Illegal Immigrants?

[justbehappy]

You know what gets me more than anything? People living in places like Los Angeles, San Antonio, San Diego or any other city with a Spanish orgin and demanding that people there "speak English." That really makes me want to punch myself in the face in hopes of waking up out of this Twilight Zone I keep finding myself in.

I love hearing other languages, and I have absolutely no problem with it, but I think that they should at least know English.
I find that a lot of them don't even want to bother to learn it. My ex's mother, a legal immigrant, never wanted to speak English - not even to me! She insisted that everyone learn Spanish and if they couldn't understand her horrible incorrect English then they were just 'rude.'

 

[justbehappy]

nothing wrong with "the immigrants"

its the fact that they are breaking "the law", thus illegal aliens

what other laws do yo think that its ok to break?

Oh, lots. I think homosexuals should be able to marry, that most drugs should be lega, that the gambling and drinking age should be 18, that abortion should be illegal, that the healthcare and stimulus bills shouldn't have passed, that we shouldn't have income taxes, that the government should not be able to interfere in the economy. Do you want me to continue? There are tons of things I don't agree with that the government does.
Since when did just because something was illegal/legal make it right or wrong?

 

[Zardoz]

I was on board until you get to...

... that abortion should be illegal, ...

Illegal? Is that a typo???

 

[Zardoz]

That fact is that most would be legal if they could.

It would be interesting to see data on how many seek legal immigration then come in illegally when the process gets too frustrating VS those who say "**** that" and just sneak in.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

They cannot qualify for a loan or mortgage. They cannot have a bank account. This creates a situation where they live for many years in very substandard housing - sometimes two and three families in one small ramshackle house. Since they can't get a loan to finance a vehicle, they scrape and save and buy junkers, and bum rides till they can do that - hence the stereotype of six Mexicans crammed into the cab of a truck, with six more riding in the bed.

You should come to Gainesville sometime. The Hispanics all drive nicer cars than I do. Yes, it's usually ones that haven't been here for a while that pile two and three families into a house. That's because they're poor. Not illegal.
Should we get rid of black ghettos and mobile home parks because they're poor, too?

Then, go to some other areas where you have communities of Hispanics that have been here for a while. You'll find the property more kept up and one family living in it. It isn't because they've suddenly become citizens. It's because they've saved their money from their hard work and have improved their quality of life. You know, like the rest of us do.

Because their job prospects are limited by their lack of citizenship, they are naturally limited in their ability to compete on a level playing field for the GOOD jobs that are in this area -and there are a lot of high paying jobs around here that do not require perfect English or a college degree. Usually the Hispanic work ethic is impressive. If they were able to work legally, they could move upward in our local society with ease, just on the merits of their often exemplary work ethic.

Children are allowed to go to public school. They are also allowed to attend college, as long as they pay out of state tuition.

There are large areas of nearly every city and even small town in Texas which are now ghettos.

Take a look around you Kathryn. There are ghettos EVERYWHERE. There are poor people EVERYWHERE. Citizenship does not equal not poor.

These illegal immigrants DO use public resources without paying income taxes. Their children attend public schools while they do not pay property taxes. When they are sick, they go to the emergency rooms and are treated, regardless of their ability or lack thereof to pay.

They use roads and public utilities. These ghettos full of illegal immigrants increase our need for expanded emergency services, such as the police, fire, and paramedic services - all paid for via tax dollars.

Sure. I'll give you income taxes.

But they live in rented homes. You know... those 2 and 3 family homes you were talking about? The persons who own those properties sure as hell pay property taxes don't they?

They also pay sales tax. There's no way to get around this. Go to Wal-Mart in Gainesville, Georgia any day of the week. It will be filled to the brim with Hispanics. They're in there with their 5 person families and 3 families deep housing spending 200-300 dollars on groceries and paying sales tax on every single bit of it.

Last, do you have any idea how many poor citizens also don't pay for medical services? Quite a few.

As for the Arizona law and the myth that it's discriminatory - those who say that, HAVE YOU READ THE LAW? I have, several times. It is NOT discriminatory - in fact, it's wording is LESS discriminatory than current FEDERAL law. It will be absolutely, totally illegal to simply walk up to someone and ask for proof of citizenship. The only time it will be legal to ask for proof of citizenship is when a person is stopped for a VERIFIABLE suspicion of criminal activity.

