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Jesus a Child Killer?

......If God, contrary to secular popular opinion, and apparently yours,is actually as he is portrayed in scripture, loving, forgiving,patient,kind,infinite in wisdom , all knowing, glorious in splendor, matchless in majesty,abounding in mercy, eternal in existence...is it possible that finite beings, such as yourself are not qualified to assess a infinite God such as He and therefore unable to comprehended His action motives,judgements and purposes and render Him or His works evil.

Would you call someone who starved children to death evil? Would you call someone who purposely infected millions with crippling, painful, fatal diseases evil? Would you call someone who built a torture chamber to torture people who didn't worship them evil? No? Then you and I must have vastly different definitions for what evil is.


1Cr 2:14But the natural man(man without God) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Sure, the god of the bible is loving, forgiving, and kind just like Hitler was loving, forgiving, and kind. If you end up on their $%*! list watch your back or your gonna be slung into an oven.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
absolutely

different religions have different gods in my opinion

only religion can justify a mass murderer and make him there king

I disagree. There have been many murderous kings in reality who have been revered by the community or nation. There have been many political leaders in general who hold that status. You can justify anything if you feel there is a worthy enough cause or with enough propaganda.
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
Are you really interested in understanding the context of verses such as this or are they just spoken of in just.

Of course... I wouldn't mind an explaination from a different source, or point of view. I like learning new things.

Your view is valid, but could it be your finite conclusion is based on emotion, a personal belief or should I say,disbelief, misinterpratation,confusion to the context of scriptures,anger and ingnorance to the whole matter of the truth of God and his word.

Maybe, but you can't prove that. Your view of the Bible is different than mine. How do you even know that your belief is right and mine is wrong? I'm not stating anything bad about anyone who believes in the Bible... The Bible mainly teaches good morals and such but there are still some things in the Bible no one can explain because they don't make sense. I posted this thread because I was curious as to what people thought the verse meant.

......If God, contrary to secular popular opinion, and apparently yours,is actually as he is portrayed in scripture, loving, forgiving,patient,kind,infinite in wisdom , all knowing, glorious in splendor, matchless in majesty,abounding in mercy, eternal in existence...is it possible that finite beings, such as yourself are not qualified to assess a infinite God such as He and therefore unable to comprehended His action motives,judgements and purposes and render Him or His works evil.

I don't really understand what you are asking... may you please re-word?

Jesus spoke to his disciples in this regard, stating those outside the group of followers who have faith in God through belief in Christ are blind and deaf to the things of God......let me pull it up here......
Matt 13:11 Then he explained to them, "You have been permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others have not. 12 To those who are open to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But to those who are not listening, even what they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I tell these stories, because people see what I do, but they don't really see. They hear what I say, but they don't really hear, and they don't understand. 14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, which says:

Before you get to the prophecy of Isaiah... One thing... what exactly is going to be taken from everyone who don't listen? The only thing I can think of is the key to Heaven... Do you think anything in our lives other than that would be taken from those people? I don't 100% believe that Jesus was the Son of God (though believe it a possibility) and nothing has been taken from me... A lot of wonderful things have happened in my life. My life is wonderful and I really am quite enjoying it. Since I don't believe, why is my life not horrible? Sure things are hard but I let that go and try harder to make my life better (which works by the way ;)). I don't blame the problems in my life on God... I blame myself for allowing my life to be a certain way. I do understand this verse... Those people who listen but don't understand are not to be punished... they are to be taught... maybe that is why I haven't been punished... because I am searching. But still... I still don't believe some things. God should know that and should understand that those beliefs may not change. Yet... my life is wonderful still. Why? Why does God not punish me?

`You will hear my words,but you will not understand; you will see what I do but you will not perceive its meaning.15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,and their ears cannot hear,and they have closed their eyes-so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,and their hearts cannot understand,and they cannot turn to meand let me heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 I assure you, many prophets and godly people have longed to see and hear what you have seen and heard, but they could not.

Why can't some of those people see or hear? I would think they made that choice not to see or hear... it's not that they can't, it's because they don't choose to.

