Assassination of Muslim Minds

[Bismillah]

I provided a link to a NY Times article that says American/Israeli gov't are allegedly deliberately attempting to lure Iran scientists to defect (supposedly called Project Braindrain).

If true, that's at least evidence that certain scientists are indeed under the spotlight of foreign powers.

It's already true that Iran suffers from massive natural braindrain. Wikipedia said as many as ~150,000 Iranians leave every year, ~25% with post-secondary educations. The reasons given are because of the "tight job market" and "strict social codes imposed by the Islamic government."

There was a pretty important scientist who apparently defected to the U.S not to long ago and Iran called it a kidnapping. Not sure which is more likely since the man had been working in Iran his entire life.

There is undeniably a correlation between more education and less religiosity worldwide, so the extreme social conservatism of Islamic countries may contribute to a lot of their own brain drain.

Correlation does not mean causation and Iran has a large percentage of its youth that attend secondary education. If I remember correctly something like 60% of all students were women so it manages to include both genders as well, though you may say in spite of religion.

 

[Meow Mix]

Not at all only those mentioned in the OP. Iran's scientists have been killed periodically to limit its nuclear research progression by Mossad. You find this ok? Its ok that they only kill six but if they kill twenty they are wrong? The act initself is a casus belli for war.

I agree that it's wrong and an act of war (hopefully it doesn't come to war though). I'm not comfortable with nukes in the hand of a nutcase like Ahmedinejad and his masters but assassinating scientists is not the solution.

 

[Meow Mix]

Correlation does not mean causation and Iran has a large percentage of its youth that attend secondary education. If I remember correctly something like 60% of all students were women so it manages to include both genders as well, though you may say in spite of religion.

This is true, but according to some of those who've left (not sure how many of them though) the conservative climate was a contributing factor to them leaving.

 

[Bismillah]

Assassinating scientists only serves to ensure the hardliner rhetoric of Iran will remain in power.

It's like Fidel and Cuba. The people will want a tyrant in the face of a larger threat always.

 

[Bismillah]

This is true, but according to some of those who've left (not sure how many of them though) the conservative climate was a contributing factor to them leaving.

More or less the greatest prompter for a man who has worked a third of his life to obtain a degree is that there are no jobs to be found in a country that is internationally shunned. Of course he will travel to the country that offers him high incentives for his work, I'm sure the government has such programs to tempt Iran's educated generation to leave their home country.

Also centuries back in the same place the Muslims who were at the time who were the leaders in Chemistry, Astrology etc. etc. were often times widely reputed Islamic scholars and fond of writing poetry of Islam. Religiosity really is irrelevant and only concerned with the short term picture.

 

[Meow Mix]

More or less the greatest prompter for a man who has worked a third of his life to obtain a degree is that there are no jobs to be found in a country that is internationally shunned. Of course he will travel to the country that offers him high incentives for his work, I'm sure the government has such programs to tempt Iran's educated generation to leave their home country.

Also centuries back in the same place the Muslims who were at the time who were the leaders in Chemistry, Astrology etc. etc. were often times widely reputed Islamic scholars and fond of writing poetry of Islam. Religiosity really is irrelevant and only concerned with the short term picture.

Yeah, I understand that the Muslims world was once the epicenter of the sciences -- but were they as extreme back then?

Arguably America is a nation of mostly Christians, but they're not extreme so there's not this oppressive atmosphere of "oh if I do or say something that someone else doesn't like they're going to kill me."

 

[Bismillah]

What do you mean? In a sharia country I don't think any Muslim would go forth and express ideas that would get him in trouble...it's like asking whether there would be riots against the Pope in the Vatican. The entire society of America is radically different from a Sharia one.

 

[Meow Mix]

What do you mean? In a sharia country I don't think any Muslim would go forth and express ideas that would get him in trouble...it's like asking whether there would be riots against the Pope in the Vatican. The entire society of America is radically different from a Sharia one.

The sciences tend to clash with peoples' interpretations of their religion though.

Consider a biologist in a Muslim country who becomes convinced by the evidence for evolution. Does he dare speak about it out loud? Something tells me probably not. That person's probably getting a one-way plane ticket to a country where they wouldn't be ostracized or attacked for interpreting the religion a little differently.

