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Question for Christians

esmith

Veteran Member
I believe that you do. The reason why I say that Christ is the highest is because I believe that he is involved in all of Gods religions/belief systems in some shape or form. I believe that he is consistently present in the story of this planet. Thats my personal belief.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is one religious sect telling me that I have to believe what they believe. That is something that I find abhorrent in religion. In my opinion there are two religious sects that say that their beliefs are the only correct one.... those of the Christians and Islamic faith. Now I am not say that all members of these sect believe that, it just appears that this is the message that the more vocal of those sects put forth.
 

Blackheart

Active Member
I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is one religious sect telling me that I have to believe what they believe. That is something that I find abhorrent in religion. In my opinion there are two religious sects that say that their beliefs are the only correct one.... those of the Christians and Islamic faith. Now I am not say that all members of these sect believe that, it just appears that this is the message that the more vocal of those sects put forth.

Your very right. And the problem is that if you want to be considered a muslim or a chiristian then you suddenly have to believe everything that they tell you to believe in other wise you are not a good chirstian or a good muslim. This is why I believe that structured religions are controlling to the point that they stiffle your ability to advance your own learning and therefore works against your ability to truely have faith and conviction in what you see as being the truth. I know they invite you to challenge stuff but if in the end you openly disagree then you are not considered one of them.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Read:

[Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV)

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ]

It is clear he never intended on building a new religion. His church would surely use the already existing law.
Now you are confusing the issue.
In one of your posts you said because Jesus was a Jew he would naturally adhere to or teach the jewish religion (or words to that effect).
Now you are quoting the Law of God . If you read Mat.23 you would see that jewish teaching was in great part removed from God's law and therefore Jesus would not uphold jewish teaching but would teach GOD's law correctly. It would be new to his followers who had never heard the truth. Jesus' teaching is not observed by anyone unless they are called to it - his very own church. It is neither all christian nor all jewish.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Then why do you insist that your Christ is the most important? If I do not believe in your Jesus Christ but do believe in God do I not have a good standing with God.
Scripture says no one can come to the Father (God) except by Jesus Christ. Joh.14v6.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Now you are confusing the issue.
In one of your posts you said because Jesus was a Jew he would naturally adhere to or teach the jewish religion (or words to that effect).
Now you are quoting the Law of God . If you read Mat.23 you would see that jewish teaching was in great part removed from God's law and therefore Jesus would not uphold jewish teaching but would teach GOD's law correctly. It would be new to his followers who had never heard the truth. Jesus' teaching is not observed by anyone unless they are called to it - his very own church. It is neither all christian nor all jewish.

I suppose i understand Matt.23 in a different way then. It seems to me that it is about the practices being wrong, not about the religion itself being wrong. It seems to me a text talking about how people had started distorting the religion, instead of using it correctly.

Also, the Judaism is entirely based on the law and prophets. So it is very likely Jesus would build his church based on it. I suppose he would teach a different kind of Judaism, but still Judaism.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Now you are confusing the issue.
In one of your posts you said because Jesus was a Jew he would naturally adhere to or teach the jewish religion (or words to that effect).
Now you are quoting the Law of God . If you read Mat.23 you would see that jewish teaching was in great part removed from God's law and therefore Jesus would not uphold jewish teaching but would teach GOD's law correctly. It would be new to his followers who had never heard the truth. Jesus' teaching is not observed by anyone unless they are called to it - his very own church. It is neither all christian nor all jewish.

So what I understand from your writings is that the teachings in what Christians call the Old Testament are not the laws put forth by God . However, I have always understood that the laws of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) are the Laws of God. Or do you believe that there is a Jewish God and a Christian God?
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
I suppose i understand Matt.23 in a different way then. It seems to me that it is about the practices being wrong, not about the religion itself being wrong. It seems to me a text talking about how people had started distorting the religion, instead of using it correctly.

