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Christians: It Is Presumptuous To Presume...

Arkholt

Non-vessel
Hmm. Often, when I see on the news that someone has been hateful or even killed in the name of Christianity, I come to the conclusion that they are not true Christians. I think that is acceptable, but that's just me.

Separating people as Christian or not based on slight differences in belief is quite silly, though.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Hmm. Often, when I see on the news that someone has been hateful or even killed in the name of Christianity, I come to the conclusion that they are not true Christians. I think that is acceptable, but that's just me.

Separating people as Christian or not based on slight differences in belief is quite silly, though.

I think you're right. But to err is human.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
We, as Christians, know that we are not perfect. We know that we are forgiven. And only God can see what's in our hearts. So, only God would know who a true Christians in his or her heart would be.
I agree. Most Christians try to make lists of things that a person must believe in order to be a Christian. Obviously that list always includes the things he or she believes and excludes the things he or she does not believe. God doesn't look at it that way at all. God looks beyond those things. That's what I tell myself when people try to tell me I'm not a Christian.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Hmm. Often, when I see on the news that someone has been hateful or even killed in the name of Christianity, I come to the conclusion that they are not true Christians. I think that is acceptable, but that's just me.

Separating people as Christian or not based on slight differences in belief is quite silly, though.

If I see a guy who goes to church, wears a cross, etc. go out and say hateful things to other people, cheats on his/her spouse, and that sort of things, then I will, in my mind, question his/her faith. But the final word is from God. :) (That means I agree with you).
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
The epistles say we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by our good deeds.
So the second tenet would be that our good works will not get us into heaven, only Jesus' "good work" on the cross will get us to heaven, by faith in it. (Rom 3:25)
Let me try and wrap my head around this. Suppose I believe in Jesus, then go about mistakenly trying to do enough good deeds to get to heaven. You are saying I'm going to hell instead?
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
If I see a guy who goes to church, wears a cross, etc. go out and say hateful things to other people, cheats on his/her spouse, and that sort of things, then I will, in my mind, question his/her faith. But the final word is from God. :) (That means I agree with you).

I sometimes wear a small metal cross made of nails and wire but always tucked into my shirt. I do this because of how the cross as a symbol is being horrifically misused these days. It's become the standard for gangbanger jewellry. This is but one of the many ways the world and its prince are waging war against God.


images



Here is a much plainer, saner cross pendant.


images
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Let me try and wrap my head around this. Suppose I believe in Jesus, then go about mistakenly trying to do enough good deeds to get to heaven. You are saying I'm going to hell instead?
Eph says, you are saved by grace alone through faith, this not of yourselves, it is a gift from God so that no man can boast....in his so called deeds. You either are aiming on heaven through faith in Jesus alone, which is the primary step and than doing works that are indictitive of the fruits of the new nature you have taken on in Christ, which is secondary, yet they both go hand in hand, but the latter seems to be only an effect or product of the primary step of faith alone.
I mean how can anyone who is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit not bare fruits worthy of repentance.
Remembering that belief in God alone was insufficient and that even the demons believe and tremble.
I Cor 3..clearly describes a smiliar scenario where a man who builds on any other foundation that that which is laid ,that being Jesus Christ...it will be burned up and the fire will test the sort of work it is..you may be saved yourself ,yet as one excaping through the flames.........by the hair of your chin, basically.

..always up for interpretation and personal conviction I suppose
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Eph says, you are saved by grace alone through faith, this not of yourselves, it is a gift from God so that no man can boast....in his so called deeds. You either are aiming on heaven through faith in Jesus alone, which is the primary step and than doing works that are indictitive of the fruits of the new nature you have taken on in Christ, which is secondary, yet they both go hand in hand, but the latter seems to be only an effect or product of the primary step of faith alone.
I mean how can anyone who is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit not bare fruits worthy of repentance.
Remembering that belief in God alone was insufficient and that even the demons believe and tremble.
I Cor 3..clearly describes a smiliar scenario where a man who builds on any other foundation that that which is laid ,that being Jesus Christ...it will be burned up and the fire will test the sort of work it is..you may be saved yourself ,yet as one excaping through the flames.........by the hair of your chin, basically.

..always up for interpretation and personal conviction I suppose
True enough. Particularly your last line.

