What happens to us when we die, what is the afterlife?

[YmirGF]

I appreciate the response.

Should you?

Well my observation of your posts (these and others) is that your beliefs are very much aligned with Walsch's, to the point where it's almost exact. In fact, you'd probably be surprised at how much I understand your beliefs, because I'm already highly familiar with them. I'm sure there must be some differences, but I haven't detected any yet. I thought I detected one difference, but your recent post may have removed that difference.

Hmmm. I suppose I could look him up if I am bored, lol. I checked out his Wiki entry and wasn't too moved to research him much more.

Well, if you believe in something akin to a god, then it somewhat mitigates the question of complexity.

I have to stop you there. I adamantly refuse to describe this "something" as being god. You MUST understand that. I don't know what it is. From my perspective it is more akin to background radiation.

What do you make of the fact that science shows that our consciousness, thought, memories, and personality are dependent on the brain? If someone has a stroke and damages part of the brain, their personality can change. A knock to the head can erase memories. Consciousness can be temporarily or permanently destroyed even when the physical body is kept alive (coma, brain dead, etc.). In fact, due to this, the moment of true "death" isn't really even certain, since it's a failure of a very complex system through several gray phases. A person's ability to think is dependent on certain parts of the brain. They're even fairly knowledgeable about which parts of the brain play a role in different tasks.

The only thing that strikes me, off the top of my head, is that the brain is like a very complex receptacle. If it is damaged in any way, the corresponding filters will not function properly. Think of it like trying to fit a plug into a damaged wall socket. You could well end up blowing a fuse.

If we are not our physical body, then why would this be the case? And "what" is it that, upon death, continues living, if it's been shown that consciousness, thought, memories, and personality are all emergent properties of the physical brain? Do you have scientific knowledge or evidence that disagrees with this view?

No, however I do realize that these sciences are still young and for me that does give some hope. My view is that science is look at the smoke without recognizing the gun. Hopefully that will change, eventually.

You said the former physical self is reunited with the inner self, so I was attempting to clarify what you meant. I wasn't sure if you meant our fleshy body is involved or not.

Great. No matter.

So if people experience this, why would they be attached to physical existence and want to go back?

My thinking is that this physical environment is somewhat unique and offers opportunities to flesh out understanding in ways that are quite impossible to otherwise achieve.

I understand that experiencing a certain degree of suffering or despair would be worthwhile for development, but the magnitude that people go through doesn't make sense. Can one truly say that they want what they are experiencing?

You have to appreciate the unpredictable "crap shoot" side to this. To my thinking, an entity can plan till the cows come home, but upon incarnation into the physical, that planning get forced through something like an uncertainty algorithm. There is no way to predict precisely how and where the chips will fall.

I mean, there are some forms of agony on this planet that are just too terrible to even imagine. Why would anyone go through it, and what lessons could it teach that were not already extremely obvious? And even if someone went through it, there would be no way they would do it again.

Perhaps, but even in the agony there are moments, however brief, of sweetness.

For instance, here's a case where a French woman developed a rare form of cancer that involved a tumor on her face. Over eight years, it got worse and worse, until it deformed her face so badly that she lost the senses of sight, smell, and taste. Worse yet, the pressure caused her left eyeball to pop out, and it remains bloody and hanging out all of the time, and she is always in severe pain. She requested euthanasia but was denied, and eventually took matters into her own hands.
Source, with picture, from a news agency:
French Woman Who Sought Euthanasia Dies - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News - FOXNews.com

I really don't pretend to have all the answers, Penumbra. My understanding is that some entities simply have more dramatic flare than most others. What was the point of her illness? I don't know. Ask her. My guess is that it had something to do with her self-image though. You will have to forgive me though, I don't spend much time thinking about such things. Health and illness are not a large part of my focus.

 

[doppelganger]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

Yes, and there's a rather large and growing body of neurological research behind why. It's predictable and can be, under very careful experiments, triggered artificially, by manipulating brain function or chemistry.

"Spiritual Doorway in the Brain": The science of near-death experiences - Our Picks: Books - Salon.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience

 

[Penumbra]

Hmmm. I suppose I could look him up if I am bored, lol. I checked out his Wiki entry and wasn't too moved to research him much more.

I personally assume he's a money-hungry con-man who writes a lot of stories that make people feel good and buy his stuff.

But, I'm mentioning it because your beliefs are very, very close to his (except the money-hungry con-man part, I assume ).