Also, the Judaism is entirely based on the law and prophets. So it is very likely Jesus would build his church based on it. I suppose he would teach a different kind of Judaism, but still Judaism.
I don't think we see quite eye to eye here.
Jesus built his Church on GOD's law but not as observed by Jews -
If Judaism is based on God's law but not observed according to it what does that make it ? God's law in name only ? Mat.23v3
Do you know that traditional christianity is supposed to be based on Christ but is in reality so in name only ? Luk.6v46
Both these religions only bear a resemblance to GOD /CHRIST but are not the real thing . Both say the right thing but don't do ! Neither are pleasing to God or Christ but will need to change as will ALL earthly religions.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I don't think we see quite eye to eye here.
Jesus built his Church on GOD's law but not as observed by Jews -
If Judaism is based on God's law but not observed according to it what does that make it ? God's law in name only ? Mat.23v3
Do you know that traditional christianity is supposed to be based on Christ but is in reality so in name only ? Luk.6v46
Both these religions only bear a resemblance to GOD /CHRIST but are not the real thing . Both say the right thing but don't do ! Neither are pleasing to God or Christ but will need to change as will ALL earthly religions.

Are we to assume that you live by God's law?
You have yet to put forth what religious tenet you ascribe to.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I don't think we see quite eye to eye here.
Jesus built his Church on GOD's law but not as observed by Jews -

I am afraid i don't understand what you mean here. The Hebrew Bible is full of laws given by GOD. GOD's law.

If Judaism is based on God's law but not observed according to it what does that make it ? God's law in name only ? Mat.23v3

If a Christian becomes a murderer, does he re-defines what it means the term "Christianity"? Surely not. The same is the case in Mat. 23.
The verse is about the practioners , not about the religion itself.

Do you know that traditional christianity is supposed to be based on Christ but is in reality so in name only ? Luk.6v46

Christianity is based on Jesus among other things.
Only the leader of a religion can define it.
Christians can not define by actions what Christianity is.
Only Jesus can.

Both these religions only bear a resemblance to GOD /CHRIST but are not the real thing . Both say the right thing but don't do ! Neither are pleasing to God or Christ but will need to change as will ALL earthly religions.

You are confusing things.
Religions don't say nor do anything. They don't act by themselves.
Religion is "a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."
Once again, the practioners of a religion do not define the religion.
Only the leader can do so.

If your father says "Do X", and you decide to do Y and it goes wrong, can you blame your father? You are blaming the religion ( the father ) for the wrong doing of the practioners ( you/us).
 

AllanV

Active Member
Yes I would certainly agree that a true Christian has to believe all that. But what do you say about the 10 Commandments and God's Holy days ? There is never any mention of these.

In the first instance I was shown a supernatural event in my mind and I believed and realized the Bible is a true work. This happened in about 5 seconds and less intense occurrences continued over 3 years.

Yes, when I first began to go to Church the idea attracted me that a few rules set a standard to be followed. And also the Holy days were events showing salvation etc. Those Churches following such practices were full of sincere people but there was a lack of depth in their conviction. The rebellious nature was apparent.

In comparison to what I had received in the beginning there wasn't a lot of Spirit. When I left it took me me several years to get free because instead of simple spirit lead belief I had become indoctrinated and now thought it was all about those calender events and the commandments. Setting a day for the sabbath burdened the family up and it was not a rest day at all.

All this left me in a very dry place for about 10 years. A fast was started, more for health reasons than anything, but I did pick up the Bible and listened to a Christian radio station. Some of the initial spirit was regained progressively over the days. The fast was eventually continued for three weeks. I had a dream that the fifth angel was about to sound his trumpet. This was 2weeks before Iraq invaded Kuwait. The sixth angel sounds and the four Spirits that bound the great river Euphrates are released to kill a third of mankind. I am not a Bible scholar. This happened before I was completely in the renewed mind.

Over that time I began to get a sense that there were changes within me. Any preachers that were listened to on the radio revealed a hardness off their hearts and couldn't be listened to. The best and most enlightened though was Derek Prince but even he was limited. These changes lead me all the way to a new perfect nature and being powerfully energized in my body, heart and mind. My own flesh nature was covered completely. The conclusions are that the events depicted in the old Testament are actually about the transformation in the mind. Jesus led captivity captive, disarming the powers that bond humans. Every instance was fulfilled in Him.

