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Jesus a Child Killer?

outhouse

Atheistically
The difference is that GOD CAN BRING THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE

No sir i dont believe he ever has

We would die due to natural consequences of sin

no we would not

Would he not have already been the king of murder by numbering our days after Eden

I believe he didnt number anything.

Are you a young earth guy? or someone who believes the earth is flat?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
No -not a young earth guy -don't believe the earth is flat (except some parts of the midwest). I believe the earth existed long before the creation of Adam (the bible does not say the earth is only 6,000 years old, but that's another post in another thread). Adam was the first "man" by biblical definition (made in the image and likeness of God, with the potential to become like God) -not by scientific definition.

Sin is the transgression of the law -the law is the ten commandments, and various applicable judgments under the commandments. I'll just give you the easiest example... "Thou shalt not kill". Of course, men die of "natural" causes, but all life on earth is threatened by the creation of nuclear weapons (among others) with the intent to kill. Breaking the other commandments can lead to the desire to kill, war -and eventually complete self-annihilation.

Since many would bring up the fact that David and others killed as instructed by God at this point.... a little perspective...

When God first began working with Israel, he told them that if they obeyed, they would not need to war. They continually disobeyed, so God gave them over to war. God did instruct David and others in war after this, but no sin was laid to their charge when doing only as instructed by God. If they had continued to return to God, God would have relented of this judgment against them.

Still, sin obviously leads to death.

The fact that you do not believe God has ever brought anyone back to life does not mean he can not or has not -but your doubt is understandable.
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
That is a good point, although when you believe in the afterlife, death in this life seems less dramatic. For me, what seems far worse and incredibly evil, is being sent into hell for eternity. Better not to be born in the first place, thanks.

It definitely makes death seem less dramatic (though it's still the same experience) -such that those with trrue faith do not mourn as others...
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

What many believe "hell" to be -and misunderstandings about who will go there -for how long, etc., are definitely absurd, un-Godly -and not what is actually written in the bible.

Some will be cast into the lake of fire -but not the sort who would be missed.

The beast and false prophet are the first to be cast there -and this hasn't happened yet (though they are both most likely alive on earth at present).

Satan will be cast there 1,000 years later. Only after this will all who have ever lived and died -who were not made immortal the first resurrection -be resurrected to the "judgment" -and many will receive eternal life then.

In Gehenna -used to describe the lake of fire -God is able to destroy both body and spirit...
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (spirit) : but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (spirit) and body in hell (gehenna).

..but it is also true that it doesn't have to happen right away -and that some who are cast there are not necessarily cast there permanently. "For ever" as translated from the bible -can mean without end, but does not necessarily.

There is much more to it -It's not so simple a subject.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
No -not a young earth guy -don't believe the earth is flat

fair enough. :)

theres a point I draw the line to converse with.

By your words you treat the bible more as a guide. Am I safe to say that?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
The bible is a guide.

It is a collection of writings God compiled by using various human agents (good, evil, wise, ignorant).

It serves many purposes.

It is a guide toward eternal life, and toward obedience to, and understanding of, the Father and Son -who are able to give eternal life.

It is a written history of the experiences of the Israelites. Some may seem ridiculous to us now, but they were not contested in their time -and we are about to experience things far greater and more strange than any experienced and recorded previously (Though they are recorded in the bible as things that would eventually take place. Many prophecies have already come to pass, but most actually concern the times in which we now live).

It includes a record of direct quotes from God and his Son, and prophecies given by them to be recorded by men -which declare beforehand what will take place. It serves as a continual record before us -regardless of whether or not we read it or understand it -of the fact that he did so. It includes only a very brief overview of what took place before the creation of Adam -only what is important to God's purpose for man.

God is able to prevent the understanding thereof -and reveal it -and does so in accordance with his plan. He knows very well the power of information and timing.
 
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roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Of course... I wouldn't mind an explaination from a different source, or point of view. I like learning new things.
Point taken..... as I also thrive on learning, but regarding biblical plots and themes on a whole and on the onset looking into scripture, many of these do appear horrific,saddistic,murderous etc, but not to justify them, they still must be fully read in context and referenced to other relating verses that pertain to this general,theme/idea or topic, before one can make a final conclusion...just my view.
As well, pertaining to a righteous, Holy God who according to other places in scripture, is himself the epitome of purity,mercy,grace,love and justice, is patient and longsuffering in inflicting wrath and judgement upon those who have rejected and violated His statues,ordinances and laws or commandments.
..but the day will bring it to light.