I have to stop you there. I adamantly refuse to describe this "something" as being god. You MUST understand that. I don't know what it is. From my perspective it is more akin to background radiation.

Then if it's not a god, I must ask the question again.

If it's akin to background radiation, then why is it centered and organized around humans? Why does it "care"? For instance, the real background radiation just "is". It's simple.

Cosmologists, biologists, geologists, and so forth, have fairly well-researched explanations for how the universe got from point A to point B, from simplicity to complexity. Do you have a similar explanation for how your metaphysical framework organized itself as such?

The only thing that strikes me, off the top of my head, is that the brain is like a very complex receptacle. If it is damaged in any way, the corresponding filters will not function properly. Think of it like trying to fit a plug into a damaged wall socket. You could well end up blowing a fuse.

No, however I do realize that these sciences are still young and for me that does give some hope. My view is that science is look at the smoke without recognizing the gun. Hopefully that will change, eventually.

And is this idea falsifiable in theory, or no? I've seen this explanation put forth before, and it has some merit, but has no evidence as far as I can see, nor would it be falsifiable even if it was wrong.

Physical things are observed to exist without consciousness (rocks, plastic, a dead person's brain, etc.). Consciousness is not scientifically observed to exist without physical things (so ghosts and angels may be claimed, but are not verified). Some physical things give rise to consciousness (ie a human brain). If the physical things are damaged, their ability to support consciousness is compromised.

In addition, consciousness, personality, and the ability to think develops along with the physical brain. As the brain makes more connections and acquires memories, consciousness and personality change. If this process is halted, such as through damage, then the development of consciousness, intelligence, personality, and memories can be compromised.

My thinking is that this physical environment is somewhat unique and offers opportunities to flesh out understanding in ways that are quite impossible to otherwise achieve.

You have to appreciate the unpredictable "crap shoot" side to this. To my thinking, an entity can plan till the cows come home, but upon incarnation into the physical, that planning get forced through something like an uncertainty algorithm. There is no way to predict precisely how and where the chips will fall.

Doesn't sound like it's worth the risk, then.

If I existed in such a condition where I could manifest whatever I want about myself, why would I enter a physical body that has all sorts of limitations, and furthermore, that I can't really even control. I could end up being born just to starve to death, or be killed by disease. Or I could make it further and die and suffer of some horrible cause. And even if I am one of the ones that make it through without much suffering, then it seems it would still be significantly less interesting than the aforementioned purely spiritual state. And even if I were to make the decision to enter a physical body, surely I wouldn't do it more than once or a few times.

Perhaps, but even in the agony there are moments, however brief, of sweetness.

If someone was currently being tortured, such as having their arm cut off slowly, or having their knee caps repeatedly drilled through, or having their eyeballs scooped out, do you think they would have brief moments of sweetness in there? Or a person dying in a fire by burning? Or being eaten by a bear? Or having a hurricane strike a house and kill one's children? Or what about that woman who has a tumor on her face which caused her to be blind and unable to taste or smell, and has a painful, bloody eyeball hanging out of her face? She specifically wanted to die.

I don't think I can honestly accept that during these scenarios, they experience moments of sweetness.

I really don't pretend to have all the answers, Penumbra. My understanding is that some entities simply have more dramatic flare than most others. What was the point of her illness? I don't know. Ask her. My guess is that it had something to do with her self-image though. You will have to forgive me though, I don't spend much time thinking about such things. Health and illness are not a large part of my focus.

I'm not expecting you to have all the answers; I'm just studying your belief system (with your help of course ).

 

[Koldo]

YmirGF, would it be accurate to say that you support the idea of reincarnation but without the need of a God?

Doesn't sound like it's worth the risk, then.

If I existed in such a condition where I could manifest whatever I want about myself, why would I enter a physical body that has all sorts of limitations, and furthermore, that I can't really even control. I could end up being born just to starve to death, or be killed by disease. Or I could make it further and die and suffer of some horrible cause. And even if I am one of the ones that make it through without much suffering, then it seems it would still be significantly less interesting than the aforementioned purely spiritual state. And even if I were to make the decision to enter a physical body, surely I wouldn't do it more than once or a few times.

That is if you see the purely spiritual state as being static. However if you see it as in being in a constant need for development then you can fit the idea just nicely.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Some people could believe in ghosts without a god. They could be atheists but still believe in those lesser supernatural beings even though I personally cannot believe in them. I have seen any decent evidence or any logical argument to convince me of their existence as yet.

