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Question for Christians

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Of course the laws of our Bible are the laws of God.
But traditional christians do not obey them. They either believe the laws to be for the Jews only or they believe them to be abolished, no longer have to be kept.
Could you explain why you believe this way? We know that when Jesus Christ came to earth, it was partly to fulfill the Old Covenant. His death, for instance, ended sacrifice by the shedding of blood. But I would assume that God still expects us to obey many of the laws He gave prior to Jesus' coming, and see no reason at all for us to simply say, "Well, that was in the Old Testament, so it no longer applies." To me, it sounds like that's what you're doing. Maybe you could help me understand why.

Just believing in Jesus does not result in obedience to him. More is required of true christians than just believing Jas.2v19, we must be doers of God's Word Jas.1v22-24. Traditional christian churches fail to teach that. They call it being legalistic yet the Bible commands it for sin is to break (not keeping) the laws of God.1Joh.3v4.
I totally believe that we must be obedient to God's commandments, which is why your first paragraph was confusing to me.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Katspur , sorry but I can not follow your reasoning.
If you consider the commandments important why don't you observe the 4th ref to the Sabbath to keep it holy ?
No man not even the Apostles (if that's how you see it) can change God's sanctified day to an ordinary weekday. There are no scriptures to support sunday worship.And no scripture says Jesus rose on sunday - but was risen (past tense) when they turned up at the tomb.It was simply the time and day he was discovered risen. His own prediction gave 3 days AND 3 nights = 72 hours for him to be in the tomb and friday sunset to sunday sunrise (when he was already risen and no longer there) are hardly even 36 hours.
If the Apostles turned to sunday worship why were all persecuted and killed for their accommodating gesture ? There would have been no reason to get rid of them.
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Katspur , sorry but I can not follow your reasoning.
If you consider the commandments important why don't you observe the 4th ref to the Sabbath to keep it holy ?
No man not even the Apostles (if that's how you see it) can change God's sanctified day to an ordinary weekday. There are no scriptures to support sunday worship.And no scripture says Jesus rose on sunday - but was risen (past tense) when they turned up at the tomb.It was simply the time and day he was discovered risen. His own prediction gave 3 days AND 3 nights = 72 hours for him to be in the tomb and friday sunset to sunday sunrise (when he was already risen and no longer there) are hardly even 36 hours.
If the Apostles turned to sunday worship why were all persecuted and killed for their accommodating gesture ? There would have been no reason to get rid of them.
I think that's looking beyond the mark. So what if I had an inaccurate calender? What if I lived in an isolated society where the weekdays were shifted and what we thought was Saturday was really Wednesday? Does that mean that I would be breaking the law of the Sabbath if I worshiped on what I thought was Saturday but was really Wednesday? Jesus taught that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Why was Sabbath made for man? What purpose does it serve?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Katspur , sorry but I can not follow your reasoning.
If you consider the commandments important why don't you observe the 4th ref to the Sabbath to keep it holy ?
That's a good question. If I'm going to choose a religion to affiliate with, I've got to go with with one that I can most fully agree with. There may be two or three practices that I don't fully comprehend, but when 99.99% of them do, it wouldn't make much sense for me to go with one that I was less in agreement with, wouldn't you agree? Besides, you must realize that I don't believe every single solitary think Jesus told His Apostles ended up in the Bible. Plus, I believe in modern-day revelation, though which God's approval of Sunday worship has been made known to us.

No man not even the Apostles (if that's how you see it) can change God's sanctified day to an ordinary weekday. There are no scriptures to support sunday worship.
To me, this is a case of where the spirit of the law supercedes the letter of the law. I believe that God wants us to set aside a day each week to be a holy one, to be a day of rest and a day that is spent doing things we don't do on the other six days -- shopping, going to movies, doing yard work, etc. My personal convictions are that He cares less about the actual 24-hour period on which we do this than that we do it. Furthermore, I don't believe in a literal 24-hour 7-day creation, so the idea that there was one 24-hour period that He rested is not particularly meaningful to me. Finally, and along this same line, I can't imagine that in the history of the world, mankind has been so perfectly accurate that no errors have been made in our calendar, leading to a 1-day error.

If the Apostles turned to sunday worship why were all persecuted and killed for their accommodating gesture ? There would have been no reason to get rid of them.
Sorry, you lost me there. You're going to have to explain what you mean.
 
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Beta

Well-Known Member
Could you explain why you believe this way? We know that when Jesus Christ came to earth, it was partly to fulfill the Old Covenant. His death, for instance, ended sacrifice by the shedding of blood. But I would assume that God still expects us to obey many of the laws He gave prior to Jesus' coming, and see no reason at all for us to simply say, "Well, that was in the Old Testament, so it no longer applies." To me, it sounds like that's what you're doing. Maybe you could help me understand why.

