Pathway to Salvation

[keeperoftheprison]

I opt for oblivion, I can't say the idea of heaven does it for me.

I dont believe that is true or you wouldn't be on a religious forum. Why waste time?

 

[Boethiah]

Well, there are contradictions. Beginning with salvation, different parts of the Bible say different things. This may or may not be a shot at validity depending on how one looks at it, but the question is raised: which is right?

Faith Only
Romans 3:28 (King James Version) "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Galatians 2:16 (King James Version) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Works and Faith
James 2:17 (King James Version) "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

(More in James 2:20, James 2:26)

Salvation by Confessing Sins

Acts 2:38 (King James Version) "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 3:19 (King James Version) "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
____
All of these verses say different things about how one achieves salvation, and some even contradict others. The Bible is several hundred years old and has endured editing, translations, etc. I believe it is the word of God, but the word of God can become corrupted by humans especially if it has been left to us for so long. So, to say that the Bible is infallible would seem like a misstep. The Bible still has its worth. There are just a number of contradictions that bring its infallibility into question.

 

[waitasec]

God does love us unconditionally. It is written that it hurts God when people do the wrong things. It hurt Jesus to see people die even when he knew that they were going to Heaven.
I do not have a clue about that verse. Can you tell me where it is written?

can i tell you were what is written?

where does it say god loves us unconditionally, don't use jn3:16
because there is a condition in that verse, lets see if you can figure that out

 

[keeperoftheprison]

I read my Bible daily and Jesus comes over as altogether human to me with faults and failings just like the rest of us.

If you read with a certain opinion, then you will find what you are looking for. I do not know how you see faults and failings though. Where are you reading?

 

[ATAT]

Have you seriously read the book Of Matthew and not read Jesus say that he is the son of God? Are you quoting Jesus and accepting repentance without believing that he is the son of God?

Just curious, which verse are you talking about? Let's have a look.

 

[ATAT]

(hint, look at Mat 26, but please include both verse 63 AND verse 64)

Also note in Matthew:

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.


Job 25:
4 How then can a man be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
6 how much less man, who is but a maggot—
a son of man, who is only a worm!"

Please note: There are two points in play:

1. Where does Jesus say that 'Son of God' means 'God'.
2. Where does Jesus say I have to believe Jesus is God to be forgiven.

Even if Jesus is God, that doesn't mean I have to believe it to be forgiven. It could be that Jesus is God and I don't have to believe that Jesus is God. (John 3:16 says I have to believe in Jesus, not that Jesus is God. At a minimum, John 3:16 requires I believe what Jesus said. Jesus taught, over and over again, to be forgiven, I must forgive others. Never does he say I must believe he is God to be forgiven.) Of course, the Jewish scriptures taught that God made us human beings, we are all God's children, Jesus echos that idea, of course, since Jesus was Jewish and learned the Jewish scriptures as context. 'Son of man', 'son of God' always is referring to God's children, mankind. The Romans thought differently, Julius Caesar, just a mere 30 years prior, was killed for making that claim, because it means something else to the Romans. Roman belief at the time was that gods had literal children. Their gods could have real relations with women and produce children of gods. Romans didn't like it when a person claimed to be a son of a god. That could get you killed. Another rebel leader in Judea? Nip that in the bud!

 

[waitasec]

God does love us unconditionally. It is written that it hurts God when people do the wrong things. It hurt Jesus to see people die even when he knew that they were going to Heaven.
I do not have a clue about that verse. Can you tell me where it is written?

mark 7:17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

 

[keeperoftheprison]

Well, there are contradictions. Beginning with salvation, different parts of the Bible say different things. This may or may not be a shot at validity depending on how one looks at it, but the question is raised: which is right?

Faith Only
Romans 3:28 (King James Version) "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Galatians 2:16 (King James Version) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Works and Faith
James 2:17 (King James Version) "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

(More in James 2:20, James 2:26)

Salvation by Confessing Sins

Acts 2:38 (King James Version) "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 3:19 (King James Version) "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
____
All of these verses say different things about how one achieves salvation, and some even contradict others. The Bible is several hundred years old and has endured editing, translations, etc. I believe it is the word of God, but the word of God can become corrupted by humans especially if it has been left to us for so long. So, to say that the Bible is infallible would seem like a misstep. The Bible still has its worth. There are just a number of contradictions that bring its infallibility into question.