1Cr 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.But God hath revealed [them] unto us( Christians,those who believe in and recieve Christ) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:14But the natural man( man without God) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I may not understand some things but maybe that's because there is a reason why they are difficult to grasp... It's very difficult for me to believe every single thing the Bible says to me. You can throw out these verses all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the Bible has been re-written, changed, and re-vamped for centuries. If I had the abililty to read the original in its FULL context, I probably wouldn't think twice about it.

I am very glad you made a reply to my thread though. I listened to your explaination and tried to understand it the best I could.
 

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
Are you really interested in understanding the context of verses such as this or are they just spoken of in just.
Your view is valid, but could it be your finite conclusion is based on emotion, a personal belief or should I say,disbelief, misinterpratation,confusion to the context of scriptures,anger and ingnorance to the whole matter of the truth of God and his word.
......If God, contrary to secular popular opinion, and apparently yours,is actually as he is portrayed in scripture, loving, forgiving,patient,kind,infinite in wisdom , all knowing, glorious in splendor, matchless in majesty,abounding in mercy, eternal in existence...is it possible that finite beings, such as yourself are not qualified to assess a infinite God such as He and therefore unable to comprehended His action motives,judgements and purposes and render Him or His works evil.

Jesus spoke to his disciples in this regard, stating those outside the group of followers who have faith in God through belief in Christ are blind and deaf to the things of God......let me pull it up here......
Matt 13:11 Then he explained to them, "You have been permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others have not. 12 To those who are open to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But to those who are not listening, even what they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I tell these stories, because people see what I do, but they don't really see. They hear what I say, but they don't really hear, and they don't understand. 14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, which says:

`You will hear my words,but you will not understand; you will see what I do but you will not perceive its meaning.15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,and their ears cannot hear,and they have closed their eyes-so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,and their hearts cannot understand,and they cannot turn to meand let me heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 I assure you, many prophets and godly people have longed to see and hear what you have seen and heard, but they could not.


1Cr 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.But God hath revealed [them] unto us( Christians,those who believe in and recieve Christ) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:14But the natural man( man without God) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

Oh yes very loving and peaceful... :rolleyes:... not!
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Remember what I said earlier about certain OP titles being used as bait?

Well, Dezzie was completely on the wrong track, but there is a rather strong tradition in early Christianity which says that Jesus did kill a child:

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, First Greek Form (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
3. And the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a willow branch, and let out the waters which Jesus had collected. And Jesus, seeing what was done, was angry, and said to him: O wicked, impious, and foolish! what harm did the pools and the waters do to thee? Behold, even now thou shalt be dried up like a tree, and thou shalt not bring forth either leaves, or root,2 or fruit. And straightway that boy was quite dried up. And Jesus departed, and went to Joseph's house. But the parents of the boy that had been dried up took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and reproached him because, said they, thou hast such a child doing such things.3
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
This is not canonical.

Are you just an atheist posing as a Christian?

Of course it's not canonical. But that doesn't mean that a lot of early Christians weren't using it.

It is preserved in the church fathers as a Christian document from the first few centuries of Christianity. It was excluded from the canon only because it was not considered apostolic and it was not used in worship - for reasons that are obvious.
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
You've done an exceptionally poor job with this one.

The passage is referring to the final judgment of Jezebel, a symbolic prophetess, and the passage has nothing to do with Jesus killing children.

If you want a story about Jesus killing children, there is one in the infancy narratives. You can look that up in wikipedia.

Rev 2:20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Rev 2:21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.

Rev 2:22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.

Rev 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Why would the children be put to death? The way I am understanding the passage is this... someone tolerated Jezebel, some "Prophetess" that commited adultery and gave sacraficial offerings to idols. From then on it talks about the punishments... so, why the children?
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
Well, Dezzie was completely on the wrong track, but there is a rather strong tradition in early Christianity which says that Jesus did kill a child:

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, First Greek Form (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

I may be on the wrong track because I don't understand the passage... but is that not why you ask questions? That was the whole part of the thread... I wanted to see what you guys thought about the passages meaning and also possibly help me understand it.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
God was taking the lives of children even way back in the old testament -
and will resurrect every last one of them.