Maybe, but you can't prove that. Your view of the Bible is different than mine. How do you even know that your belief is right and mine is wrong? I'm not stating anything bad about anyone who believes in the Bible... The Bible mainly teaches good morals and such but there are still some things in the Bible no one can explain because they don't make sense. I posted this thread because I was curious as to what people thought the verse meant.
I can't prove anything to anybody about what my understanding or perception is of scripture...it comes down to a personal relationship with God through the power of the Holy Spirit.
My belief is based on an encounter with God who is a spiritual beingThere is an assurance the true believers have that God is true:
Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Cr 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This relationship/encounter certainly opens up mine and countless other spirit filled believers understanding of scripture..as Jesus , Paul, and others often emphasised. Not implying Christians know all things, but Paul sums it up below:
.....my point in showing verses below is to somehow help to show that many of the spiritual things of God, or mysteries of God pertaining to what scripture declares are not fully comprehended on the onset looking in with carnal reasoning or logic alone. There is a spiritual dimension of who God is that tends to be overlooked by many people.
1Cr 2:10 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:14 — But the natural manreceiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
2Cr 4:4In whom the god of this world ( satan)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
..Jesus sums it up here...
Mat 13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Jhn 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 14:26Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he ( Holy Spirit) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you ( those who believe Jesus)all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


....there is so much more than surface reading and trying to understand scripture as you would a typical book...the Holy Spirit gives this insight and only him

Originally Posted by roli
......If God, contrary to secular popular opinion, and apparently yours,is actually as he is portrayed in scripture, loving, forgiving,patient,kind,infinite in wisdom , all knowing, glorious in splendor, matchless in majesty,abounding in mercy, eternal in existence...is it possible that finite beings, such as yourself are not qualified to assess a infinite God such as He and therefore unable to comprehended His action motives,judgements and purposes and render Him or His works evil.


I don't really understand what you are asking... may you please re-word?
I am saying the God of the bible, contrary to the secular view of those who see him in their finite reasoning mind as vengeful,hateful,dictator, murderous,wrathful,inflicting pain and suffering on his creation ,..... is on the opposite end of this spectrum a loving,patient,forgiving, meriful, just..but also that God is infitnite,eternal, all knowing,all present, all powerful

what exactly is going to be taken from everyone who don't listen? The only thing is the key to Heaven...
You basically hit the proverbial nail on the head .
There are other reasons as well, Jesus alluded to something by saying "if you would turn I would heal you"

Do you think anything in our lives other than that would be taken from those people?
Well our soul and body are primary and can involve every aspect of life as we know it...God is not in the business of stripping people of earthly belongings ,health,wealth,etc... men do a good enough job of destroying their own lives ,by greed,lust,self indulgence, pride,covetousness, envy,worry ,fear,murder etc.
Sin and it's consequences do the rest,as violating the law of gravity would bring about fatal effects,so sin..it just takes time to prove this.
Luk 9:2323 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels.
We realise that our physical lives are held in his hands!!!
Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

part 2 coming.....
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
This is a slightly edited post of mine from another thread -in case you haven't read it....

Anyway -bible prophecy contains more details about what will happen from now until the return of Christ than probably any other time.
I will expound later -and have in other threads -but here's a quick overview.... (Yes -it says this stuff below in the bible -apart from a very few details which have already happened/are already historical fact -though perhaps not widely known/ and/or I specify are probable/possible, etc.)

*Nazi SS officers (Aryan -Assyrian in bible prophecy) -when faced with imminent defeat -funnel resources out of Germany -plan to unite Europe -and do so successfully -working behind the scenes of the European common market/European Commmunity/European Union -develop/gain access to massive physical, monetary, intelligence and military resources -including access to nuclear weapons through other EU members -and gain leverage over Britain and the U.S. (and others) through the corporate/industrial sector and various underworlds. (Historical facts -also foretold in the bible)

(A small bit of speculation as to "how" based on actual events and personal experiences in the following section -but the fact remains)
They then take focus off their activities by helping plan/facilitating 9-11, use their influence in the U.S. to affect policy (even elections) so as to divide our forces -ensuring, at the very least, great difficulty in Afghanistan, and an open-ended commmitment in Iraq (not to mention bleeding our economy, dividing the nation, weakening/wearying the military) -all the while suppressing those in the US who are wise to them using a network of technologies (digital transition, etc!) they were instrumental in building (the capabilities of which most do not comprehend) and people they have cultivated to act in fear and without question ("made" in a broad sense) -even manipulating those who think they are acting against them by organizing the "resistance" themselves.... further leveraging our economy, etc., etc..... (and doing similar things to a lesser degree at present in Israel -and to Israel through their dealings with the U.S.).