Yeah, the reason the law is discriminatory is the way that it's applied.

A white guy, roughly age 25 gets pulled over by the police. When asked for his license, he replies that he doesn't have one. They ask him where he's from. He says Quebec. They run a Wanted Person check and also check Interpol. He comes back clear. They can either write him a ticket or they can arrest him for driving without a license (since he can't produce one).

How often do you think an officer is going to ask a 25 year old, white Canadian if he's in the country illegally?

Here's your answer. They're not. That's why the law is racist. It had only one set of people in mind when it was created for implementation.

But...I was there legally. If I had been there illegally, I would not have even filed the police report out of fear of drawing attention to myself. Is that any way to live?

Must be nice to wake up in America and actually trust the police and Army, huh? Hell, I imagine that they think it's nice, too and that's probably part of the reason they're here.

Hispanics file police reports all the time.



The bottom line is this:

Go to Blockbuster. Rent Gangs of New York. Watch it. Then, watch it again.

At the end of the movie, if you find yourself on the side of the Butcher, put your money where your mouth is and go back to the country that the majority of your ancestors came from. Don't give me any mouth about you being 1/1000 part Native American, either. If you go up to the Native American tribe you're claiming and they won't teach you their traditional beliefs and way of life because you're an outsider then you aren't Native American.

If you find yourself on the side of Vallon, then ask yourself why you're being a hypocrite and a racist. Then, ask yourself what the defining line is between "You're in my country illegally so that makes your kids NOT citizens" and "Oh, we're from an Irish family that emigrated in the late 19th century but we've been here for 5 generations so we've acclimated". If there IS a defining line, should illegals just stay under the radar until they've been here for a while, like a lot of our families did?

Last but not least, I would ask that everyone remember what the Statue of Liberty has written upon the tablet she's holding:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[Kathryn]

Oh good grief, does anybody really READ and DIGEST what I write?

Don't cut snippets out of my posts that then distort what I've said.

I am NOT opposed to Hispanics coming here - even in droves - and making a great living, shaping our nation, thriving, or for that matter even DOMINATING the areas that they settle. I'm all for free enterprise and any person's freedom to succeed - within the law. If we're all speaking Spanish twenty years from now and throwing quincinearas for our 15 year old daughters, that's fine by me. Ole!

I am not saying that ghettos (populated by any race) should be obliviated OR ignored. I am not saying we should deport illegal immigrants based on their illegal residency here. I am not blaming Hispanics for ghettos or saying they are irresponsible. And lastly, I am not saying they don't pay some taxes.

In fact, my posts have been full of PRAISE for our Hispanic population and their influence. What I have been saying (repeatedly) is that I am in favor of EASING the process so that more Hispanics can enjoy the rights, and responsibilities, of legal citizenship here in the United States.

As it is now, illegal aliens are DISINFRANCHISED and their needs, talents, and interests are not represented well or supported enough via tax dollars. This increases poverty levels in their communities, in spite of the many services they receive without paying any federal or property taxes. (Don't talk to me about how renters pay property taxes - I believe that if more Hispanics could legally buy a home, they wouldn't crowd up twenty to a small frame house - hence more of them would be paying property taxes which support our local infrastructure). All they are paying now is sales tax - that's not enough to support the needs of their community.

I believe that the vast, vast majority of Hispanics who come here illegally WANT to be full fledged US citizens (if they don't, I've got a problem with them). We should have a system in place which makes this process EASIER for them.

But as a matter of national security, we also need a system in place to track WHO is in this country, and what their background is, and why they are here. The system we have now is BROKEN and the laws which are currently on the books are largely unenforced.

Don't throw that race card at me just because I happen to be white. My family is a huge melting pot of European, African American, Jewish, Korean, Native American, and (gasp) HISPANIC bloodlines. My son is engaged to a beautiful Korean girl and she is going to have to go through a process to become an American citizen. And here is my adorable granddaughter - quite the Hispanic little missy, wouldn't you say?


Her father's family is here legally and they have embraced US culture, while enriching it with their particular traditions and influences - as it should be.