 

[Penumbra]

That is if you see the purely spiritual state as being static. However if you see it as in being in a constant need for development then you can fit the idea just nicely.

But the ability to develop in physical form must be limited. There are only so many aspects to develop here.

So it would end up being a rather dark existence. One can exist in the physical world, with all of the risks, disappointments, pain, and sometimes joy, or they can exist in the spiritual realm but crave some sort of physical development.

It's like running on a treadmill, no?

 

[Koldo]

There is , for a matter of fact, more evidence for the existence of ghosts/spirits than evidence for the existence of God.

 

[Koldo]

But the ability to develop in physical form must be limited. There are only so many aspects to develop here.

So it would end up being a rather dark existence. One can exist in the physical world, with all of the risks, disappointments, pain, and sometimes joy, or they can exist in the spiritual realm but crave some sort of physical development.

It's like running on a treadmill, no?

It is surely limited.

Please do tell me if i understood something wrongly in the next lines.

You are saying that it would be a treadmill because we would never reach anywhere even if we take the physical form, is that it? Because we are limited as to how much we can acquire in this existence anyway, so even if we do live in physical forms we will never improve in condition.
It would be like trading a cup of poison for another cup of poison, correct?

It seems to me that you see the spirit as being in a static form, but such is not the case.

What i believe is that we don't develop THE physical form, rather we develop the spirit IN the physical form.When you live a certain life you are improving your spiritual life. Although it may be the case that our multiple physical lives never improve , our spiritual life do. As a matter of fact i also believe in the existence of life in multiple planets, whereas we can progress to them after reaching a certain degree of evolution, and in some of them our physical form IS better than our current ones.

Nonetheless, the physical form should be seen as a college. Our ultimate aim is not to get into college, but rather to get through it. We want not to make our physical lives perfect, but rather our spiritual life perfect.

 

[Penumbra]

It is surely limited.

Please do tell me if i understood something wrongly in the next lines.

You are saying that it would be a treadmill because we would never reach anywhere even if we take the physical form, is that it? Because we are limited as to how much we can acquire in this existence anyway, so even if we do live in physical forms we will never improve in condition.
It would be like trading a cup of poison for another cup of poison, correct?

It seems to me that you see the spirit as being in a static form, but such is not the case.

What i believe is that we don't develop THE physical form, rather we develop the spirit IN the physical form.

I wasn't talking about developing the physical form. I was talking about development in general, specifically personality and whatnot.
-Development of knowledge.
-Development of experience.
-Development of virtue.
-etc.

When I asked YmirGF if he expects this to continue eternally, with people living, dying, resting, and re-entering a physical body, he said "pretty much". But then added that his delusion is that new options arise. So I'm not really sure what he meant.

If it's the case that when a person is in spirit form, they crave development, but when they are in physical form, they are experiencing a lot of difficulty and discontent or in the worst case, experiencing tremendous suffering, then it seems rather bleak. As you put it, one can choose a cup of poison or a cup of poison. Physical existence surely isn't satisfying enough to sustain an eternity of experiencing it contently. A repetitious cycle lasting for eternity is rather hellish, is it not?

When you live a certain life you are improving your spiritual life. Although it may be the case that our multiple physical lives never improve , our spiritual life do.

But what's the purpose of developing the spiritual life if all the spiritual life does is crave physical form so that it can develop some more?

As a matter of fact i also believe in the existence of life in multiple planets, whereas we can progress to them after reaching a certain degree of evolution, and in some of them our physical form IS better than our current ones.

In what way is it better?

Nonetheless, the physical form should be seen as a college. Our ultimate aim is not to get into college, but rather to get through it. We want not to make our physical lives perfect, but rather our spiritual life perfect.

To what end? For what reason?

How can a repetitious cycle be looked at as a college? It would be like studying for a job you never get, because you're studying for eternity.

 

[Koldo]

I wasn't talking about developing the physical form. I was talking about development in general, specifically personality and whatnot.
-Development of knowledge.
-Development of experience.
-Development of virtue.
-etc.

When I asked YmirGF if he expects this to continue eternally, with people living, dying, resting, and re-entering a physical body, he said "pretty much". But then added that his delusion is that new options arise. So I'm not really sure what he meant.

If it's the case that when a person is in spirit form, they crave development, but when they are in physical form, they are experiencing a lot of difficulty and discontent or in the worst case, experiencing tremendous suffering, then it seems rather bleak. As you put it, one can choose a cup of poison or a cup of poison. Physical existence surely isn't satisfying enough to sustain an eternity of experiencing it contently. A repetitious cycle lasting for eternity is rather hellish, is it not?