Much of the world stands against Iran.... including our military industrial complex and those associated (which is the REAL reason [among others] we went into Iraq -though it's still a trap) (Daniel 11:14)... and the EU. (Happening now)

Britain is compromised in sovereignty and as a US ally by association with the EU. The US and Britain increasingly leave Israel to themselves even making decisions which strengthen their enemies. (Ezekiel 17 [11:21], Isaiah 9:21)

The EU takes an interest in the mideast peace process -and increasingly displaces the US in said process -though not all in the EU have peace in mind. Israel and Britain seek help from German-led EU (Hos 5:13, Daniel 8:25)

Russia increases in power and influence -plays both sides (EU/US) in self-interest. (Ezekiel 38)

Iran/radical Islam push at EU -EU is stirred up. (Daniel 11:40)

Israel is attacked by its neighbors/invaded. This conflict lasts 3 1/2 years. (Isaiah 29, Rev 11:2, Zec 14:2)

(Some minor speculation as to details in the following section, though, again, the fact remains)
US and strongest allies' economies are toppled by leverage, etc.- also nuked at about the same time as the above attack begins (probably by terrorists who have been aided by some behind the scenes of the EU). Chaos ensues -some eventually rounded up and taken to Europe as slave labor -similar to WWII. (actual Nazi presence will most likely be as minimal as possible -at least until the proverbial jig is up -though they'll probably be there to gloat as they make our travel arrangements [which has already begun -ahem]) (Habakkuk 1:9, Zep 3:1, Isiaiah 10, Deu 28, Jer 10 [:17-18], Isa 11:11-16, Isaiah 7:17-20 -and many others...)

EU forces pass over Iran (and friends) like a whirlwind -their forces continue to the holy land. (Daniel 11:40-43)

Russia and China will plan to join the fray, but the EU will strike them first -Russia and China field soldiers numbering in the hundreds of millions -and will almost completely cripple the EU. (Daniel 11:44-45, Rev 16:12, Rev 9:16, Ezekiel 17:10)

Russian/Chinese forces also move toward holy land. Russia desires to wind up with a bunch of new land and other spoil -aren't very succussful. (Ezekiel 38:10-13 / 39:11)

Forces are gathered in the valley of Megiddo to war with each other. (Rev 16:13-16)

Assyrian over EU forces sets up destruction at Jerusalem (possibly a tactical nuke -maybe not -the final final solution). (Luke 21:20, Matt 24:15, Mar 13:14, Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11)

Those in Judea who heed the warning of Christ flee when they see Jerusalem compassed by armies.

Jerusalem is essentially blown up -by whatever means (abomination of desolation).

Christ returns in power and glory -mount of Olives splits in two and his feet stand on it.

Forces gathered in Megiddo to war with each other leave off doing so to attack the returning Christ.

Christ and his angelic army (Joel 2, etc.) destroy the armies of the earth which fight him.

Those dead in Christ are raised immortal -the living in Christ meet them in the air and are also changed
-reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years -the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished -many receive eternal life after that judgment.

Christ sets up his rule on earth -and then the good part begins!!!!!!!!
Nature of animal life will be changed to not harm -desolate places will be made fertile, etc..
Man will no longer learn war -except that there will only be one more attempt at war by man after the thousand years -but it will be put down by fire. (Rev 20:7-9)

I will add more scripture references later.
 
