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Christians: It Is Presumptuous To Presume...

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I may have done this before, but I thought it was time to address it again. I used to post at various Christian forums, and there were always several Christians on them who would always presume that someone "wasn't a true Christian" if someone did not agree with them on certain points (including The Trinity, OSAS (once saved, always saved), and a lot more).
I would attempt to tell them that we could live with the differences in our faith, as long as we followed Jesus and His commands, just to be told that I wasn't a true Christian, either.

That kind of stuff made me really angry. I stopped posting at all these forums and the only religious forum I still post at is this one.

Don't you agree that it is presumptuous to tell a person that they are not a "true Christian" if you don't agree with all the same tenets? Have you had this happen to you? How do you address with those who say such things?
 
I think it is presumpteous to tell a person whether they are a "true Christian" or not because only God knows a person's heart. Whether you agree them them or not about particular doctrines is beside the point.

I haven't had this happen to me, but hypothetically, if someone told me I wasn't a "true Christian" because I didn't agree with them about certain doctrines, I'd first point out that a person's agreement with other Christians isn't what defines "true Christianity." Then I'd realise that what that person is really getting at is a particular doctrine, so I'd try to find out why they believed what they did, why they thought I was wrong etc. and see what the Bible actually says about the doctrine in question.

It's true that we can probably live with the differences we've got, but the Bible teaches that God is fairly keen on unity in the church, and "differenes in faith" probably aren't what He wants. In reference to Scripture, I've heard the phrase "one interpretation, many appliactions." There are many incorrect interpretations of scripture that lead to many wrong applications (which I think is the main reason for division in the Church,) but there is only one correct interpretation. In theory there shouldn't be differences in "our faith;" all Christians should all believe the same thing, but the way each Christian lives out those beliefs will probably be different because we're all in different circumstances, have a different gift mix, differnt calling etc.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
If humor doesn't work, just learn how to ignore them.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
There are, however, certain basic beliefs which a person must believe to be accepted into the family of God.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
yeah....a common problem.....

I no longer follow congregations....of any kind.

When you read scripture and then see the effect it has....
you can't help but wander off, and to avoid recitals.

There's a thread going on right now, wherein my 'would be opponent' is clinging to rhetoric that will fail....when needed the most.
It reeks of a sales pitch, and is recited at length, as if the repetition makes it work.

The 'saved' routine is worst of all.
I'm surprised how many people will publicly gone on, at length, reciting what they've been told and then fall short of what it takes to make it work.

One poor fellow brought it to our break session at work....
I let him say as he pleased and then warned all at hand....
'nay'....'as long as you are breathing...you are at risk.'

Assumption is a tool.
Properly used you can make certain a great many things.

Faith is an article that does not require proving....however...
It does require careful consideration.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Don't you agree that it is presumptuous to tell a person that they are not a "true Christian" if you don't agree with all the same tenets?
Absolutely.

Have you had this happen to you?
Oh, a time or two. ;)

How do you address with those who say such things?
Actually, it kind of depends on my mood. Most of the time, I make a sincere effort to find out specifically why the individual is making that claim and try to reason with him to help him understand that there is nowhere in the Bible where the word "Christian" is actually defined. I point out that the reason why he doesn't believe that I'm a "true Christian" can more than likely be applied to a first century Christian, and is therefore not a valid criteria. I really do try hard to be civil and respectful, even in the face of what is often very hateful rhetoric on the other person's part. At some point, though, after countless attempts to reason with the person, I generally lose it. When that happens, it gets really, really ugly, and I end up hating myself for my complete lack of self-control. ;)
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
I can't wait to hear what they are. ;)
Well, Jesus said, "He who does believe in me is condemned."
So the first tenet would be believing in Jesus Christ.

The epistles say we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by our good deeds.
So the second tenet would be that our good works will not get us into heaven, only Jesus' "good work" on the cross will get us to heaven, by faith in it. (Rom 3:25)

Jesus says that those who truly believe in him will obey his commands.
So the third tenet would be true saving faith is evidenced by obedience to Jesus commands. Disregard for his commands is evidence of false faith.

That should just about do it for basic tenets according to the NT.
 
In this particular case, I like referring to the Disciples of Christ who proclaim only Christ Jesus as the Saviour and He is the guide for all Christians... other than that, they reject creeds of all kinds.

For me, anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, regardless of denomination, is a Christian, and exclusively so. This would include Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints. Muslims also believe in Jesus, but he is eclipsed by the prophet Muhammad.

