How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[tarasan]

Define bad behaviour. If you mean murder and rape it would be one thing, if you mean people who are far from perfect and often does things they shouldn´t it is another. To be imperfect, to have issues, is not a crime.

Beyond that, it is not like people know what will bring them to hell and not and then chooses to do that.


But someone who does not look for God but is a good person?


That can be discussed.

ultiamtely we all know that we have done wrong, messed up and hurt people, ourselves and God, these things are sins and the seperate you from god, if you continue to choose seperation then why would God make you spend eternaty with him? In my view seperation is the torture, the knowledge youll never know him is the judgement and from where im standing its bad bad news.

the second statement is no because from the Christian perspective no one can be "good" we have messed up, we have all fallin short so no they wont go to heaven, because they dont exist.

your third statement yes it can be discussed.

 

[839311]

if you continue to choose seperation then why would God make you spend eternaty with him?

Because that is what a truly good, merciful god would do. Such a being would understand the difficulties of being human, our imperfections, and our failures. A good god would give us enough opportunities to get it right - whether that takes a lifetime, 10 lifetimes, or far more.

 

[tarasan]

Because that is what a truly good, merciful god would do. Such a being would understand the difficulties of being human, our imperfections, and our failures. A good god would give us enough opportunities to get it right - whether that takes a lifetime, 10 lifetimes, or far more.

the thing is that in Christianity we cant get it right, its impossible hence God had to do it himself, ohhh and God knows because we were the ones who put ourselves through this, this is our fault, and blaming God for the things that we did doesnt seem fair.

 

[Kerr]

ultiamtely we all know that we have done wrong, messed up and hurt people, ourselves and God, these things are sins and the seperate you from god, if you continue to choose seperation then why would God make you spend eternaty with him? In my view seperation is the torture, the knowledge youll never know him is the judgement and from where im standing its bad bad news.

No, it is not that easy. I don´t know or feel the presense of God, so I don´t choose "seperation" as if it was a choice that I am aware of. And to be perfectly honest there are many people who choose "seperation" from me. I would even say almost everyone does except for a very few exceptions, because when it comes to it they never call me and never try to be friends. But I still care for them. And I would without hesitation let them live happy forever. So, yes, I would expect a God worthy of love and compassion to act that way.

the second statement is no because from the Christian perspective no one can be "good" we have messed up, we have all fallin short so no they wont go to heaven, because they dont exist.

That is an assumption, and a false one to say the least. People can of course be good, no matter their faith or how they relate to God.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

As I see it, torturing someone forever produces no good results. Torturing someone forever is the most evil thing imaginable. Nothing is worse than this. How do you reasonably justify torturing a being for all eternity? How do you reasonably justify the belief that a good god would do the most evil thing possible?

This is actually quite easy to rationalize for people who think that the punishment taught by their religion won't apply to themselves, as 1) they do not have to fear it, and 2) they are able to engage in self-righteous judgment of others who believe differently than they do, and so, deserve their punishment.

It's pretty typical psychological manipulation used to keep members of a group in line, through both fear, as well as promoting a sense of superiority of the group.

 

[tarasan]

No, it is not that easy. I don´t know or feel the presense of God, so I don´t choose "seperation" as if it was a choice that I am aware of. And to be perfectly honest there are many people who choose "seperation" from me. I would even say almost everyone does except for a very few exceptions, because when it comes to it they never call me and never try to be friends. But I still care for them. And I would without hesitation let them live happy forever. So, yes, I would expect a God worthy of love and compassion to act that way.

That is an assumption, and a false one to say the least. People can of course be good, no matter their faith or how they relate to God.

the first one is yes you are rejecting him, your saying I dont believe because i dont feel anything that is REJECTION! and God doesnt torture you, to me and alot fo others the flames of hell are judgement, which is seperation from God, as he leaves you forever, teh suffering comes from the knowledge that you rejected such a God and now must spend eternity without him.

it isnt if you read scripture, the definition of what makes a person good is defined from culture to culture appart from the big moral laws, for example you mightnt nessessarily be considered good in middle eastern countries just like you mightnt consider the good people there good by your standards.

