i'm sorry but this circular logic...
god "said"...
"then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."
meaning, united they stand divided they fall...
Circular logic? As far as I can tell, my statement never relied on its own proposition, but perhaps I'm missing something.
I think that we should narrow your idea down even further to something more like: united, their plan will be achieved; divided, their plan will not be achieved. They were not a threat to God, but a threat to humanity, His creation. A Christian believes that nothing threatens God. He scattered them because he cared for them.
oh i see, so the human spirit should be demoralized and undermined...
come to think of it god really doesn't have any faith in his creation, a common thread in the bible.
if you look at our psychology, in order to feel confident we need to be encouraged and we need to feel a sense of inner faith of ones own.
guess the god of the bible doesn't understand how our brain is wired
"unity in purpose"...what's to be afraid of?
you and i both know there was nothing to be found in the "heavens"
Debating 101: Never place words in your opponent's mouth. He or she will always call you on it. Why should the human spirit be demoralized and undermined? I never said that, so I'm assuming you have some explanation for why you believe that. Hopefully, we can agree that pride is generally a negative emotion. The people were essentially building this great tower to make themselves look good when they were supposed to be giving God the glory. The lesson still applies to the "towers" in our own life. How many Christians try to build themselves up when they should be building God up?
Of course He doesn't have any faith in us. We suck at everything He tells us to do. xD The Bible explains in countless places that no one can do anything to actually be worthy of God. Why should he have faith in a creation that has been screwing up from the beginning?
Confidence in oneself is prideful. We are supposed to have confidence in God, not confidence in ourselves. In everything that I do, I try to give God the glory. I don't always. I am insanely arrogant about most things actually. Surprise.
But the lesson applies to those types of things. The consequences of putting faith in yourself instead of faith in the Lord.
As far as your point about their being nothing for the people to find in the heavens, that's my precise point. God realized exactly what we realize; that the people's venture to build a tower to Heaven was totally fruitless. He did them a favor by stopping that one in it's tracks. Going to your psychological point about confidence, how confident would the group have felt if they built a tower to the heavens, realized it was for naught, and all had disgusting inbred children as a result of not spreading out across the world? :no: They would have felt very silly indeed.
pure speculation...
seems to me the god of the bible is hostile against humanity and reverts to tyrannical manipulation to maintain a celestial dictatorship
you are right pride does come before a fall, and the ideal of god is going to spiral down into oblivion...at least that's my hope.
Tehe, you accuse me of speculating and yet you provide no evidence for God being hostile and tyrannical and dictatorlike. The way I see it, God does what He
knows is in our best interests. You have yet to disprove that. As for your metaphor for pride and God spiraling into oblivion, I really have no idea what you're talking about. Feel free to elaborate.
well lets look at the time of these people. they were ignorant times. had we known then what we know now we wouldn't need to make up a superstition to answer the mysteries that have been solved thus far.
we know why we have disease, we know we are made of star dust,
we know why there are earthquakes and severe weather.
and as far as i can tell, the reason religious dogma has been preserved is because of traditional views that oppose change.
Let's explore this, shall we? Though the dates for the building of the Tower of Babel range from 2200 BC to 950 BC, a date I find favorable after reading numerous articles on this subject is around 2241 BC. What were the people like at the time? Anything but ignorant. At this time in history, humans were traveling from place to place to herd animals, trade wares, and make new homes. Horses had been tamed and were widely used for transports. Great palaces were being completed all over the world, most notable in Crete. All kinds of jewelry was created from precious metals and worn, especially earrings, which were highly popular at this time. Written languages had been in existence for decades, and glass had just been created. And the very people you dismiss as "ignorant" were busy building complex ziggurats. In fact, most archaeologists agree that the Tower of Babel was actually a ziggurat.
They were superstitious, sure. So are people today. You're a cynic, I get that, but not everyone is. Just because they were, as you put it, "superstitious" does not mean they were ignorant. Only different and the product of their times.
It was into this atmosphere of new and exciting creations and accomplishments that the people of Babel decided to build a great tribute to themselves. And it was that idea that God rejected.
Poisonshady313 said:
I seem to remember a verse somewhere about Jesus telling his disciples to carry swords, even if they had to sell the clothes from their backs to do so. If you really want me to, I'll go and dig it up.
No need. Uravip2me cited the verse, and here it is in its entirety:
35 Then Jesus asked them, When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?
Nothing, they answered.
36 He said to them, But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you dont have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: And he was numbered with the transgressors[a]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.
38 The disciples said, See, Lord, here are two swords.
Thats enough! he replied.
Again, I see a metaphorical sword. What use would the disciples have for a real one? They have no history of violence, either. A sword was, and still is, a sign of bravery and valor. The disciples took the Word of God as their sword, and bravely faced a world that truly did not want to accept it. They wielded the Word, so to speak. Christ often spoke in extended metaphors. His parables are prime examples of this. It often seemed easier for his disciples to understand than if he just straight up said "Take my words and go teach people." I mean, that doesn't even sound poetic either.
Not nearly as good.
The fact is, everytime Jesus actually had the opportunity to commit violence, or encourage his disciples to commit violence, he always did the very opposite. When he was arrested, he healed the man his disciple actually attacked with a sword. When he was beaten and cursed at, he did nothing. He was the ultimate man of peace.
That's a shame. Judaism is all about unity. We're currently in exile, and we pray constantly to be reUNITED in the land of Israel.... for the in gathering of the exiles (Isaiah 11). We're very family oriented. And if you take a look at Ezekiel 18, it's clear that God would prefer that people doing the wrong thing would turn from their ways and do what's right, instead of being cut off.
Indeed, but that might not be true for someone who converted to Judaism. Someone from a Muslim family who decided to convert would still find himself separated, cut off from, and divided from his family. The same could go for a former Christian. Yet I would never argue that indicates Judaism is not an inherently peaceful religion. Using that logic, almost any belief system would be considered divisive. Sure, Jesus caused controversy and uproar among the Jews of the time. Some converted, and some did not. But that does not mean Jesus wasn't peaceful. Especially compared to several of the radical groups at the time, Christ's methods were incredibly peaceful.