I totally believe that we must be obedient to God's commandments, which is why your first paragraph was confusing to me.
I don't profess to understand everything about all OT laws but I believe Jesus simplified much for us and to this end I try to keep the 10 Commandments , the Feast Days in Lev.23 and the food-laws Lev.11.plus hygene laws for obvious reasons . I believe in Offerings/Tithes and Sabbath assemblies which for me are difficult being infirm ,handicapped and isolated. Nevertheless there is contact with fellow-believers.
This may not be the perfect way but is what I see required of me according to my understanding.)(
 

AllanV

Active Member
I know what faith is, Allan. Millions of people today have faith and yet cannot agree on the most basic Christian doctrines.

Yes I have been to a lot of different types of Churches.

Nobody is taking part in the necessary mind and heart change. There is only one mind, everyone needs to be expressing and vocalizing from the same mind.
The nature of Jesus is perfect and acceptable to God. This must be attained for the individual to know God and this is powerful.
 

AllanV

Active Member
Being doers of God's word is speaking in Love from a pure mind and heart. It is not reading and then doing what a person thinks the books are saying. This would just conform a person to peer pressure.

Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Since the days of the week are a tribute to pagan gods, what difference which day you worship
Monday is moon day of which was a Canaanite god
Tuesday is Mars day of which was a god
Wednesday is various gods Odin, and mercury
Thursday is named for a Norse god
Friday is named for a Norse god
Saturday is a name for various gods among them Saturn
Sunday is for the Sun god Egyptian and Canaanite

So, I can not see how you can say that Sunday is the "7th" day. If you read Genesis you will see that the Sun is the "greater light" and the moon is the "lesser light" insuring that pagan gods were not introduced into the story.

Just a thought.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
I think that's looking beyond the mark. So what if I had an inaccurate calender? What if I lived in an isolated society where the weekdays were shifted and what we thought was Saturday was really Wednesday? Does that mean that I would be breaking the law of the Sabbath if I worshiped on what I thought was Saturday but was really Wednesday? Jesus taught that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Why was Sabbath made for man? What purpose does it serve?
If you were in a situation of total ignorance and could not determine which day was the Sabbath I'm sure God would forgive . But since we have a Sabbath wherever we live He would expect us to observe that day. God forgives what we don't know but not blatant refusal to do what we can.
To do what we like on the Sabbath is to override or snub the Will of God .It is holy time belonging to God which he invites us to share with him - that is the purpose.
 

AllanV

Active Member
Since the days of the week are a tribute to pagan gods, what difference which day you worship
Monday is moon day of which was a Canaanite god
Tuesday is Mars day of which was a god
Wednesday is various gods Odin, and mercury
Thursday is named for a Norse god
Friday is named for a Norse god
Saturday is a name for various gods among them Saturn
Sunday is for the Sun god Egyptian and Canaanite

So, I can not see how you can say that Sunday is the "7th" day. If you read Genesis you will see that the Sun is the "greater light" and the moon is the "lesser light" insuring that pagan gods were not introduced into the story.

Just a thought.

As far as history goes I think the religious days are correctly placed but of course you are right about their names.
There are many cycles employed in creation and the structure of everything. There are resonating cycles. There does seem to be one regarding the week as seven days.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I think that's looking beyond the mark. So what if I had an inaccurate calender?


That sounds plausible but then how would you explain this:

What if I lived in an isolated society where the weekdays were shifted and what we thought was Saturday was really Wednesday?Does that mean that I would be breaking the law of the Sabbath if I worshiped on what I thought was Saturday but was really Wednesday? Jesus taught that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Why was Sabbath made for man? What purpose does it serve?

That's precisely the situation the Hebrews found themselves. They were enslaved for so long, they lost track of the 7th day sabbath along with the other 9 commandments which had been in effect since creation and passed down from Adam to the time they were enslaved. Soon after their release from bondage, God reminded them which day of the week it was in Exodus 16.
 

AllanV

Active Member
If you were in a situation of total ignorance and could not determine which day was the Sabbath I'm sure God would forgive . But since we have a Sabbath wherever we live He would expect us to observe that day. God forgives what we don't know but not blatant refusal to do what we can.
To do what we like on the Sabbath is to override or snub the Will of God .It is holy time belonging to God which he invites us to share with him - that is the purpose.

The comment "snub the will of God" brought something to mind. We are to do the will of God from the heart and this is continuous. And this is Love from a pure mind and heart and this is in a perfect nature. This is not in human nature.