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roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
I don't 100% believe that Jesus was the Son of God (though believe it a possibility) and nothing has been taken from me... A lot of wonderful things have happened in my life. My life is wonderful and I really am quite enjoying it. Since I don't believe, why is my life not horrible? Sure things are hard but I let that go and try harder to make my life better (which works by the way ;)). I don't blame the problems in my life on God... I blame myself for allowing my life to be a certain way. I do understand this verse... Those people who listen but don't understand are not to be punished... they are to be taught... maybe that is why I haven't been punished... because I am searching. But still... I still don't believe some things. God should know that and should understand that those beliefs may not change. Yet... my life is wonderful still. Why? Why does God not punish me?
I appreciate your honesty and transparency and your life may be as good as mine or better than countless others around the world, but I don't think this indicates that we are acceptable and pleasing to God or that we understand the things of God. Our present blessings we have in this life are not proof we have been pleasing to God or that he has approved our lives. Man may go on living materialistically, socially,emotionally and personally in tack, abounding in all things,but it is all about what is going on in the heart.
Act 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
I am quite sure he knows all about your life and your concerted efforts to live a good ,decent life, but as with all of us, he is requiring more, desiring for our good in it all, but his good is from a infinite and eternal perspective ,not limited as our finite minds are and that can only take place within the individuals heart, where no other man can enter.

Why can't some of those people see or hear? I would think they made that choice not to see or hear... it's not that they can't, it's because they don't choose to.
Several reasons based on scripture..here are a few
Reason 1 Their hearts are hard due to their religious hypocracy, self indulgence,arrogance, refusal to accept the Christ, pride that Jesus is going to have more followers.There are many reasons why people harden their hearts to Jesus and the things of God..but Jesus concludes that he wants to heal them if they ,by their own volition and humility would turn to him.
Mat13:15
For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes-- so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.'*

Reason 2.....satan blinds the minds of those who ,again by choice, choose not to believe and satan therefore blinds their minds through a host of allurements,pleasures,practices of this world etc
2Cr 4:4In whom the god of this world ( which is satan)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1Cr 2:14But the natural man( man without God /his Holy Spirit) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Jhn14:17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.

Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."





....the greatest reason why some people don't accept,listen,understand or believe the things of God is that despite the self evident indicators in creation alone, and the inherent knowledge already designed within men ,according to this passage in Romans 1, but men by choice according to Romans 1..which is a very good read if you wish..still refuse the truth and deny the evidence of God and therefore by personal volition choose to surpress the truth in unrighteousness

Rom 1-18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
A lot of wonderful things have happened in my life. My life is wonderful and I really am quite enjoying it. Since I don't believe, why is my life not horrible? Sure things are hard but I let that go and try harder to make my life better (which works by the way ;)). I don't blame the problems in my life on God... I blame myself for allowing my life to be a certain way. I do understand this verse... Those people who listen but don't understand are not to be punished... they are to be taught... maybe that is why I haven't been punished... because I am searching. But still... I still don't believe some things. God should know that and should understand that those beliefs may not change. Yet... my life is wonderful still. Why? Why does God not punish me?



Why can't some of those people see or hear? I would think they made that choice not to see or hear... it's not that they can't, it's because they don't choose to
.
Choice is what it always comes down to

I may not understand some things but maybe that's because there is a reason why they are difficult to grasp... It's very difficult for me to believe every single thing the Bible says to me. You can throw out these verses all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the Bible has been re-written, changed, and re-vamped for centuries. If I had the abililty to read the original in its FULL context, I probably wouldn't think twice about it.
How many ways can you tell the story of "jack and jill going up the hill, and still keep the integrity and the main plot or message of the story.
So it is with scripture. although some things have happened and are in question the theme and message of the bible has not been lost, do a study on the bible and how it was transcribed and handed down and preserved despite countless attempts to destroy it and yet it still remains the most circulated,widely sold and read book in the world.
The interpratations of scripture have changed ,but that is another thread and can be explained in various sites ,if you would do the research

I am very glad you made a reply to my thread though. I listened to your explaination and tried to understand it the best I could.

Well ,likewise I am appreciating your personal views and experiences and hope you come to the truth to what it is your searching for regarding this topic.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Their hearts are hard due to their religious hypocracy, self indulgence,arrogance, refusal to accept the Christ

lets note this is only your opinion and you may want to realize your religion is only 1/3 of the population, this i believe makes ever single point you make invalid

satan blinds the minds

maybe you should back this statement up a little with a few bible verses that explain what satan can and cannot do. In my opinion he is a myth introduced as a scare tactic.

but he who does not believe is condemned

pretty arrogent ancient statement for modern man to hold on to, dont you think??? I know I am not a condemned man and I dont believe %95 of what the OT or NT states.

the self evident indicators in creation alone,

not just in my opinion but the pope himself says that evolution is a science worth taking notice, in my opinion creation is a myth

thankfully creation soon will not be taught in any public schools
 
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roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
lets note this is only your opinion and you may want to realize your religion is only 1/3 of the population, this i believe makes ever single point you make invalid
First of all it's not my opinion ,just merely stating what Jesus said, you can believe it or not.
How does the number of adherents make a religion or it's teaching valid or invalid ?