I'm curious as to what you think Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-46?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

For the record, I too believe that salvation is a gift and that we cannot earn our way into Heaven through our good works. On the other hand, I believe that there will be a time when we stand before God to be judged of our works. When that happens, I certainly hope to be counted among the sheep. I don't want to be among those who has to say, "Uh... didn't I just have to believe?"
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Eph says, you are saved by grace alone through faith, this not of yourselves, it is a gift from God so that no man can boast....in his so called deeds. You either are aiming on heaven through faith in Jesus alone, which is the primary step and than doing works that are indictitive of the fruits of the new nature you have taken on in Christ, which is secondary, yet they both go hand in hand, but the latter seems to be only an effect or product of the primary step of faith alone.
I mean how can anyone who is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit not bare fruits worthy of repentance.
Remembering that belief in God alone was insufficient and that even the demons believe and tremble.
I Cor 3..clearly describes a smiliar scenario where a man who builds on any other foundation that that which is laid ,that being Jesus Christ...it will be burned up and the fire will test the sort of work it is..you may be saved yourself ,yet as one excaping through the flames.........by the hair of your chin, basically.

..always up for interpretation and personal conviction I suppose
Legalist. I think that Jesus might be a bit more forgiving for our ignorance than that.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
I try to avoid the trap of deciding whether someone else is a true Christian or not. After all, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." If I do feel that someone is being, well, less than Christian, it's never on account of what they believe. Rather, following the advice of my master, I look to the fruit of their labor. Good trees make good fruit, and bad trees bad. Trying to judge a man on the basis of what they believe is like trying to judge a tree by its species rather than its fruit, and it is an activity for the unwise.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Let me try and wrap my head around this. Suppose I believe in Jesus, then go about mistakenly trying to do enough good deeds to get to heaven. You are saying I'm going to hell instead?
That faith would be weak.
And that un-Biblical belief would diminish your relationship with Jesus, by diminishing
your appreciation of what he really did for you,
your grasp of God's view of sin and sinners (it required the sacrificial death of his own Son to make it right between you and him),
your freedom in Christ,
your trust in God and Christ for everything,
the glory of God in your free salvation, by taking some of the credit in earning it.

Christianity is the only non-works based religion on earth.
All other religions require works, in addition to faith, to be saved from God's just wrath on their sin.

However, Christians are also to obey Christ's commands, because they love him. . .it is the evidence of their love, faith and commitment to him.
But that obedience does not contribute to their salvation from God's just wrath on their sin. . .it is simply the evidence of their faith, which alone saves.

If God were to ask you at the gate of heaven, why he should allow you in, what would you answer?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
True enough. Particularly your last line.
I'm curious as to what you think Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-46?
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
For the record, I too believe that salvation is a gift and that we cannot earn our way into Heaven through our good works. On the other hand, I believe that there will be a time when we stand before God to be judged of our works. When that happens, I certainly hope to be counted among the sheep. I don't want to be among those who has to say, "Uh... didn't I just have to believe?"
Note the judgment is based on how the sheep and the goats treated the people of God.
There is only one people of God. . .those who believe in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18,36).

The way the sheep treated those in Christ is evidence of their faith, which saves from God's wrath.
The way the goats treated those in Christ is evidence of their unbelief, which condemns to the wrath of God (Jn 3:18,36).
But judgment being based on the treatment of those in Christ, it's still about faith in Jesus Christ which saves, and unbelief in Jesus Christ which condemns.

Remember, at this point Jesus had not yet died, none of the disciples knew anything of his sacrificial death,
and Paul had not yet been converted to write the epistles which explain it all.
So, their limited understanding limited what Jesus could reveal at the time.
 
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roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
True enough. Particularly your last line.

I'm curious as to what you think Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-46?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
.
Reading in context this entire chapter, I believe the oil mentioned throughout scripture ,has various meanings, oil is a healing ointment, a valuable traded commodity for incence,food,bathing etc. many were highly esteemed for owning oils,it indicated wealth,status and power to those who possessed it, it was extremely valuable,but here it signifies or represents the Holy Spirit which produces the light of life in all men, which is given by God through Jesus when they come into faith in Christ.

Jhn 6:63 — It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.


but some have the form of godliness or indication of being saved and heaven bound as Jesus alludes to several times in scripture, but deny the power of life inside and understanding of scripture that only comes through the Holy Spirit
2Ti 3:5 — Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Cr 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Cr 1:22 he set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I think the starting point or prerequisite in understanding this or any of the parables is found in Mark, where Jesus says in Mark 4:13, that if you can not understand the parable of the sower who sows ,how is you can understand any parable.

Jesus is clearly portraying the life or light of God, that being the Holy Spirit) is found in the flame of the lamps, in which is the only way to see and be prepared for the coming of the groom( Christ)
I also believe the oil (spirit) which is apparently personal,gives the individual light needed to see the groom, when they heard the cry he was coming.
It's intersting that the foolish could not pursue the groom, even with the light of the other wise virgins lamps and so as to find their way to the door of the house where the marriage dinner was prepared.