Ok I'm gonna answer these one at a time:

Romans you need to understand the context. Read up a verse and then go to the end of the chapter. The discussion is about Law and Faith. Verse 31 sums it up with saying that the law is established through faith. The laws being discussed is circumcision. This is because Jews are becoming Christians and they are figuring out if Jews still need circumcision and if Gentils need it to become Christian.

Galatians is very similar in the respect that they are still comparing Jews to Gentiles. Read on to the first few verses in chapter three . Faith is important and the law is important. You cant just have one or the other. James is the example of that being so.

Acts: The only people who received the gift of the Holy Ghost are the Apostles and the people that they laid hands on. The Apostles are the only people who can pass the gift on. If you go through and pay very close attention to the pronouns used in the first couple of chapters it will be easier to find.

I agree about the translations. That is why there is all of the confusion. The American Standard Version, King James Version, and the New King James Versions are the only Bibles that I have found to be worth the paper they are printed on. The big thing is that if one point is made in the Bible in Acts does not mean that another point is wrong in Galatians just as an example. If Jesus directed his Apostles to do something, it should be done without exception. Jesus and his apostles started the new law and did not discuss all of it every time they talked. Just like we aren't mentioning the last supper. That doesn't mean that it isn't relevant.

 

[luvuyesua]

I speaking for myself, I would never want to obey my father, the word of God, Jesus, or the holy spirit, because I thought I was going to hell. I do them and agree with the word, because i love him adore him, recognise who he is and who we are, bow to him, know he is my creator, have lived personally miracles from him.
many may not respect our father, but many dont respect their parents anyway. baptism, some can see it as just dunking of the head, when infact it has a purpose, its a symbol, and many dont agree to believe its reason nor understand it. others want to just be good people without God


may your thoughts be blessed

 

[luvuyesua]

the path you speak of is optional

 

[keeperoftheprison]

mark 7:17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

That is saying that those particular things are unclean or defiles a man. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man." That does not mean that those are the only things that come out of man.

 

[Misty]

If you read with a certain opinion, then you will find what you are looking for. I do not know how you see faults and failings though. Where are you reading?

I read the NIV. For starters, Jesus had a temper, he said silly and irresponsible things like leaving your family to follow him. He somehow managed to chase a swineherd over a cliff (I don't buy demons at all). He comes over as a hotheaded young man with charisma.

 

[keeperoftheprison]

I speaking for myself, I would never want to obey my father, the word of God, Jesus, or the holy spirit, because I thought I was going to hell. I do them and agree with the word, because i love him adore him, recognise who he is and who we are, bow to him, know he is my creator, have lived personally miracles from him.
many may not respect our father, but many dont respect their parents anyway. baptism, some can see it as just dunking of the head, when infact it has a purpose, its a symbol, and many dont agree to believe its reason nor understand it. others want to just be good people without God


may your thoughts be blessed

Spoken wonderfully!!!

 

[keeperoftheprison]

I read the NIV. For starters, Jesus had a temper, he said silly and irresponsible things like leaving your family to follow him. He somehow managed to chase a swineherd over a cliff (I don't buy demons at all). He comes over as a hotheaded young man with charisma.

The NIV is your first mistake. Try the New King James Version. I haven't read the NIV in a long time, but do remember some very stupid mistakes. I wish my temper was as good as Jesus.

 

[waitasec]

Ok I'm gonna answer these one at a time:

Romans you need to understand the context. Read up a verse and then go to the end of the chapter. The discussion is about Law and Faith. Verse 31 sums it up with saying that the law is established through faith. The laws being discussed is circumcision. This is because Jews are becoming Christians and they are figuring out if Jews still need circumcision and if Gentils need it to become Christian.