And Faith without Works is dead.

Anything beyond belief in Jesus Christ is debatable. Even Scriptural canon is debatable!
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
I may have done this before, but I thought it was time to address it again. I used to post at various Christian forums, and there were always several Christians on them who would always presume that someone "wasn't a true Christian" if someone did not agree with them on certain points (including The Trinity, OSAS (once saved, always saved), and a lot more).
I would attempt to tell them that we could live with the differences in our faith, as long as we followed Jesus and His commands, just to be told that I wasn't a true Christian, either.

That kind of stuff made me really angry. I stopped posting at all these forums and the only religious forum I still post at is this one.

Don't you agree that it is presumptuous to tell a person that they are not a "true Christian" if you don't agree with all the same tenets? Have you had this happen to you? How do you address with those who say such things?

It is presumptuous, but the tenets of our faith do count for something.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
It is generally agreed upon that there are five basic doctines one must believe to be a true Christian.
1. God is triune, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - the Trinity.
2. The person of Jesus Christ. 100% human, 100% divine.
3. The second coming. Jesus Christ is physically returning to earth to reign, rule, and judge.
4. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.
5.The scripture. It is the verbal, plenary, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, inspired(God-breathed), written self-disclosure of God.
Eventually a Christian should come to understand that "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture; unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit or traditions of men."
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
It is generally agreed upon that there are five basic doctines one must believe to be a true Christian.
1. God is triune, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - the Trinity.
2. The person of Jesus Christ. 100% human, 100% divine.
3. The second coming. Jesus Christ is physically returning to earth to reign, rule, and judge.
4. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.
5.The scripture. It is the verbal, plenary, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, inspired(God-breathed), written self-disclosure of God.
Eventually a Christian should come to understand that "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture; unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit or traditions of men."

Those are called the fundamentals, and those who hold them have become known as "fundamentalists."
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It is generally agreed upon that there are five basic doctines one must believe to be a true Christian.
1. God is triune, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - the Trinity.
2. The person of Jesus Christ. 100% human, 100% divine.
3. The second coming. Jesus Christ is physically returning to earth to reign, rule, and judge.
4. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.
5.The scripture. It is the verbal, plenary, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, inspired(God-breathed), written self-disclosure of God.
Eventually a Christian should come to understand that "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture; unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit or traditions of men."
Those things are generally agreed upon by the people who believe them. Personally, I don't accept three of your five points and I'm as Christian as you are.
 
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roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
It is generally agreed upon that there are five basic doctines one must believe to be a true Christian.
1. God is triune, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - the Trinity.
2. The person of Jesus Christ. 100% human, 100% divine.
3. The second coming. Jesus Christ is physically returning to earth to reign, rule, and judge.
4. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.
5.The scripture. It is the verbal, plenary, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, inspired(God-breathed), written self-disclosure of God.
Eventually a Christian should come to understand that "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture; unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit or traditions of men."

Excellent doctrines to be believed but We first must believe and recieve
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Than John states:

We are to test the spirits as well
1 John 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I think the following verse helps my case a bit:

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man who shall do a mighty work in my name, and be able quickly to speak evil of me.
Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is for us.
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
I don't like to presume to call someone Christian or not. I don't think it is my place. However, I think that many of us who consider ourselves "Christian" are not nearly as Christian as we would like to think. Just as has been pointed out, evil works is a sign of false faith, or faith in the wrong things. Faith in Jesus Christ always results in good fruits. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I think the ultimate test of whether or not someone is a Christian, is what do they think about and do on their own time, when no one else is listening or watching. Do they seek to serve others and build up the Lord's Kingdom? Or do they seek their own pleasure? What motivates your actions? What is your purpose in life? Do you seek your own will, or the will of him that sent you?
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I don't like to presume to call someone Christian or not. I don't think it is my place. However, I think that many of us who consider ourselves "Christian" are not nearly as Christian as we would like to think. Just as has been pointed out, evil works is a sign of false faith, or faith in the wrong things. Faith in Jesus Christ always results in good fruits. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I think the ultimate test of whether or not someone is a Christian, is what do they think about and do on their own time, when no one else is listening or watching. Do they seek to serve others and build up the Lord's Kingdom? Or do they seek their own pleasure? What motivates your actions? What is your purpose in life? Do you seek your own will, or the will of him that sent you?

We, as Christians, know that we are not perfect. We know that we are forgiven. And only God can see what's in our hearts. So, only God would know who a true Christians in his or her heart would be.
 
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