Quote:Roli
satan blinds the minds
maybe you should back this statement up a little with a few bible verses that explain what satan can and cannot do. In my opinion he is a myth introduced as a scare tactic.

Well, I would be happy to reference this with scripture, keep in mind it;s scripture and not my opinion !!!.....and apparently only a myth to you, but here ya go
Satan's fate starts in Gen and ends in Revelation
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, ( Mary)and between thy seed and her(Mary) seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus defeats him at the cross
Col 2:15Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Satan created and fell with pride and arrogance
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone*--red carnelian, chrysolite, white moonstone, beryl, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald--all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created.I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian.* You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you.
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isa 14:12-17 For you have said in your heart:'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;I will also sit on the mount of the congregationOn the farthest sides of the north;14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, will be like the Most High.'15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities,Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

Power given to Christians over devil
Luk 10:19Behold, I give unto you(christians) power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Satan's fate spoken of by Paul
Rom 16:20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Satan transforms himself into angels of light
2Cr 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

We fight against the unseen ministers /or angels of satan
Eph 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

He is ultimately defeated ,but carries many names/titles
Serpent,devil,dragon,pricne of the power of the air,god of this world,lucifer
Rev 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
2Cr 4:4 — In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jhn 12:31 — Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Eph 2:2 — Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Isa 14:12 thou has fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
He is a liar and father of them
Jhn 8:44Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ultimate destination
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
pretty arrogent ancient statement for modern man to hold on to, dont you think??? I know I am not a condemned man and I dont believe %95 of what the OT or NT states.
Now you are free according to Jesus, but Jesus says you can take that up with him on your special day in court
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Hbr 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

...these are just opinions by the writers of the bible,....or not...!!!!
not just in my opinion but the pope himself says that evolution is a science worth taking notice, in my opinion creation is a myth
Look around you at the natural wonders of creation and tell me what does logic say about the life cycle,laws of nature, specific mixtures of gases producing breathable air, exact proximity of the sun to earth, hydrological cycle, cell dna and repair.
...fluke,random chance,coincidence,evolution verses creation

thankfully creation soon will not be taught in any public schools
That will be something worth following up on to see if they are putting a secular world view spin to the creation story to make it more user freindly
 
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Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Look around you at the natural wonders of creation and tell me what does logic say about the life cycle,laws of nature, specific mixtures of gases producing breathable air, exact proximity of the sun to earth, hydrological cycle, cell dna and repair.
...fluke,random chance,coincidence,evolution verses creation
Definitely speaks nothing of a loving God or someone named Jesus. A possible creator? Sure I can allow that possibility to exist. However it appears he either died or considers us unworthy, or he is having a fun time watching our minds play tricks on us because he created our minds in that way.

What if God has some sort of sick twisted sense of humor and he is laughing at how rediculous all the religious are? What if the rare(Less than almost any religion) atheists are the only ones who passed his test?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
How does the number of adherents make a religion or it's teaching valid or invalid

it means its not as common as you think and you have the minority view.

Well, I would be happy to reference this with scripture

funny christians run from the OT when they want but use it when deemed its needed.

doesnt matter still easy to refute with its mythical nature in my opinion.

first this was in context to "satan blinds the mind"

PLEASE provide refference, you post links with satan but no substance. :shrug:

but Jesus says you can take that up with him on your special day in court

im sorry but there is no jesus court hearings in reality land.

That will be something worth following up on to see if they are putting a secular world view spin to the creation story to make it more user freindly

Bud this is the funniest thing you have ever said :D

your saying creation has to evolve again because first, young earth failed, then creation failed and ID has failed.

because humans cant comprehend all of nature %100 doesnt mean evolution is faulty.

evolution is solid science and not up for debate anymore. creation has failed and will go the way side the same way as its earlier notion of young earth and the sun revolves around the earth myths
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
it means its not as common as you think and you have the minority view.
The end of the story has yet to be played out...it's been written,but obviously not received to well..so the deciding factor will be time.


funny christians run from the OT when they want but use it when deemed its needed.
Who's running???????
doesnt matter still easy to refute with its mythical nature in my opinion.
You can refute anything with human logic and reasoning. Today's culture believe truth is relative,there are no absolutes, there is no right or wrong......it's been made to be the ideal breeding ground for living out untold carnal pleasures and passions,with an obvious and consious denial of apparent consequences.
The proverbial alarm clock of conscience is turned to "off", ultimately becoming seared as with a hot iron.