By the way, let me tell you a story about a co worker. Her parents are from Mexico and they moved here illegally when she was a child. Apparently they hooked her up with fake documents, and she had no idea that she was not here legally. She went through school and college, and when she was about to graduate from college, she got a call from the dean questioning her citizenship. This was about twenty years ago so I'm not sure what the law is now - but anyway, because of her illegal status here, she was denied her DEGREE which she had EARNED until she could become a US citizen.

Another example of ridiculousness is this story - and I personally knew the people involved in this case, which made national headlines:

A few years ago, a local Hispanic woman and mother of several children was deported to Mexico for being here illegally. Her parents had moved here from Mexico when she was a child. When she was fifteen, her father had a heart attack and her mother also became too ill to work full time. This young woman went to work and supported her entire family while also attending and graduating high school. She married a US citizen a few years later, and they had several kids together. They are still married. Her children were without exception honor students. Her family never once received any sort of state or federal assistance. She worked full time for a local privately owned company for twenty years. They were home owners and responsible citizens. No one in the family has ever been arrested or convicted of a crime - till now.

She got in some sort of dispute with her cousin, who reported to the government that she was here illegally. She was arrested, tried, and DEPORTED to Mexico - a country she had not lived in since she was about five years old. Our local Catholic bishop and a whole entourage of local people went to Austin to the hearings, and pled her case. Their petitions were denied. Her husband and children had to move to Laredo in order to be able to visit her in Mexico.

These are examples of what I mean by being disenfranchised. I am in favor of EASING the ability of people to move here LEGALLY and to become full fledged citizens.

Hope this clarifies my position. And I've already been to Gainesville, GA by the way - though I don't have to go there to see vibrant Hispanic culture. It's all around me right here in Texas.

 

[Mister_T]

Look, people can speak whatever language they want to. I don't have any problem with signs being in two languages, or pushing 1 for English (or even 2), and especially here in Texas, I think kids should be learning both languages in school. I think 10 years from now, NOT being bilingual is going to be a big disadvantage. I wish, wish, wish I had taken Spanish in school. It would really be helpful to me now.

My point in the earlier post was that the CITY COUNCIL MEETING was being conducted in Spanish. There was no translator - when they lapsed into Spanish, at a city council meeting paid for with Texas tax dollars - and representing a city that is 42 percent NON Hispanic - I think that's a concern.

I don't disagree with you that it is certainly to everyone's benefit if people strive to be bilingual. I encourage it and am working on doing so myself (perhaps even multi-lingual!)

And just to clarify, my reply to Smoke wasn't directed towards you; I read his post and it reminded me of that scenario I outlined previously that I see around here quite often: See where I live, about 75-80% percent of the streets,cities, suburbs etc. Have a Spanish origin and when see people standing on the street corners demanding that the Latino population here speak English, especially in those areas that are predominantly hispanic (85% and up)...well, I mean really I can't put it into words how mind-boggling that is.

 

[Mister_T]

I love hearing other languages, and I have absolutely no problem with it, but I think that they should at least know English.
I find that a lot of them don't even want to bother to learn it. My ex's mother, a legal immigrant, never wanted to speak English - not even to me! She insisted that everyone learn Spanish and if they couldn't understand her horrible incorrect English then they were just 'rude.'

Like I told Kathryn, I certainly think it's to everyone's benefit to be bilingual, but these anti-immigration people standing in cities with Spanish origins, holding up sign something like "No, I will not press '1' for Spanish, YOU press '2' for English," I mean, really it's not hard to see what the driving-force is behind that.

You experience your ex's mother reminds me of my situation with my girlfriend's family: One of my girlfriend's sisters keeps telling me to learn Spanish so I can speak to their family members that don't know English. "How will you speak to them?" she'll often ask me, to which I reply with "how are they going to speak to my family members that don't know Spanish?" Needless to say, that about as far as the conversation goes.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Oh good grief, does anybody really READ and DIGEST what I write?

Don't cut snippets out of my posts that then distort what I've said.

I didn't distort anything. I quoted you direct.

I am NOT opposed to Hispanics coming here - even in droves - and making a great living, shaping our nation, thriving, or for that matter even DOMINATING the areas that they settle. I'm all for free enterprise and any person's freedom to succeed - within the law. If we're all speaking Spanish twenty years from now and throwing quincinearas for our 15 year old daughters, that's fine by me. Ole!