But what's the purpose of developing the spiritual life if all the spiritual life does is crave physical form so that it can develop some more?

To what end? For what reason?

How can a repetitious cycle be looked at as a college? It would be like studying for a job you never get, because you're studying for eternity.

My opinion seems to differ from YmirGF on this.

In my opinion, the development is eternal but not the reincarnation. After you reach a certain point of evolution you won't need to reincarnate anymore. You may still keep developing at the spiritual form though.

In what way is it better?

A more evolved society, and less suffering , for example.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

There is , for a matter of fact, more evidence for the existence of ghosts/spirits than evidence for the existence of God.

I don't believe in ghosts personally but unlike God at least if one is setting out to prove or disprove their existence they have a far better idea a what to look for and where to look, which is quite unlike God.

 

[YmirGF]

I personally assume he's a money-hungry con-man who writes a lot of stories that make people feel good and buy his stuff.

But, I'm mentioning it because your beliefs are very, very close to his (except the money-hungry con-man part, I assume ).

Well, I don't need the money, so that would not be my motive, lol.

Then if it's not a god, I must ask the question again.

If it's akin to background radiation, then why is it centered and organized around humans? Why does it "care"? For instance, the real background radiation just "is". It's simple.

It just "IS". I don't pretend to be able to tell if it actually cares. I don't see it as being centered around human animals, more so, and anything else. It just "is". As to what it is and why it is. Give me a few more years to wrestle it to the ground. At this point, though it does seem to be all-pervasive, I am not inclined to label it god.

Cosmologists, biologists, geologists, and so forth, have fairly well-researched explanations for how the universe got from point A to point B, from simplicity to complexity. Do you have a similar explanation for how your metaphysical framework organized itself as such?

You don't want much, do you? I have hunches and suspicions, but little that is set in stone. It's a work in progress, as it were. So far my view is reliant on string theory and a modified variation of the Big Bang. M-theory also looks promising... So far, I am quite comfortable to leave such question to the bona fide theorists.

Physical things are observed to exist without consciousness (rocks, plastic, a dead person's brain, etc.). Consciousness is not scientifically observed to exist without physical things (so ghosts and angels may be claimed, but are not verified). Some physical things give rise to consciousness (ie a human brain). If the physical things are damaged, their ability to support consciousness is compromised.

In addition, consciousness, personality, and the ability to think develops along with the physical brain. As the brain makes more connections and acquires memories, consciousness and personality change. If this process is halted, such as through damage, then the development of consciousness, intelligence, personality, and memories can be compromised.

Here I keep thinking back to an organic light bulb and socket scenario. The "socket" needs to grow to maturity to perform effectively. Anything that stunts that growth will automatically limit the usefulness of the bulb. Again, I see the brain as a very complex receptacle. If it is not formed correctly or is damaged in any way, the output will be compromised.

Doesn't sound like it's worth the risk, then.

I do tend to agree. It IS risky.

If I existed in such a condition where I could manifest whatever I want about myself, why would I enter a physical body that has all sorts of limitations, and furthermore, that I can't really even control. I could end up being born just to starve to death, or be killed by disease. Or I could make it further and die and suffer of some horrible cause. And even if I am one of the ones that make it through without much suffering, then it seems it would still be significantly less interesting than the aforementioned purely spiritual state. And even if I were to make the decision to enter a physical body, surely I wouldn't do it more than once or a few times.

I don't believe it is as simple as that, it's an evolving process. Once one decides to enter the physical system one is committed to the long haul. Part of the reason for entering the system is to block off areas of personality in order to experience reality in highly focused ways. If we were aware of those areas of personality on a continued basis, physical focus would lose its continuity. One reason for doing this is to experience the meaning behind the ideas... to flesh them out in indelible ways. In that sense, every action you perform has meaning and directly affects your reality.

I don't think I can honestly accept that during these scenarios, they experience moments of sweetness.

That is hardly what I meant. What I meant was that each person in such cases has had other moments of sweetness, if you will. I certainly wasn't referring to them enjoying a particular trauma. That would be more than a little weird. It's the juxtaposition of the experience. For example, for someone who was enslaved or unjustly imprisoned, to be set free, would be quite stunning and they would savor those brief moments of freedom for the rest of their lives. With they equal the years of persecution? Not likely, but they would understand CLEARLY both the loss and gain of personal freedom. That is the sort of thing I am meaning.

