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I've had it up to here...

with people trying to disprove science with religion and vice/versa. Science is not diametricly opposed to religion. Evolution and Creation are not mutually exclusive. Religion is here to tell us why we exist, it gives us purpose. Science is concerned with how the world and the universe works. How and Why are two seperate questions. We cannot understand our existance without addressing both questions. Science is not equipped to tell us why we are here, and Religion is woefully inadequate in telling us how it all works.

Lets talk about evolution. Evolution is fact. the mechanisms of evolution are debated, but the fact of it is not because evolution is observable. fossil record has traced birds back to dinosaurs. the archaeoperyx is a creature with scales, teeth, and feathers. If we move to the present day you see animals like the ostridge and emu. they're built to run exactly like dinosaurs were. There are also some species of birds alive today that in the embryonic state they start to develop small shap teeth that do not mature. That in it self is a 'missing link' between the birds of today and dinosaurs of the past. We can see the changes in species millions of years back. We can even look up at the stars and calculate how old they are based on distance and the speed of light.

I've said it before on these forums:

G-d would not create physcial laws and natural systems if He weren't going to use them.

If you want to get theological about it. it makes sence. Say G-d creates life and His goal is to create a being in his image. Through His Will he made the conditions just right for life to occur, this process could take billions of years (in our perception of time) for all the right conditions to occur for life to happen. Once He creates life it still takes hundreds of millions of years for conditions to become such that life can change. The conditions for a single cell to become a multicell organism is probably more complex than the first spark of life. Once life had the ability to change G-d let it do so wildly. The pre-cambrian period had the most dirverse life than any other age. G-d lets the ones with the most potential develop and grow and most of the other life die off in an extinction event. There is evidance of six or seven extinction (add one if you count recent human activity) events in paeleologic record. Every time an extinction event has occured the life that has made it through has become far more complex and developed, but less diverse. Now through millions of years of directing life the first being capable of comprehending G-d arises from all this life that has developed behind him. Perhaps Adam was the first human that was self aware.

We have all this physcial evidence for evolution, it's all around us if we use our G-d given brains we can see it.

G-d writes his prophesy in earth itself as well as in the minds of man. With more insight we have in our physcial world, into how everything works can bring us more appreciation of the divine.

(If any of this is familiar it's cause I took the meat of it from some old posts, my arguement's not changed :))
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
goodjewishboy said:
...Science is not equipped to tell us why we are here, and Religion is woefully inadequate in telling us how it all works...
'Nuff said. Kudos and Frubals for being able to see the big picture.
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joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I don't see the missing links, there should be tons. The first chapter of Genesis "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Every subsequent day of creation ends with, "And the evening and the morning were the 2nd day." "And the evening and the morning were the 3rd day." etc. Thus he established what a day was-and re-established every day of creation. So according to Genesis, and God, these were literal days.
He could have done it in a split second, or a long time, but He did it as a pattern for us to rest on the seventh day, and said that's why He did it.
And I don't buy the gap theory because He called his creation "very good" Genesis 1:31. It also says the animals ate the green herb for meat Genesis 1:30. Sin had not entered, and there was no death. Only with sin did death come. You cannot have a "very good" creation with millions of years of death. When it comes to religion, I will stick to the Bible and sit back and let the scientists try to figure it out, smiling.
 

ch'ang

artist in training
My belief is that they should not contradict if they really followed only those how and why questions but most religions do venture off into the how question and people believe and so they find religion and science in contention simply because religion has passed its boundaries
 

ch'ang

artist in training
At the risk of sounding like a fool, to me you don't need physical evidence for evolution you simply need logic, knowledge of what DNA does and how it works and this quote "Is it so hard to imagine that those animals with more favorable traits will survive and reproduce?"- Charles Darwin
 

Ulver

Active Member
joeboonda said:
Still blows my mind that people still believe in evolution, it really does!

Because we all don't live in the Bible-belt, watch Fox news and CBN and voted for George Bush.

I generalised a LOT there and I'm not saying you fall under all that. I'm saying the fundamentalist movements of christianity in America, whom are the biggest supporters against evolution, tend to have those traits.

I grew up mostly in Maryland, watch MSNBC and voted for Kerry.

np: Anthrax- Madhouse
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Cathecism:
31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

God is the author of both. The interpretations of man in regards to the cosmos changes. Both in the natural sciences and in trying to understand subjective realities. I only see evolution as another form of reaching God. Although I will note that is the harder way..:D

~Victor
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
joeboonda said:
Still blows my mind that people still believe in evolution, it really does!
I take it that is tongue in cheek ?
Do you mind making that clearer ? I really am interested to know if that was a joke, or if you really are serious ?:)
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
Sorry, but I don't see the missing links, there should be tons. The first chapter of Genesis "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Every subsequent day of creation ends with, "And the evening and the morning were the 2nd day." "And the evening and the morning were the 3rd day." etc. Thus he established what a day was-and re-established every day of creation. So according to Genesis, and God, these were literal days.
He could have done it in a split second, or a long time, but He did it as a pattern for us to rest on the seventh day, and said that's why He did it.
And I don't buy the gap theory because He called his creation "very good" Genesis 1:31. It also says the animals ate the green herb for meat Genesis 1:30. Sin had not entered, and there was no death. Only with sin did death come. You cannot have a "very good" creation with millions of years of death. When it comes to religion, I will stick to the Bible and sit back and let the scientists try to figure it out, smiling.
Im sorry Joe, please clarify something for me. You say that animals did not evolve at all because god called his end product (aka animals) "very good". You also state that all animals only ate plants when they were in paradise. Why is it then that animals today can not eat plants to sustain life. If they were on an all plant diet they would die. Even in your idea of the bible it shows evolution. These animals that only ate plants would have had to evolve into something that was able to eat meat in order for your story to work with what we see today.