God's view on the so called wise of this age, the philosphers etc.
1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.




PLEASE provide refference, you post links with satan but no substance. :shrug:
Not to clear on what more you want

im sorry but there is no jesus court hearings in reality land.
That sounds like an absolute statement!!!!
What is reality land to you, is it a rational thought, a fixed and unshakable belief system, a mind set, is it just what is today, or can reality,as concerned with your life, change and be played out in continuation tommorrow and if so, than hypothetically the reality of your existence, which is well and good today, could conclude tommorrow.
My point is, reality is not limited to what is now, or in the the next 5 minutes, but what is to come.
All your present and self assured realities of what you disbelieve and refute about God today could be played out tommorrow, and may be proved genuine and in line with what you believed,but tommorrow's realities may vary considerablly from today's..and you may be faced with a new reality, one you did not suspect, that of the existence of a God and his throne of Judgment that he claims every man will enter into.
That is how our choices regarding realities today will effect the realities of what will actually be tommorrow, so I would think we should be a little less presumptuous of today's apparent realities and more cautious as to what may actually be tommorrow


Bud this is the funniest thing you have ever said :D

your saying creation has to evolve again because first, young earth failed, then creation failed and ID has failed.

because humans cant comprehend all of nature %100 doesnt mean evolution is faulty.

evolution is solid science and not up for debate anymore. creation has failed and will go the way side the same way as its earlier notion of young earth and the sun revolves around the earth myths
The Creation story and scripture were here long before you graced the earth with your presence and has only failed in the eyes of those who don't believe it.... looking at history, it makes me quite certain it will stand along with scripture,long after you and all skeptics of this generation are gone. I believe reality will play out one day for all to see.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
The end of the story has yet to be played out

im sorry but scholars have a pretty even split on the kingdom of god, weather it was preached as being here now [when jesus lived] and when it was coming. It states and i know you know this, that it would be with in in a generation.

since most of the bible contradicts itself you can read into it however you want, scholars have a different view.

there is no right or wrong

that is wrong and you know it, that is dangerous thinking.

it's been made to be the ideal breeding ground for living out untold carnal pleasures and passions,with an obvious and consious denial of apparent consequences.

atleast your keeping the humor alive :)

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

your reading the script wrong in my opinion

ancient man was not talking about the future and could not see into it.

That sounds like an absolute statement!!!!

it is

or in the the next 5 minutes, but what is to come.

no one has a clue. even by your beliefs,, very little is said about heaven and hell

You seem to under estimate the fictitious nature of the bible, much of the old testement were story's orally handed down through generations after generations to the point the storys are no where near what really took place. take the story of david or solomos temple. It was claimed that he had over a 1000 wives yet there was barely 1000 people living in the whole region.

there is very little real history that can be taken from ancient storys, to base a religion or two off of and then claim truths after 2000-3000 years. 3000 years in solomons storys. this was just one example of what historians and scholars know that took place. theres much much more and they all play out in this fashion.

You get to the new testement and all unknown authors and of those many copied one another plus as the scrolls aged, many of the ends would wear off and the scribes had to forge the endings in a few.


ANYWAY thast not the point of this thread, this thread deals with how the fiction was created as a scare tactic to help round up beleivers in a time when pagan beliefs ran wild, this form of hellenistic judaism moved foward to appeal to more people then just those that lived in judea where that tribe started. ALL in my opinion,, but ment to primitively scare pagans into belief




The Creation story and scripture were here long before you graced the earth

like it or not the creation myth failed, its not coming back. As our current children are taught science properly the myths will slowly fade. Evolution is solid and growing. By geographic location alone do you hold onto this belief. here in the US creation still hold strong compared to most other country's in the western world. Thankfully creation is banned from %99.9 of the schools
 
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Thesavorofpan

Is not going to save you.
Rev 2:20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Rev 2:21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.

Rev 2:22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.

Rev 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Why would the children be put to death? The way I am understanding the passage is this... someone tolerated Jezebel, some "Prophetess" that commited adultery and gave sacraficial offerings to idols. From then on it talks about the punishments... so, why the children?