Buncha kids in Sodom, etc...

Then there was Elisha -cursed the kids and a she-bear tore them up.

etc., etc....

Elijah toasting those sent by the king with fire from heaven -Samson, etc.. etc.. -not kids, but why quibble?

..and if you think that stuff is bad, read the verses following this one.... says people are gonna eat their kids...

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee...........

Harsh? Yes.
Necessary? Yes.
Temporary? Yes.

He will make all things new, but we must learn some very serious lessons before being allowed into eternity and given great power.
Explain how those that have passed will learn "lessons"?
 

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
I may be on the wrong track because I don't understand the passage... but is that not why you ask questions? That was the whole part of the thread... I wanted to see what you guys thought about the passages meaning and also possibly help me understand it.
Don't let them get to you, their interprutation isn't the right one. They just want it to be, your interprutation is just fine. If they have the right to interpurerate then so do yoo and I. I see it the same way, they can view their bolagne anyway they want. Jesus was obviously a very twisted person...:rolleyes:
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
Don't let them get to you, their interprutation isn't the right one. They just want it to be, your interprutation is just fine. If they have the right to interpurerate then so do yoo and I. I see it the same way, they can view their bolagne anyway they want. Jesus was obviously a very twisted person...:rolleyes:

lol I'm just trying to understand their interpretation of this passage... I see evil in it but yet they don't. I'm trying to understand their views...
 

MW0082

Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
lol I'm just trying to understand their interpretation of this passage... I see evil in it but yet they don't. I'm trying to understand their views...
They don't see evil because to them Jesus and God are perfect. So they "interpurate" it as something different than what it actually is to make themselves feel better.

It's obvious god was a spiteful murdering bigot from the OT, and they can change their views but it won't change mine....:rolleyes:
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Explain how those that have passed will learn "lessons"?

Actually, many who have been killed by God -especially children -do not have to face what they would if they were not dead. The dead don't learn while dead -but the next instant of their consciousness will be when resurrected (no matter how many years have passed) -and they will then learn the things of God in a better time.

The kids of Sodom and Gomorrah missed out on these sorts of lessons......
this happened as two angels were sent to Lot to warn him to take his family elsewhere.....Note: "know them" at the end of the last verse means sexually... they were actually about to try to make it with angels... Lot offered his daughters instead -knowing they were angels -which was not a wise move and didn't come to pass -but that's another post.

Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Gen 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

The lessons are mostly for the living, though even the dead will benefit from the lessons of man's history eventually ...but sometimes the dead are better off than if alive.... especially since they will be resurrected.

Technically, God does "evil" in a literal sense -you are absolutely correct -he is even quoted as claiming responsibilty for its existence....
but he is never unrighteous -he never does evil in a spirituall sense. He has power over life and death -and his decisions are based on the overall well-being of all -focusing primarily on their future and potential to become like God.

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jer 21:10 For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.
Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
 
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A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I may be on the wrong track because I don't understand the passage... but is that not why you ask questions? That was the whole part of the thread... I wanted to see what you guys thought about the passages meaning and also possibly help me understand it.

What don't you understand?

In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Jesus kills a kid for messing up water that he was playing with. If you read father on, other people get maimed for making him angry.

But in the passage that you quoted from the OP, the author is referring to someone who died hundred of years beforehand - an enemy of Israel in the OT. Her children are her followers - those who continue to persecute Israel. It's not actual kids....
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
But in the passage that you quoted from the OP, the author is referring to someone who died hundred of years beforehand - an enemy of Israel in the OT. Her children are her followers - those who continue to persecute Israel. It's not actual kids....

Gotcha... why did the author not just say that? Why use the term children... followers would have made a lot more sense :yes:
 

truseeker

Member
Jesus is talking about the false churches that exist. There is the universal ( catholic ) church and her children the protestant denominations that mainly came out from the universal church. They are all following false teachings and will be destroyed.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Gotcha... why did the author not just say that? Why use the term children... followers would have made a lot more sense :yes:

Because the original readers already knew what he was talking about. They would have instantly known who Jezebel was and her role in Hebrew heritage.
 
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