Okay. Why start your previous post stating that you're now a minority in Texas?

I am not saying that ghettos (populated by any race) should be obliviated OR ignored. I am not saying we should deport illegal immigrants based on their illegal residency here. I am not blaming Hispanics for ghettos or saying they are irresponsible. And lastly, I am not saying they don't pay some taxes.

Okay. Well, this is what you said:

There are large areas of nearly every city and even small town in Texas which are now ghettos.

The reason they're ghettos is that Hispanics who come here are dirt poor. That's why they're here in the first place.

In fact, my posts have been full of PRAISE for our Hispanic population and their influence. What I have been saying (repeatedly) is that I am in favor of EASING the process so that more Hispanics can enjoy the rights, and responsibilities, of legal citizenship here in the United States.

I saw you appreciate their work ethic, and then complain about them using public roads and medical services without paying taxes or having insurance.

I believe that the vast, vast majority of Hispanics who come here illegally WANT to be full fledged US citizens (if they don't, I've got a problem with them). We should have a system in place which makes this process EASIER for them.

I agree with you on this, but this isn't what I gleaned from your previous. You might want to separate your wanting of them to have an easier path to citizenship and your complaining that some of them use public and medical services and create ghettos and make your race a minority in Texas. The two don't mesh very well.

If that was your roundabout way of supporting them then I apologize for being harsh with you specifically, but what I said as a whole still stands.

I'd wager that the reason most of them don't try to enter the country legally is twofold:

1) Time
2) Money

They're very poor. That's why they're here in the first place. They don't have months and years to sit around and wonder if their application gets accepted or not. Baby needs food, wife needs clothes, and they need running water NOW. Not when it's convenient with INS.

Don't throw that race card at me just because I happen to be white. My family is a huge melting pot of European, African American, Jewish, Korean, Native American, and (gasp) HISPANIC bloodlines. My son is engaged to a beautiful Korean girl and she is going to have to go through a process to become an American citizen. And here is my adorable granddaughter - quite the Hispanic little missy, wouldn't you say?

And yet you still give your support of legislation that had one specific race in mind when it was created?

 

[LittleSidhe]

Why don't you ask legal immigrants? Like my parents... or my wife?

Why don't you tell them all the hard work and red tape they had to endure was for nothing, all they had to do was sneak in here...

Exactly. My grandmas parents came here and worked really hard to become legal citizens. It's not impossible!

There is plenty wrong with illegal immigrants. I don't blame the people themselves for immigrating but neither do I disagree with strict laws. You can't just let everyone rush into your country and not expect problems. Racism has little or nothing to do with it.



By the way, they might not be taking jobs from you (necessarily) but there is certainly increased rates of poverty, homelessness. Have you travelled to Europe recently? When I was a kid, whenever I went to Italy there would be poor homeless Italians everywhere begging. Now I go there and the Italian beggers are barely noticeable. The place is swarming with illegal African immigrants who struggle to find proper housing (because the country is already quite crowded), they lack the skills or qualifications for decent employment- most are left to beg or steal. It's a disaster.

Excellent point. I don't understand why people think everyone who is against illegal immigration is racist! I'm far from being racist, but I think if you want to come live over here, then you should do it the legal way. Simple as.

 

[Rio Sabinas]

The Laws of the United States are not a Resturant Menu where you get to pick & choose what you want.

Do the Imigration Laws need some changes?...IMO, yes. What those changes should be sounds
like a topic for another thread.

 

[justbehappy]

It would be interesting to see data on how many seek legal immigration then come in illegally when the process gets too frustrating VS those who say "**** that" and just sneak in.

Apparently you don't know many people who are here illegaly then.

 

[justbehappy]

I was on board until you get to...



Illegal? Is that a typo???

Absolutely not a typo.

 

[justbehappy]

Like I told Kathryn, I certainly think it's to everyone's benefit to be bilingual, but these anti-immigration people standing in cities with Spanish origins, holding up sign something like "No, I will not press '1' for Spanish, YOU press '2' for English," I mean, really it's not hard to see what the driving-force is behind that.