Okay lets look at these verses again. Jezebel is being used as an allegory for a person in power at the location to which this part of the letter is being written too. When he says that he will strike her children dead he means that person in power (who is abusing that power) followers will also die. So in wrap up these verses mean. Someone in power was abusing it. God gave that person a chance to to change. Said person didn't change and thus God had to remove them.
 

averageJOE

zombie
What if God has some sort of sick twisted sense of humor and he is laughing at how rediculous all the religious are? What if the rare(Less than almost any religion) atheists are the only ones who passed his test?
I believe this is a great question that I've even asked from time to time. I've asked "what if satan invented all the religions in the world and wrote every "holy book" to divide humanity against itself?" Abrahamic religious believe that satan is the master of lies yet somehow believe that they are immune to those lies.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
im sorry but scholars have a pretty even split on the kingdom of god, weather it was preached as being here now [when jesus lived] and when it was coming. It states and i know you know this, that it would be with in in a generation
.
Mark 13 referring to the generation that will not pass away until these things be fulfilled will be the one who is within the time period of extensive wars and rumours of wars,earthquakes,famines,family rising up against family, false prophet's and messiah's doing miracles that decieve many,Daniel's prophecy of the one world leader (anti Christ) sitting in the temple.

since most of the bible contradicts itself you can read into it however you want, scholars have a different view.
Paul speaks about this in Corinthians The natural man cannot begin to comprehend the things of God because they are spirituall discerned, you may not agree with this, but the knowledge of God and the things of God comes through the revelation the Holy Spirit gives to spirit filled believers and the insight of those who are outside remain ignorant of the things of God.
It is just a spiritual principal and Jesus speaks often of, Matt 13 is an example,there are those who are outside the knowledge of God, the kngdom of God is a mystery, an enigma to them and when his disciples asked why, Jesus said, They remain in darkness to the truth and reality of the spiritual kingdom of God, what he is doing,has done and is about to do. because in verse 15 "For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
John 3 says that men love darkness and hate the light or truth of God found in Jesus Christ and won't come to that light for fear of their deeds /lives being exposed.
It's easier and more logical to assert that people are more likely to deny,reject and refute against something that threatens to espose them them and expose truth of something deep within than to openly embrace it....just a thought

It's foreknowledge into the truth of God,an edge to the unseen world of God, this may be mystical sounding to all who read it , and so it is ,it is supernatural and one that can't be analysed only experienced,so understand when your talking to born again spirit filled believers,remember where they come from, all walks of life,religions and cultures, athesitic,agnostic,skeptical,secular world view backgrounds who have had a revelation of Jesus Christ and has transformed their lives


that is wrong and you know it, that is dangerous thinking.
not my thinking...that was a quote from Paul regarding how God looka upon the wisdom of this world and how he laughs at it.


your reading the script wrong in my opinion
That my view freind is relative to what experience/encounter I have from God and yours is from the apparent lack there of!!!!

ancient man was not talking about the future and could not see into it.


no one has a clue. even by your beliefs,, very little is said about heaven and hell
Are you willing to place your eternal destination on that ???
Again ,very much is spoken of heaven and hell in scripture, it's just it's mention of it escapes your ability to detect it . Jesus speaks about it quite often, as a matter of fact.


You seem to under estimate the fictitious nature of the bible, much of the old testement were story's orally handed down through generations after generations to the point the storys are no where near what really took place. take the story of david or solomos temple. It was claimed that he had over a 1000 wives yet there was barely 1000 people living in the whole region.
Fictitous to you because you trust in natural intuition, logic,reason, alone to equate these stories,but your inability to grasp the spiritual truth of it is because you are able to spiritually discern what really is
Again, you do realize that the archaelogical evidence that is at hand is astounding, but seldom spoke of or referred to in these arenas.

there is very little real history that can be taken from ancient storys, to base a religion or two off of and then claim truths after 2000-3000 years. 3000 years in solomons storys. this was just one example of what historians and scholars know that took place. theres much much more and they all play out in this fashion.
The truth of God ,scripture and stories of the bible will always be percieved this way by the reasoning/rational mind, it is what Paul and Jesus spoke about constantly but when life takes a turn that causes men to comprehend their frailty and morality and that life really is out of their control ,then and maybe then men will call on a God they refuted all their life.
It happens all the time in life, men who call out to a God or pray to a God in desperate,tragic situations that they never once acknowledged when they had their faculties intacked and were not threatened with their mortality.