Modern science is showing the bonding and how it works. It is all to do with chemicals and hormones. Psychology shows that men with deep voices and woman with high voices were thought by others to be more prone to adultery. This involves the hormone estrogen. Everyone is captured in a sensory experience with body language facial expression and voice all clues from out of the mind. These clues stir up a response because there is a similar chemical combination that produces feelings that are read in the mind. These show the inner person. Mind induced brain chemicals and hormones drive every one along in all behavior.

The Churches are no different. The story may be but it is still human bonding. Keeping behavior in check and suppressed by own mental ability is only having some composure at the most. What happens when the pressure comes on and that may just be a pointed remark that is verbally retaliated to or even in thought only.

I know and have been shown that everything we see and live in is relevant to what the scriptures are talking about, but man has turned the scriptures into a religion.
The scriptures are about escaping the kingdom of Satan. This is the active Spirit behind all personality and is in own mind. All mankind is deceived by this power.

There is a way of being transformed in the mind and then the chemicals and hormones are not a key player in responses. These are reduced and then in an act of breaking inwardly in full belief a new perfect nature is revealed and God's spirit indwells powerfully.

I now tend to have the day off on Saturday, doing nothing but just reflecting and trying to keep all own personal things to one side to rest my mind. I pick it up a bit on Sunday. I have to say, my mind is continually on scriptures there is never a let up most other work which is technical is a distraction. General chores are not a bother.
But there is a time of dedication that is required in fasting, prayer and speaking out to experience the renewed mind and be fulled with the spirit of God, the Eternal. From the new perspective there is no law that can be broken.

I would not suggest any one break one of the commandments purposely but the whole answer isn't there but it is in the renewed mind and heart and this is by the power of God.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The Spirit of God gives life.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
So what I understand from your writings is that the teachings in what Christians call the Old Testament are not the laws put forth by God . However, I have always understood that the laws of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) are the Laws of God. Or do you believe that there is a Jewish God and a Christian God?
Of course the laws of our Bible are the laws of God.
But traditional christians do not obey them. They either believe the laws to be for the Jews only or they believe them to be abolished, no longer have to be kept.
What these false beliefs produce is a lawless society so very obvious in out time. We are plagued with criminals and lawless behaviour. Just believing in Jesus does not result in obedience to him. More is required of true christians than just believing Jas.2v19, we must be doers of God's Word Jas.1v22-24.
Traditional christian churches fail to teach that. They call it being legalistic yet the Bible commands it for sin is to break (not keeping) the laws of God.1Joh.3v4.
For me there is only ONE God (of Israel and the Bible) and the same laws for all. But if he is not obeyed HE can not be your God and you are the servant of another ie the god of this world who deceives you 2Cor.4v4.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Are we to assume that you live by God's law?
You have yet to put forth what religious tenet you ascribe to.
I do my best to adhere to the 10 Commandments which were given in the OT and still required in the NT.
I would have thought my religious beliefs were obviously based on the Bible.Please remember that not all the OT laws still apply. Jesus did fulfill some on the cross .
 

AllanV

Active Member
Of course the laws of our Bible are the laws of God.
But traditional christians do not obey them. They either believe the laws to be for the Jews only or they believe them to be abolished, no longer have to be kept.
What these false beliefs produce is a lawless society so very obvious in out time. We are plagued with criminals and lawless behaviour. Just believing in Jesus does not result in obedience to him. More is required of true christians than just believing Jas.2v19, we must be doers of God's Word Jas.1v22-24.
Traditional christian churches fail to teach that. They call it being legalistic yet the Bible commands it for sin is to break (not keeping) the laws of God.1Joh.3v4.
For me there is only ONE God (of Israel and the Bible) and the same laws for all. But if he is not obeyed HE can not be your God and you are the servant of another ie the god of this world who deceives you 2Cor.4v4.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is something that has to happen in the heart and mind that only a new perfect nature is able to do, and this is by God's Spirit.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well yes , I can agree but we don't really know of any other Apostles in the NT do we ?
Well, in addition to Matthias, who was chosen to replace Judas, Luke notes that Barnabas was called an Apostle. Jesus' brother, James, is also referred to by that title.