I'm not saying it's in the nature of Islam to be so extreme, but it is a reality that a lot of people in a lot of Muslim-majority countries are extreme, even dangerous with some individuals. Interpreting Islam differently to allow for evolution can be just as dangerous in some countries today as doing so would be dangerous in Inquisition era Europe.

 

[Bismillah]

Consider a biologist in a Muslim country who becomes convinced by the evidence for evolution. Does he dare speak about it out loud? Something tells me probably not. That person's probably getting a one-way plane ticket to a country where they wouldn't be ostracized or attacked for interpreting the religion a little differently.

But I don't understand why evolution even contradicts with Islam should the Biologist be given such reason.

Regardless, the community assures the nonbeliever their rights to life and the right to speech. Indeed we are encouraged to not suppress and persecute these individuals but embrace them and emoblden them to join our faith.

 

[Meow Mix]

But I don't understand why evolution even contradicts with Islam should the Biologist be given such reason.

Regardless, the community assures the nonbeliever their rights to life and the right to speech. Indeed we are encouraged to not suppress and persecute these individuals but embrace them and emoblden them to join our faith.

Maybe in the ideal version of Shari'a, and if so, that's not so bad.

But the real world shows us that most Muslim majority countries aren't interested whatsoever in assuring nonbelievers rights of many kinds at all.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Google

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This is in Turkish?! :thud: I tried to translate the first link but the translation is very difficult to understand....

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Not at all only those mentioned in the OP. Iran's scientists have been killed periodically to limit its nuclear research progression by Mossad. You find this ok? Its ok that they only kill six but if they kill twenty they are wrong? The act initself is a casus belli for war.

Right, I was talking about those cases mentioned "so far". Can you list other cases?

No, I do not find it okay. I'm just recalling the thesis of the OP, that the assassination of Muslim scientists helps explain the "decline of Muslims contribution to modern science". We only have 6 examples as evidence to support this thesis so far, and they were all nuclear scientists. This helps explain the lack of advanced nuclear research, certainly.

 

[Bismillah]

But the real world shows us that most Muslim majority countries aren't interested whatsoever in assuring nonbelievers rights of many kinds at all

They also show that they aren't interested whatsoever in assuring believers rights of many kinds as well!

 

[Meow Mix]

They also show that they aren't interested whatsoever in assuring believers rights of many kinds as well!

Granted.

May it hopefully come to pass that these nations and their peoples adopt a reasonable system like the one you have expounded on!

 

[kai]

Not at all only those mentioned in the OP. Iran's scientists have been killed periodically to limit its nuclear research progression by Mossad. You find this ok? Its ok that they only kill six but if they kill twenty they are wrong? The act initself is a casus belli for war.

so is Iranian support for Hezbollah and Hamas, so is Iranian support for shia insurgency in Iraq and the Taliban . You cant be a a player in international espionage and then complain about the game.If Israel is assasinating Iranian scientists ( and i beleive they probably are) then what to do? maybe stop playing the political hegemony game and start acting like responsible adults and sort out thier own country instead of trying to be the biggest kid on the block and endangering their own people and everyone else in the middle east..

 

[Sunburned]

Also, interestingly, she was a woman. Under Islam as practiced in part of the world, she never would have finished high school.

To correct an obvious factual error there are actually more women graduating out of university in Iran for example than men. I would give some links, but I am sure you can search for them.

 

[Autodidact]

To correct an obvious factual error there are actually more women graduating out of university in Iran for example than men. I would give some links, but I am sure you can search for them.

You missed "as practiced in part of the world." That would be Sudan, Yemen, parts of Pakistan, most of Afghanistan, Somalia, Bangladesh, Mozambique. It's hard to contribute much to science when you're illiterate, as are the great majority of women in these and many other Muslim-majority countries.

 

[Sunburned]

I'd say men in those areas mentioned don't contribute much to science either.

 

[Autodidact]

I'd say men in those areas mentioned don't contribute much to science either.

In general, the worse a region is for women, the worse it is for everyone.

 

[Meow Mix]

In general, the worse a region is for women, the worse it is for everyone.

Psh. Women are everyone. :yes: (jk, jk)