You experience your ex's mother reminds me of my situation with my girlfriend's family: One of my girlfriend's sisters keeps telling me to learn Spanish so I can speak to their family members that don't know English. "How will you speak to them?" she'll often ask me, to which I reply with "how are they going to speak to my family members that don't know English?" Needless to say, that about as far as the conversation goes.

Haha I completely agree!
And I do have no problem with people being bilingual like you said - I'm actually working on becoming fluent in Spanish because I think it's such a beautiful language. Rosetta Stone takes forever though.. But anyways, I just wish that all of them would want to learn our language.

 

[Zardoz]

Absolutely not a typo.

So... if the pregnancy may kill the mother (such as a ectopic pregnancy) it's just too bad? This is justified how exactly?

 

[Kathryn]

I didn't distort anything. I quoted you direct.

You took quotes out of context and left out sections that would have clarified my position.

Okay. Why start your previous post stating that you're now a minority in Texas?

You say "minority" like it's a BAD thing. I wasn't complaining about being a minority in Texas. No one's holding a gun to my head making me live here. I willingly live here - as a minority.

My point that white, non Hispanic people are the minority in Texas was to put things in context. This is a recent development. In a country that is overwhelmingly white, Texas, California, and New Mexico are the only states in which white, non Hispanics are the minority.

An aside note - White, non Hispanics are still a substantial majority in Arizona.

The reason they're ghettos is that Hispanics who come here are dirt poor. That's why they're here in the first place.

Well, duh.

I didn't say they were ghettos because Hispanics are sorry people. I simply said that by virtue of the fact that many are here illegally, they are unable to get better jobs, unable to use banking services (for loans or investments which earn interest), and therefore they are stuck in a cycle of poverty.

PLEASE read my entire post before commenting. Your prejudices show through via your knee jerk reaction to rational thought processes.

I saw you appreciate their work ethic, and then complain about them using public roads and medical services without paying taxes or having insurance.

Anyone who LIVES here ought to be paying state and federal tax dollars to maintain our state and federal infrastructure. I am not complaining about them using the system - I am in favor of amending the system so that they can become legal residents and/or citizens and contribute their tax dollars to pay their portion of the expenses for their own maintenance. And I think the vast majority of illegal aliens also want the same thing. I doubt very seriously that they wish to remain illegal for the sole purpose of avoiding paying state and federal taxes.

You might want to separate your wanting of them to have an easier path to citizenship and your complaining that some of them use public and medical services and create ghettos and make your race a minority in Texas. The two don't mesh very well.

1. I wasn't complaining about being a minority. I was stating a fact.
2. Illegal aliens use public and medical services and do not pay state and federal taxes which should offset their use of these services. This is a fact.
3. When large groups of poor people are unable to climb out of poverty, ghettos are a natural ramification of this situation. This is a fact.

Apparently you have a problem being objective about this issue. I don't.

And yet you still give your support of legislation that had one specific race in mind when it was created?

I'm not emotionalizing the issue. I'm not reading into it with any sort of political agenda.

The Arizona law is LESS open to subjective, possibly racist, application than the existing federal law that it so closely mirrors. It places MORE restrictions on peace officers than the federal law does.

Illegal immigration is a dangerous situation in this country from a national security perspective. WE NEED TO KNOW WHO IS ENTERING OUR COUNTRY AND WHO IS LIVING HERE.

That law, as written, could just as easily be enacted in any other state in the Union.

 

[Ordeet]

The area was now predominately Muslim. The housing was in shambles. The common areas were filled with trash. The place smelled odd. No children were playing on the playground, which was littered with trash. The area looked desolate even though the housing was full of Muslim and African immigrants. "White flight" was in full gear - the surrounding neighborhood, which three years before had been neat, well-maintained and full of nice antique shops, neat private businesses, and quiet, clean streets were now changed dramatically. The large, stately private homes were now rental property, and the shops were now a hodge podge of crappy shops with signs in Arabic. Trash blew about the once orderly streets.

I think that's the main issue here (what I've highlighted). Not immigration itself. The Muslim culture is a degenerate one which does not reward work, truth, or diligence. They reward blind faith which leads to blind hatred, so that they can't possibly be productive in that environment. However, not all immigrants are bad.