Christianity is basically ANTI-SABBATH and ANTI-COMMANDMENTS which were/are the foundation of God , eternal.
Let's look at these one at a time. When you say that Christianity is "anti-Sabbath," I am assuming that you are referring to the fact that the followers of Jesus Christ began to meet together on Sundays, following His resurrection. Since this practice began almost immediately, and was instituted by His personally chosen Apostles, I personally believe that it is entirely acceptable to Him. I may attend church on Sunday, instead of on Saturday -- if that is what you are suggesting, but I do set one day a week apart for worship and as a day of rest. I am certainly not "anti-Sabbath."

With respect to Christianity being "anti-commandments," I'm not sure I even know what you're talking about. My Church teaches us, from the time we are about three years old on, that it is extremely important to our Father in Heaven that we keep His commandments.

When the foundation is faulty everything else is wrong and will not endure.
I can go along with that, which is why I believe Jesus Christ had to re-establish His Church. The foundation upon which it was built crumbled within a hundred years or so of His death.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The Bible definition of faith
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith, or is that belief and talking out, is required to make a transformation from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar and can't be comprehended from the present viewpoint.
I know what faith is, Allan. Millions of people today have faith and yet cannot agree on the most basic Christian doctrines.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
I am afraid i don't understand what you mean here. The Hebrew Bible is full of laws given by GOD. GOD's lawIf a Christian becomes a murderer, does he re-defines what it means the term "Christianity"? Surely not. The same is the case in Mat. 23.
The verse is about the practioners , not about the religion itself.
Christianity is based on Jesus among other things.
Only the leader of a religion can define it.
Christians can not define by actions what Christianity is.
Only Jesus can.
You are confusing things.
Religions don't say nor do anything. They don't act by themselves.
Religion is "a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."
Once again, the practioners of a religion do not define the religion.
Only the leader can do so.
If your father says "Do X", and you decide to do Y and it goes wrong, can you blame your father? You are blaming the religion ( the father ) for the wrong doing of the practioners ( you/us).
But religious leaders are not our spiritual fathers in the truest sense.(the Bible says call no man your father except your natural one).
GOD is our true spiritual Father and we must do what HE says not men on earth.
No one is compelled to follow or obey a religious leader. If people do and it turns out to be wrong they can only blame themselves and not their leader. It's called taking responsibility for YOUR OWN actions and choices and God will hold them to account.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
To follow any church is a mistake because our churches are man made and therefore subject to imperfection.
What about the Church Jesus Christ established? Was it a mistake for His followers to follow the doctrines taught by His Church? Or are you speaking of the churches in existance today specifically?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
That is the problem with a majority of the Christian faith: if they can not give a concise answer and just deflect it with a non-meaningful statement.
What's the problem here? It was after 10:00 last night when I posted. Just because I didn't explain my position to your satisfaction is no reason to imply that I am unable to or that I was attempting to change the subject. I would be happy to explore the subject in more depth, provided you can refrain in the future from the put-downs.

If you can not tell me what faith the NT Jesus was teaching please say that you do not know or not sure.
Jesus Christ was teaching His own gospel. One of the many reasons He came to earth was to do so.

One question, do you believe that the Jesus of the NT was Jewish?
I absolutely believe that He was born Jewish, but all that really means is that His mother was Jewish. It is entirely possible for a person to be ethnically Jewish but to embrace any other religion or no religion at all. I personally know Jews who are atheists and Jews who are Mormons.

I'll respond to the argument made against apostolic succession in the link you provided in a separate post, as it will require a more in-depth response than I can give you in a could of quick sentences.
 
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