God has the true standard of Good and by his standard we all rise and fall.

 

[tarasan]

This is actually quite easy to rationalize for people who think that the punishment taught by their religion won't apply to themselves, as 1) they do not have to fear it, and 2) they are able to engage in self-righteous judgment of others who believe differently than they do, and so, deserve their punishment.

It's pretty typical psychological manipulation used to keep members of a group in line, through both fear, as well as promoting a sense of superiority of the group.

of course although the bible prohibits us to give said self righteous judgement....

 

[Kilgore Trout]

of course although the bible prohibits us to give said self righteous judgement....

Oh yeah, that seems to be working really well.

 

[tarasan]

Oh yeah, that seems to be working really well.

I know most christians totally suck at it right? the whole "so no man can boast" never really caught on.

 

[Kerr]

the first one is yes you are rejecting him, your saying I dont believe because i dont feel anything that is REJECTION! and God doesnt torture you, to me and alot fo others the flames of hell are judgement, which is seperation from God, as he leaves you forever, teh suffering comes from the knowledge that you rejected such a God and now must spend eternity without him.

It all depends on the way you consider rejection. Rejection as a consious choice, no. Rejection as in I know it exist but don´t believe in it, yes. The latest is not relevant at all. The first you can make an argument of, but it is still based on a very primitive view on humanity.

it isnt if you read scripture, the definition of what makes a person good is defined from culture to culture appart from the big moral laws, for example you mightnt nessessarily be considered good in middle eastern countries just like you mightnt consider the good people there good by your standards.

There is always someone somewhere that thinks you are a bad person. I know I would never pass Hitlers standards for a good man... but I am quite happy I don´t. In any case, that is irrelevant. In my experience what makes a good person is not related to their faith. Christians, atheists, whatever. Good people exist everywhere. Of course someone disagree, I just don´t hold narrow and intolerant view of humanity.

God has the true standard of Good and by his standard we all rise and fall.

That is a stance of faith, and some of us obviously disagree.

 

[Amill]

To your last point, God has..... it says in teh bible that he has written what is right and wrong on people hearts, he has already shown what is the right and wrong thing to do.....

Then why when I use my sense of right and wrong do I find things that god says or does in the bible immoral? Why do I find punishment for belief to be wrong? And how could someone choose to go to hell or to reject god's love. There's certainly no choice made, at least in my beliefs. I've came to believe the things I do through experiences, and believe in the things I do when I'm convinced their true or likely true. I never rejected god, I simply am no longer convinced there is one. Its not like one day I just decided I didn't want to believe in him anymore...

 

[McBell]

no particularly especially when it comes to things like the doctrin of middle knowledge or the like.

It is still an ultimatum.

Ultimately It comes down to you to make the choice, btw just so you know I dont believe it will solely be Christians who get into heaven, its all those who truthfully and honestly search for God.

Yes, the choice is: believe in god or roast in hell.
Like I said, it is an ultimatum.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Grammar is your friend. There is only one "forever" and it has nothing to do with nothing; it is the sum of all time, and time is both still unspooling and a mortal concept, so... in effect, there just ain't no "torturing going on forever" going on.

An eternity is a different kettle of fish; it is essentially timelessness. Ever been there? Probably not, if you're sane. Lack of time brings along his friends like simultaneity, and if you've seen simultaneity, you wouldn't be here asking silly questions. You'd also be crazy like me... anyhoo, without time, an "eternal punishment" is a daily affair. A good example is repressed childhood trauma from which dysfunctional behavior arises. If you can't remember it, there ain't no time involved, no? And these these things are like instants; a virtual snapshot, yet they stimulate detrimental behaviors - which, in essence, recur for the "forever" of a lifetime.

So, if you cannot comprehend eternal torment; you probably should not have a child - there's no tellin' which of your heavens will be the seed that grows into my hell. Sympathy for the Devil, baby. Besides, hell doesn't exist. I destroyed it.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Besides, there ain't no such thing as "justice;" there is only vengeance... and I am a jealous god.

