdle to navigate

Also given that a Caliph arises from consultation and consent why is that process in itself not democratic?

If its seperate from Government and only concerns faith its not an issue

The Caliph is readily checked by the power of the public and all major policies can only be enacted through this consent.

All well and good,any policy regarding non Muslims would not be dealt with fairly as was the case with the last Egyptian Government.

Given that contenders are not allowed to campaign for themselves, but are chosen wouldn't this eliminate the problem of actually reaching office that we see in the West? That is in the U.S you need a large monetary investment as well as donations from separate identities to even stand a chance.

It would still be a problem for non Muslims,well it would be a problem for me if i were an Egyptian.
 
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