I'm not expecting you to have all the answers; I'm just studying your belief system (with your help of course ).

Well, as long as you don't assume that the aforementioned author and I share identical views, we should do fine. Who knows, maybe that fellow has been "channeling" me for years... :drool:

 

[YmirGF]

YmirGF, would it be accurate to say that you support the idea of reincarnation but without the need of a God?

You would be correct. Primitive "god" concepts have no bearing on the "process" of personal enrichment also known as reincarnation. Do not assume I am using a standard model of reincarnation as given in Hindu lore, lol.

 

[Ben Masada]

What happens to us when we die? The body goes back to the dust where it came from and the breath of life (or spirit) goes back to God Who gave it. (Eccl. 12:7) IMHO, there is no after life, as there was none prior to it. We don't worry about previous life because we have no conscience that there was one. We worry now about an afterlife due to culture, superstitious beliefs, false eachings and fear of death.

 

[Ben Masada]

Some people could believe in ghosts without a god. They could be atheists but still believe in those lesser supernatural beings even though I personally cannot believe in them. I have seen any decent evidence or any logical argument to convince me of their existence as yet.

You are right. ghosts are simply superstitious emanations in the mind of People.

 

[Mike214]

What happens to us when we die? The body goes back to the dust where it came from and the breath of life (or spirit) goes back to God Who gave it. (Eccl. 12:7) IMHO, there is no after life, as there was none prior to it. We don't worry about previous life because we have no conscience that there was one. We worry now about an afterlife due to culture, superstitious beliefs, false eachings and fear of death.

So you don't have soul ?

 

[diosangpastol]

There's this saying: You've been dead for an eternity until the time you were born. You only have this short pause of life to live, so why so fascinated with death? When you have all of eternity when you return to un-life and just this short moment to live.

I forgot the exact phrase.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't look forward to anything.

 

[DoctorAnswerMan]

Death I believe is death. Cessation of life. Electricity off, lights go out. I believe that the many 'near death' experiences, the 'went to the other side and came back' experiences are very similar to that which one may experience as a result of oxygen deprivation. Combine that with the medication that many such ones may be taking at the time as well and the recipe is there. When one dies, one is dead. Whether or not there is a hope for life after death is a different matter, but i do not believe in any instant transformations - at least not for the most of us anyway....

 

[jaareshiah]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

Some "Near Death Experiences" maybe what is also called "Out of Body Experiences", in which individuals feel that they have died, but can then see themselves from "above". A Neurobiology article a few years ago stated this:

OBEs are brief sensations that occur when a person feels as if his mind separates from his body. During OBEs, people sense that they are floating above their own bodies. No one knows what causes OBEs, but some people believe that OBEs are religious or spiritual events. Interestingly, many people who have come close to death report that they have had an OBE

Researchers from the University Hospitals of Geneva and Lausanne (Switzerland) have found that OBEs can be produced by direct electrical stimulation of a specific part of the brain. Dr. Olaf Blanke and his colleagues worked with a 43-year-old female patient who suffered from right temporal lobe epilepsy. In order to identify the location where the seizures occurred, the researchers implanted electrodes on the brain under the patient's dura. While the patient was awake, the researchers could pass electrical current through the electrodes to identify the function of the brain area under each electrode.

Electrical stimulation of the angular gyrus on the right side of the patient's brain produced unusual sensations. Weak stimulation caused the patient to feel as if she was "sinking into the bed" or "falling from a height." Stronger electrical stimulation caused the patient to have an OBE.

For example, the patient said, "I see myself lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs and lower trunk." Stimulation of the angular gyrus at other times caused the woman to have feelings of "lightness" and of "floating" two meters above the bed

The angular gyrus is located near the vestibular (balance) area of the cerebral cortex. It is likely that electrical stimulation of the angular gyrus interrupts the ability of the brain to make sense of information related to balance and touch. This interruption may result in OBEs. Blood flow changes within the angular gyrus may alter brain activity during "near death experiences." This may result in OBEs reported by people who survive such events.

How complex and well-made the human mind is by our Creator, Jehovah God. It was designed to provide us with the full use of all our senses forever on a paradise earth (Ps 37:29; Luke 23:43), with never a worry about "near death experiences", for death will be completely eradicated from the earth, being thrown into the symbolic "lake of fire".(Rev 20:14)