This is what was missing in the churches that keep to the letter. They may be following a commandment from God but have missed the teaching of Jesus and what is able to be revealed through Him. And that is His perfect nature, this is attained and transforms in the renewal of the mind. This cannot be done by following a commandment but by the Spirit.
To achieve this new state every day has to be the same for as long as it takes to attain to it. For me it was three weeks. This is not including the many years from the first experience.
Before this act was complete the only example was the 10 commandments because I was not complete. It was the Holy Spirit that brought me to completion not the written commandments.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
This may not be the perfect way but is what I see required of me according to my understanding.)(
To be perfectly honest, I believe that it means a great deal to God how obedient we are to what we sincerely believe He expects of us and that, at the end of the day, that's going to matter more to Him than any of the details.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
But religious leaders are not our spiritual fathers in the truest sense.(the Bible says call no man your father except your natural one).

So what?
Why would a spiritual leader have be your father for you to follow him?

GOD is our true spiritual Father and we must do what HE says not men on earth.

Many christians believe Jesus is God, so they are obeying him, and Judaism believes it has the laws of God, so they are also obeying him.

No one is compelled to follow or obey a religious leader. If people do and it turns out to be wrong they can only blame themselves and not their leader. It's called taking responsibility for YOUR OWN actions and choices and God will hold them to account.

Yes, but like i said above people believe they are following and obeying God.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Katzpur said:
Why would it do so?

Why would he create another religion?
As far as i know he thought of the Judaism as containing the law of God, and he didn't think of himself as higher than God. So he would stick to it. He had no reason to create a new religion.

Katzpur said:
Okay, I'm curious as to what elements of Judaism it would contain?

Certainly he would still use the Tanakh. Giving new interpretations to the writtings.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Since the founding of the Christian church in the early first millenium, Christianity has splintered into an almost uncountable number of different sects, dialects and beliefs, with wide-ranging ideas on the nature of Christ, the nature of the Church, the authority of the Pope, the means of being saved, the nature of God himself, etc. What I ask of Christians is this: how do you know your sect's beliefs are correct, and others are wrong? Unless you're Roman Catholic (and even that didn't exist until the 3rd-4th century AD with the rise of Constantine), there's no way you can claim that your specific sect was the one Christ himself followed, because most sects arose out of the Protestant Reformation in the 1600s.

So, explain it to me. How do you know your sect is the right one?

The different denominations are a result of humans' variation. They won't blur away what is said about salvation. The Nicere Creek has almost summed everything up. So it boils down to if the Creek makes some sense to you, or not.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Why would he create another religion?
I believe it was to fulfill the promises made from the time of Adam's Fall forward.

As far as i know he thought of the Judaism as containing the law of God, and he didn't think of himself as higher than God. So he would stick to it. He had no reason to create a new religion.

Certainly he would still use the Tanakh. Giving new interpretations to the writtings.
Actually, to some extent I can agree with you (probably not to the extent you'd like, though. You may not be familiar with W.D. Davies, but he was a Welsh congregationalist minister and academic theologian. He once described Mormonism (I'm paraphrasing here) as an attempt to return to Christianity as it was before its Hellenization. Many of the LDS Church's doctrines are very philo-Semitic. We believe that many of the doctrines of early Christianity (especially those dealing with the nature of God) were so greatly changed by Hellenization as to essentially have been lost within the first couple of hundred years after Christ.
 
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Beta

Well-Known Member
As far as history goes I think the religious days are correctly placed but of course you are right about their names.
There are many cycles employed in creation and the structure of everything. There are resonating cycles. There does seem to be one regarding the week as seven days.
It does not really matter what WE call the days.
Fact is the Sabbath was first introduced By God as one of HIS holy and sanctified days and remains such for ever. Man comes along and starts messing with it does not make US right.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
So what?
Why would a spiritual leader have be your father for you to follow him?
Many christians believe Jesus is God, so they are obeying him, and Judaism believes it has the laws of God, so they are also obeying him.
Yes, but like i said above people believe they are following and obeying God.
Yes but the facts are that people BELIEVE one thing but DO another. So how can you call that being obedient ? Scripture doesn't - it makes a difference between believing and doing.
Let's take the sabbath/sunday issue. Two different days. GOD says to keep the sabbath - man says no I will keep sunday. Are you not setting yourself above God ? It is breaking HIS Word and becomes sin to us.
How can people not understand that ? They are without excuse.
Ps; all Catholics call their priest father don't ask me why.
Christians do NOT obey Jesus - HE SAYS SO Luk.6v46.
 
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