 

[EverChanging]

There is no way to justify it in my mind at all. There is always this the argument (except in the case of Calvinists) that a person chooses hell through sin, and that God, in "his" mercy, gives us the chance to turn to him in repentance for salvation. Yet why is this chance suddenly gone after death? Does not life continue after death in this worldview? God loves us until we're dead, and then there's no mercy? How could any loving god deny a suffering soul forgiveness for all eternity?

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is simply not justifiable. A trillion trillion trillion years is nothing is not even a millisecond in eternity, and I wouldn't even subject Hitler to such a fate. If God is loving, there should be no cutoff date for any soul seeking forgiveness.

For the record, the concept of eternal hell is a later development in Christian theology. Christian Universalists do not accept it as a biblical doctrine and make a good case for universal salvation based on the Bible, in my opinion.

 

[tarasan]

It is still an ultimatum.



Yes, the choice is: believe in god or roast in hell.
Like I said, it is an ultimatum.

indeed well thats just the way it is

 

[tarasan]

Then why when I use my sense of right and wrong do I find things that god says or does in the bible immoral? Why do I find punishment for belief to be wrong? And how could someone choose to go to hell or to reject god's love. There's certainly no choice made, at least in my beliefs. I've came to believe the things I do through experiences, and believe in the things I do when I'm convinced their true or likely true. I never rejected god, I simply am no longer convinced there is one. Its not like one day I just decided I didn't want to believe in him anymore...

if your not convinced then you ARE rejecting him, your saying he doesnt exist how is tht not rejecting him?

 

[tarasan]

There is no way to justify it in my mind at all. There is always this the argument (except in the case of Calvinists) that a person chooses hell through sin, and that God, in "his" mercy, gives us the chance to turn to him in repentance for salvation. Yet why is this chance suddenly gone after death? Does not life continue after death in this worldview? God loves us until we're dead, and then there's no mercy? How could any loving god deny a suffering soul forgiveness for all eternity?

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is simply not justifiable. A trillion trillion trillion years is nothing is not even a millisecond in eternity, and I wouldn't even subject Hitler to such a fate. If God is loving, there should be no cutoff date for any soul seeking forgiveness.

For the record, the concept of eternal hell is a later development in Christian theology. Christian Universalists do not accept it as a biblical doctrine and make a good case for universal salvation based on the Bible, in my opinion.

Ohhh my word no universalists make a terrible terrible case.

 

[tarasan]

It all depends on the way you consider rejection. Rejection as a consious choice, no. Rejection as in I know it exist but don´t believe in it, yes. The latest is not relevant at all. The first you can make an argument of, but it is still based on a very primitive view on humanity.

There is always someone somewhere that thinks you are a bad person. I know I would never pass Hitlers standards for a good man... but I am quite happy I don´t. In any case, that is irrelevant. In my experience what makes a good person is not related to their faith. Christians, atheists, whatever. Good people exist everywhere. Of course someone disagree, I just don´t hold narrow and intolerant view of humanity.

That is a stance of faith, and some of us obviously disagree.

indeed and we are talking about how christians justify it right? that is what this thread is for?

then in order for me to justify it, you have to assume my God exist's therefore you cant get away with "thats just your faith" card. You have to assume he is real if your sticking with thread.

but I think im just repeating myself, obviously people reject it cause its a horrible horrible thing, and to believe in such a place is a sad thing.

But that is just how bad Sin is its horrible, and humanity trivialises sin.

but anyway im bowing out of this discussion cause Like i said im repeting myself:bow:

 

[Amill]

if your not convinced then you ARE rejecting him, your saying he doesnt exist how is tht not rejecting him?

I guess if you define the word reject that way then that's fine. I would think that someone would have to acknowledge the existence of this concept or thing in order to reject it. "Reject" is just a word Christians liked using because it makes them build confidence in their own faith. They feel good knowing others "reject" the truth.