Here's a good video:
[youtube]I2uWd9mhLL0[/youtube]
YouTube - mexicans in muslims out

I myself believe that no people are illegal based on where they were born, but when it comes down to it, you can make objective judgements on which immigrants are better than others. I believe we should not be politically correct and not shy away from cultural critique or assessment of values when we allow immigrants to come here.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

You took quotes out of context and left out sections that would have clarified my position.

No, I took your quotes direct with the context in mind and responded in kind. I didn't skip every other sentence.

You say "minority" like it's a BAD thing. I wasn't complaining about being a minority in Texas. No one's holding a gun to my head making me live here. I willingly live here - as a minority.

My point that white, non Hispanic people are the minority in Texas was to put things in context. This is a recent development. In a country that is overwhelmingly white, Texas, California, and New Mexico are the only states in which white, non Hispanics are the minority.

An aside note - White, non Hispanics are still a substantial majority in Arizona.

Context of what, Kathryn? What would be the point of stating "I'm a minority" if there's no issue?

I didn't say they were ghettos because Hispanics are sorry people.

I didn't say you said anyone was 'sorry'. You might want to re-read MY post.

I simply said that by virtue of the fact that many are here illegally, they are unable to get better jobs, unable to use banking services (for loans or investments which earn interest), and therefore they are stuck in a cycle of poverty.

PLEASE read my entire post before commenting. Your prejudices show through via your knee jerk reaction to rational thought processes.

Yes, and your prejudices show through your support of legislation that had one race in mind and will be used against one specific race in its implementation.

Anyone who LIVES here ought to be paying state and federal tax dollars to maintain our state and federal infrastructure. I am not complaining about them using the system - I am in favor of amending the system so that they can become legal residents and/or citizens and contribute their tax dollars to pay their portion of the expenses for their own maintenance. And I think the vast majority of illegal aliens also want the same thing. I doubt very seriously that they wish to remain illegal for the sole purpose of avoiding paying state and federal taxes.

Yes, I agreed with you on this so your repeat is unnecessary.

1. I wasn't complaining about being a minority. I was stating a fact.

The way you're using it is completely unnecessary to the conversation. It reads like you're complaining. If you're not, then why bring it up?

Apparently you have a problem being objective about this issue. I don't.

Right. My objectivity is compromised because I don't support laws that racially profile one specific race of people. If my objectivity is compromised, then I'll counter that your sense of equality and fairness is as well.

I'm not emotionalizing the issue. I'm not reading into it with any sort of political agenda.

I don't have a political agenda. I just think it's hypocritical that people whose ancestors immigrated here are suddenly ready to turn on a similar group that are ending up here in the exact same way.

LOL. What 'political agenda' do I have? That sounds very mysterious.

The Arizona law is LESS open to subjective, possibly racist, application than the existing federal law that it so closely mirrors. It places MORE restrictions on peace officers than the federal law does.

I believe everyone is agreed that the federal law needs to be changed.

Illegal immigration is a dangerous situation in this country from a national security perspective. WE NEED TO KNOW WHO IS ENTERING OUR COUNTRY AND WHO IS LIVING HERE.

You keep saying this. Could you give us some ways that we could do this? The only thing I can think of is collaring and monitoring people which, of course, raises a new question about privacy.

That law, as written, could just as easily be enacted in any other state in the Union.

Yep, and it'll be implemented in the same way. Absolutely wrong.

Seeing as how I work in law enforcement, I think I can make an extremely educated guess about how the law will be enforced practically.

 

[Kathryn]

No, I took your quotes direct with the context in mind and responded in kind. I didn't skip every other sentence.

No, you didn't skip every other sentence, but you left out statements which explained my perspective and I believe that was to intentionally skewer my point of view.

What would be the point of stating "I'm a minority" if there's no issue?

The point is that Texas is one of only three states in which non Hispanic whites are the minority. I think that's interesting and fills out the picture when it comes to my particular point of view. If you find that statement of FACT unsettling or uninteresting, I can't help that.

Yes, and your prejudices show through your support of legislation that had one race in mind and will be used against one specific race in its implementation.

And I believe it's YOUR prejudices that are showing through in your paranoid insistence that I am prejudiced toward Hispanics. I believe it should be obvious by my posts and by my racially diverse family that I am most definitely NOT prejudiced against Hispanics. Yet you insist on trying to push me into that box. Now why is that?