It seems all rationale and logic and obstinate disbeliefs of a God they once rejected fades in the desperation and zeal for life and calling out to that same God becomes the only means to the end of their suffering. It's quite interesting and almost an inherent trait to watch men humble and yeild their arrogant and proud intellects in such instances.


You get to the new testement and all unknown authors and of those many copied one another plus as the scrolls aged, many of the ends would wear off and the scribes had to forge the endings in a few.
Your lack knowledge is evident here!

ANYWAY thast not the point of this thread, this thread deals with how the fiction was created as a scare tactic to help round up beleivers in a time when pagan beliefs ran wild, this form of hellenistic judaism moved foward to appeal to more people then just those that lived in judea where that tribe started. ALL in my opinion,, but ment to primitively scare pagans into belief

Despite this verse, the reason that I or many that I know or have read about that have made Jesus Christ lord of their lives did not come to God based on fear ,but an awe and reverence and respect of who God is and a humble perspective of where life has them. This often only comes when human ingeniunity fails and logic and rationale are insuffcient to supply adequate answers to life situations.
Do you respect hurricanes,Niagara Falls or the ocean, maybe not until you found yourself trapped in either of them, it's fierceness, it's power,it's ability to permanently effect your life beyond your control. how about a God who see's all, knows all and will judge all.

A fool is one who has no respect for nature, how much more the one who conducts nature!!


Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




like it or not the creation myth failed, its not coming back. As our current children are taught science properly the myths will slowly fade. Evolution is solid and growing. By geographic location alone do you hold onto this belief. here in the US creation still hold strong compared to most other country's in the western world. Thankfully creation is banned from %99.9 of the schools
In actuality it is continually unfolding and the final stage is upon us, be patient and watch for the final curtain, for the reality of what is unfolding in the world now will cause even the novice to be able to connect the dots of what scripture already had to say about it, scripture and today's events are remarkably compariable
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Are you willing to place your eternal destination on that ???

no such thing or place in my opinion, i will not rely on ancient mans fiction to base my life upon.

because you trust in natural intuition, logic,reason,

this is exactly why faith is evil. This is the same kind of faith that drives planes into tall buildings and straps bombs to find crowded areas to play. This is the same kind of faith that murders abortion doctors and its the same faith that murdered countless people through out history. in my opinion

The truth of God ,scripture and stories of the bible will always be percieved this way by the reasoning/rational mind,

do you read what you type sir????

by reason and being rational is why mankind advances, I hope you keep your dangerous talk to the internet only.

Your lack knowledge is evident here!

I wont get into your lack of history VS faith arguement. faith is belief without evidence.

God who see's all, knows all and will judge all.

wichful thinking dont you think???

did not come to God based on fear

yes the evil of the bible is a scare tactic in my opinion, god is obviously a jealous childlike god with the passages as presented.

A fool is one who has no respect for nature,

hey you said something I agree with!! hurray hurray!!! lol

how much more the one who conducts nature

well your wrong there by leaps and bounds. My uncle runs a powerhouse run with hydro electric power OOOOOOO spooky bad man lol uses magic to power lights oooooo LOL you are funny bud

In actuality it is continually unfolding and the final stage is upon us

this is the great part, if you talk to someone long enough that is toooooo devote in his or her beliefs they stumble like a 1 year old learning to walk. You have done it here. christians have been claiming thi since the beginning of your religion. You seem no differentthen primitive man with this statement.

be patient and watch for the final curtain

no thanks ill live my life fully just the way I am now.

the reality of what is unfolding in the world now will cause even the novice to be able to connect the dots of what scripture already had to say about it

No sir, I dont believe it is. AS a matter of fact christians have been saying this as well since the beginning of christianity.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Quoted from Revelation 2:23, "I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."

What exactly does this passage mean and why did Jesus say this?

:facepalm:

First of all, it was God the Father who recited Revelation to St. John and not God the Son (Jesus). And by "children" the author of Revelation 2:23 means "people" and not actual children. God sees us all as children, regardless of our age.

Suggesting that Jesus Christ was a child-killer is horribly offensive to Christians and a few hundred years ago the Church would have "purified" you for doing so. But in the year 2010, you along with Matt Parker and Trey Stone are free to blaspheme however they like (as long as the target is not Islam).
 
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