The lack of oil in certain lamps obviously determines who was not prepared, either by denial,ignorance or total laziness, because they all seemed to have experience and knowledge of this event as they all were initially prepared but some neglected to fully prepare.
They had many things in common, they were all looking for the appearing of the groom ( Christ), they were all virgins,pure from the world,they all had the same equipment,oil,wicks,lamps and lighting apparatus which were obvious requirements for safe travel at night.
Maybe the key here is the source of oil and price to be paid was different which may have hindered them from being adequately prepared.
Either way, the amount of oil was the distinguishing factor that would point to who was wise and who was foolish, who was really the bride and who was not ,who would be separated from the groom forever and who would not, who the groom would recognise and accept and who he would shun.

Back to the verses I mentioned previously ..it is the indwelling presence of Holy spirit that Jesus promised he would send in John 14, 15,16 that will be the deciding factor of who is who and who is in and who is out.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

,,,and the fruit of the spirit coming from good trees will prove who is who, although many look good on the outside, many are dead and lost inside, according to Matt 7 Jesus speaks of not Judging until you have examined your own life and when sin is removed than you can help your brother with his problem, enter through the straight and narrow gate ,indicating count the costs of following Jesus, he also speaks of false christians who call out ,Lord, Lord and do all kinds of acts of service, wonders and might deeds, but Jesus claims , I never knew you.

It seems to come back to association....." family, foundation, and fruit"
What family do you belong to, Christ's or some other.
What foundation are you building on, pleasurable,easy, quick gradifications this life offers, for time will decalre for all to see
What is your fruit ,it may look good to others and the individual ,but ultimately it will come down to what it produces, life and blessing for others and to God or self.


in the wise and foolish men, who both built houses with possibly the same materials, using similar tools and expereinced the same weather conditions but their foundations were radically different which determined who stayed and who perished.
For the record, I too believe that salvation is a gift and that we cannot earn our way into Heaven through our good works. On the other hand, I believe that there will be a time when we stand before God to be judged of our works. When that happens, I certainly hope to be counted among the sheep. I don't want to be among those who has to say, "Uh... didn't I just have to believe?
I believe you are correct in these statements.....and the assurance you hope for is something that we can have without doubt, It all comes down to having the Holy Spirit within that gives any who come to him the full and confident assurance and guarantee heaven and christ are yours
2Cr 1:22 he set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
1Jo 5:13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Legalist. I think that Jesus might be a bit more forgiving for our ignorance than that.
Hello Sandy...actually He is very merciful and patient not willing that any man perish..but at the same time, I think there is genuine ignorance than there is wilful ignorance, where one falls is between them and God, keeping in mind that Rom 1 states all man have an inherent knowledge and manifestation of God and will be without excuse on the judgment day God has ordained ..according to scripture.

Act 17:30 — And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 

Civil Shephard

Active Member
I may have done this before, but I thought it was time to address it again. I used to post at various Christian forums, and there were always several Christians on them who would always presume that someone "wasn't a true Christian" if someone did not agree with them on certain points (including The Trinity, OSAS (once saved, always saved), and a lot more).
I would attempt to tell them that we could live with the differences in our faith, as long as we followed Jesus and His commands, just to be told that I wasn't a true Christian, either.

That kind of stuff made me really angry. I stopped posting at all these forums and the only religious forum I still post at is this one.

Don't you agree that it is presumptuous to tell a person that they are not a "true Christian" if you don't agree with all the same tenets? Have you had this happen to you? How do you address with those who say such things?

Heavy as such presumptuous provocation can be I've learned to have mercy on those who are acting like pharisees and pretending to be Jesus. It's was sometimes tempting to me as a new believer to just feel so bad for all those people who were going to hell for not believing in Jesus the way I did. I'll never forget the day I read the woe's that Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharisees and his Holy Spirit showed me what I'd been thinking and saying and how I'd been praying and behaving that was more like some self appointed high priest than his humble disciple.

After all... I was a Kings Kid made to be adored and listened to as I sang with my beautiful voice and humbly washed toilets!

Well... to me we grow from faith to faith and even better from love to love and perhaps even better from "I don't know" to "I'm sorry I really just don't know".

And one day I woke up and realized I'm not a true Christian... and I'm still not a true Christian but I believe it is possible to be a true Christian and I know some that I believe are true Christians but most of them don't believe they are true Christians either... that could be why their my true friends. And I suppose I'd rather be thought of as a true friend than a true Christian any day. Both would be nice... but I secretly believe Jesus wants me to be his friend and not his servant so I just go there in my presumptuous heart from time to time.
 
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