Or am I interpreting the bible too literally here? I do that sometimes with works of fiction :162:
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
There's a LOT of animals that don't eat other animals, and I don' t appreciate you calling the Bible a work of fiction, and the Bible, not me said the beasts of the field ate the herbs of the field. The Bible also says that at the end time, the lion will lay down with the lamb and that children wont be afraid of them. How, and how fast God did this, I don't know, but I know what the BIble says, and that is what I go by. You must remember, that Man had to work by the sweat of his brow, thorns and thistles grew up, and they were thrown out of the Garden, so a lot happenned to the creation when it fell, including the plants and animals. Then there was a huge flood not long after. God can do anything in any amount of time, so I will go with the Bible.
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
There's a LOT of animals that don't eat other animals, and I don' t appreciate you calling the Bible a work of fiction, and the Bible, not me said the beasts of the field ate the herbs of the field. The Bible also says that at the end time, the lion will lay down with the lamb and that children wont be afraid of them. How, and how fast God did this, I don't know, but I know what the BIble says, and that is what I go by. You must remember, that Man had to work by the sweat of his brow, thorns and thistles grew up, and they were thrown out of the Garden, so a lot happenned to the creation when it fell, including the animals. God can do anything in any amount of time, so I will go with the Bible.
So what do you say when presented with all the facts of evolution? Why are there "missing links"? Why are there dinosaur fossil records?

And are you saying that in the "fall" god decided to change the animals so they would all the sudden eat each other?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Ryan2065 said:
So what do you say when presented with all the facts of evolution? Why are there "missing links"? Why are there dinosaur fossil records?

And are you saying that in the "fall" god decided to change the animals so they would all the sudden eat each other?
Facts of evolution, phh, evolution is a religion. And I have yet to see a bonefide missing link. And I do believe in dinosaurs, you know they co-existed with man, right, they found cave paintings of dinosaurs, and there is much evidence of dinosaurs. The fall was the fall. Sin entered the world, and by sin death. God permitted it to happen, so we may have free will.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
No missing links? Come on, where's the microraptor love?

I mean, just look at it! Typical raptor claws on the feet, a mouth instead of a beak, long raptorish tail, and fully formed flight feathers on the wings. A feathered, gliding (if not actually flying) dino. You can't explain that away.
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
Facts of evolution, phh, evolution is a religion. And I have yet to see a bonefide missing link. And I do believe in dinosaurs, you know they co-existed with man, right, they found cave paintings of dinosaurs, and there is much evidence of dinosaurs. The fall was the fall. Sin entered the world, and by sin death. God permitted it to happen, so we may have free will.
So you are saying that ALL animals (including man) were created at the same time? How can you account for fossil records that show that dinosaurs lived longer than the humans? We have dinosaur bones that date far earlier than any human fossils. Saying that you have cave paintings might say that dinosaurs lived when the first humans lived, but there is no evidance to say that humans lived when dinosaurs first came about.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
joeboonda said:
Facts of evolution, phh, evolution is a religion.
Hmmm? How so?

Joe said:
And I have yet to see a bonefide missing link.
Missing by definition is unavailable. If you mean transitional, then I'd say all fossils are transitional.

Joe said:
And I do believe in dinosaurs, you know they co-existed with man, right, they found cave paintings of dinosaurs, and there is much evidence of dinosaurs.
What did the dinosaurs like the raptors use those huge claws and sharp teeth for when only vegetation was on the menu? Were plants a lot faster back then?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
joeboonda said:
There's a LOT of animals that don't eat other animals, and I don' t appreciate you calling the Bible a work of fiction, ...
That's fair. I don't appreciate you claiming otherwise without evidence - in fact, in denial of the evidence.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
joeboonda said:
Facts of evolution, phh, evolution is a religion. And I have yet to see a bonefide missing link. And I do believe in dinosaurs, you know they co-existed with man, right, they found cave paintings of dinosaurs, and there is much evidence of dinosaurs. The fall was the fall. Sin entered the world, and by sin death. God permitted it to happen, so we may have free will.
Ah, although you haven't replied to my question, you have clarified the point in subsequent posts.

Quote "Facts of evolution, phh, evolution is a religion" - so, let me get this right;
From the above, reading between the lines, you are implying that evolution is fiction, but that religion (yours) is a truism. You can't have it both ways, you know, one religion being fictitious, the next, yours being truth.
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