Galatians is very similar in the respect that they are still comparing Jews to Gentiles. Read on to the first few verses in chapter three . Faith is important and the law is important. You cant just have one or the other. James is the example of that being so.

Acts: The only people who received the gift of the Holy Ghost are the Apostles and the people that they laid hands on. The Apostles are the only people who can pass the gift on. If you go through and pay very close attention to the pronouns used in the first couple of chapters it will be easier to find.

I agree about the translations. That is why there is all of the confusion. The American Standard Version, King James Version, and the New King James Versions are the only Bibles that I have found to be worth the paper they are printed on. The big thing is that if one point is made in the Bible in Acts does not mean that another point is wrong in Galatians just as an example. If Jesus directed his Apostles to do something, it should be done without exception. Jesus and his apostles started the new law and did not discuss all of it every time they talked. Just like we aren't mentioning the last supper. That doesn't mean that it isn't relevant.

i am sorry i have to bud in here....
are you kidding me? translations? is this for real?
are you speaking of "the eternal word of god"?
Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
why all these excuses?

 

[Father Heathen]

The NIV is your first mistake. Try the New King James Version.

Tell us, what exactly makes the KJV more valid and accurate than other translations?

 

[keeperoftheprison]

i am sorry i have to bud in here....
are you kidding me? translations? is this for real?
are you speaking of "the eternal word of god"?
Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
why all these excuses?

Translations: referring to supposed "Bibles" that are far from the original. I believe in the eternal word of God. There are however been men that have strayed from literally translating. If man tampers with the words written it becomes invalid. You must search for the true meanings of words.

 

[keeperoftheprison]

Tell us, what exactly makes the KJV more valid and accurate than other translations?

Translations originally were being copied word for word to other languages. The NIV does not do that. It adds and takes away from the Bible.

 

[ATAT]

If the bible is correct, then shouldn't someone who believes in Jesus conclude that the way to be forgiven is to forgive others, as Jesus says? (example Mat 18; Mark 11; Luke 6; John 20, etc etc)

Why believe, 'You must believe Jesus is God, your sin atonement sacrifice, to be forgiven.' when Jesus never said that you had to believe that to be forgiven?

Jesus was asked how to pray, he gave an example prayer. That would have been the time to tell. Yet not one word about having to believe Jesus is God, sin atonement sacrifice, to be forgiven.

Contrast with:

Mat 18
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f] 23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
...
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Jesus didn't say, "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice, and confess your sins." He didn't say that at all. Never.

What he did say was all in context, clear, on point, spelled out, with a parable to give as an example explanation, you gotta forgive others to be forgiven. Over and over again, constantly, that's his message.

Jesus goes through great lengths to give this idea, all throughout the Gospels, and here we go and change it all to we gotta believe Jesus is God on the cross.

Shame Jesus never mentioned I have to believe Jesus is God / sacrifice on the cross.

Couldn't he have said it, at least at the end?

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

He practices what he preached.

I forgot one:
John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


Many more like that, in context, on point, clearly stated, with examples.

Nothing about I gotta believe Jesus is God to be forgiven.
Never, 'You must believe I am God your sin atonement to be forgiven.' Not once. I suppose you could clip together a partial idea here and there, stitch them together and come up with anything, but that's not fair, not reasonable, you wouldn't accept anything cut and pasted together like that.

Jesus thought his message of forgiveness was critical? Yes.
Jesus thought he was the new leader, the 'messiah', the 'Christ' (human leader, 'messiah' to save the Jewish people from oppression). Yes.
Thought he was God? No, he tried very hard to be clear about that, that's why he kept referring to himself as 'Son of God', or, most often, 'Son of Man.'

Over and over again, 'Son of Man.' Kind of hard to miss. Nobody else in history does that, but Jesus, in an effort to be clear, calls himself 'Son of Man' over and over again, even though we are all Sons of God. (Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.) (No capital letters in speech.)

Ironic.

 

[waitasec]

That is saying that those particular things are unclean or defiles a man. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man." That does not mean that those are the only things that come out of man.

so if we are not evil, why do we need salvation?