I just think it's hypocritical that people whose ancestors immigrated here are suddenly ready to turn on a similar group that are ending up here in the exact same way.

Are you really this blinded when it comes to what I'm saying? I am not "turning on a similar group." I SUPPORT the rights of Hispanics to move here legally, and I am sincere in my hope that our elected officials will come up with a solution to ease the process of those who are here illegally, but pose no threat to our national security, to become legal residents and/or citizens - in as hassle-free a process as is practical. I've stated repeatedly that I believe our immigration laws are too complex, too expensive and too time consuming and I would like for them to be reformed. What is it about those oft repeated beliefs that I hold that you can't understand?

I'm just realistic enough to understand that we must have a more secure border -and that we must be able to know and track people who are not citizens in this country, for national security reasons.

But - I'm repeating myself in the probably vain hope that you will be able to understand my position on this matter.

What 'political agenda' do I have?

I don't know - you tell me. You certainly are misreading my position in so many ways that I have to wonder WHAT political ideology your reaction stems from.

I'm being gracious in assuming that the problem isn't biological.

The only thing I can think of is collaring and monitoring people which, of course, raises a new question about privacy.

I'll repeat this once more - NATIONAL SECURITY is the issue here in my opinion. Do you think it's reasonable, safe, and logical to have an open border and no way to monitor who enters and stays in this country?

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

And I believe it's YOUR prejudices that are showing through in your paranoid insistence that I am prejudiced toward Hispanics. I believe it should be obvious by my posts and by my racially diverse family that I am most definitely NOT prejudiced against Hispanics. Yet you insist on trying to push me into that box. Now why is that?

See previous mentions of you supporting said legislation targeted against a specific race in the application of the law.

Are you really this blinded when it comes to what I'm saying? I am not "turning on a similar group." I SUPPORT the rights of Hispanics to move here legally, and I am sincere in my hope that our elected officials will come up with a solution to ease the process of those who are here illegally, but pose no threat to our national security, to become legal residents and/or citizens - in as hassle-free a process as is practical. I've stated repeatedly that I believe our immigration laws are too complex, too expensive and too time consuming and I would like for them to be reformed. What is it about those oft repeated beliefs that I hold that you can't understand?

What is it about my previous posts where I mention, twice, that I agree with you on this issue that YOU aren't understanding? Why are you taking my stance as a personal attack against you?

I've already apologized. If you can't accept that then that isn't my problem.

Also, if Hispanics could move here legally... they probably would. See previous post about time + money.

I'm just realistic enough to understand that we must have a more secure border -and that we must be able to know and track people who are not citizens in this country, for national security reasons.

But - I'm repeating myself in the probably vain hope that you will be able to understand my position on this matter.

I'll repeat this once more - NATIONAL SECURITY is the issue here in my opinion. Do you think it's reasonable, safe, and logical to have an open border and no way to monitor who enters and stays in this country?

Fine. I understood that the first two times you said it.

You still didn't answer my question. HOW are we to do this? Give us some ideas that will fix this. Like I said already. It's looks really good on paper but there isn't any way I can think of to practically pull this off.

I'll make an educated guess:

We revamp the naturalization process towards citizenship. Hispanics are overjoyed at the thought of becoming American citizens. They line up in droves to get their License to be an American.

The people that post a national security threat? They aren't going to go through that process. They're going to keep coming right across the border under the radar, just like before which means we're back to square one.

Or better yet? They actually go through the naturalization process, get all their paperwork, attend our schools and join our military... and then fly planes into buildings and shoot their fellow soldiers in the back under the guise of solidarity. Just like before.

So, let's hear your suggestions about HOW we'll do this.

I don't know - you tell me. You certainly are misreading my position in so many ways that I have to wonder WHAT political ideology your reaction stems from.

Oh, no, no. You're the one that knows that I have some mysterious 'political agenda'. Nice neocon speak there. You tell us, Kathryn. What evil, diabolical position am I advocating since you're a mind-reader?

I'm being gracious in assuming that the problem isn't biological.

[Edit. I'm better than trading insults. I'll take the high road and delete this line.]

Very mature. Don't ***** about personal attacks when you're doing it.