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Do you really believe that Jesus died for our sins?

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
The Crucifixion is indeed a great mystery. But I am not concerned with doctrine, or the enforcing of it. Doctrine, tradition, ritual and moralism are what spring up when an enlightened being's teachings are institutionalized into a religion.


No wonder you are exiled. I truly support the fact that you are following the holy spirit. I quite agree with you here.

I agree, to a point. When Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man, he is speaking of his humanity. When he refers to himself as the Son of God, he is speaking of his divine awareness. But he also says that we can become sons of God, and he lived his life showing us how to do that.


Son of Man means prophet and nothing else. Jesus said he was a prophet. I think there is the posibility that a lot of people try to draw other meanings from this because of the capitalized text which didn't exist in the original Greek texts. Once again I agree. Jesus wanted to teach people to find God for themselves by seeking the holy spirit.

Again, I'm not interested in doctrine, but in Christ consciousness and a relationship with God. As I said before, I don't think the Crucifixion was as simplistic as a human sacrifice. I don't require blood to be shed in order to forgive my children, so I can't imagine that God, who is infinitely more forgiving and loving than me, would find such an act absolutely necessary. I think there was some redemptive element in the Crucifixion, but I don't believe that Christ's blood is the only thing shielding me from God's mighty wrath.



This is the issue I am bringing up in this thread. The mantra reads just like a human sacrifice to cleanse our sins and many people say it is the last sacrifice. What a rationalization. It was more important to justify the fact that Jesus was murdered by the establishment than to accurately portray it for what it was.

Craig
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
It is only a contradiction from your minds perspective. Truth is perception based. There are many truths in reality as they pertain to specific subjects, not all these truths align with each other and can be diametrically opposed to each other.

If your mind can read, that all enlightened people speak the same words (see the same things), and then relate that to denying the words of others like Buddha, Biami et al. What can I say, this is how your mind works. If nothing else, as Jesus attests and proves in his path of enlightenment, humans will use any justification, excuses and reasons to keep their own knowledge sacred.

As for the path of enlightenment left by Jesus, you cannot even tell me what it is, or how and why it works, yet you decry it by suggesting it is a contradiction. The closest thing to it we have on earth is that left by some hunter and gatherer societies, albeit they were dealing with reality, and Jesus was dealing with a justified world. Buddha, Krishna et al, used a completely different process to achieve the same thing. There are many paths which lead to Nirvana.


We’ll address your supposed victimization here.

There are no paralles between the paths of enlightenment left by Confuscious, Buddha et al as compared to the one left by Lord Jesus. The path left by Jesus works on an entirely different process and why it is by far the quickest way to reach enlightenment. There is however similarities in the phrases they used, all enlightened people speak in the same voice and carry the same intent and meaning.
You say I missed the point of the thread, I say I didn't. There are many ways a person can teach.


The phrases “Do unto others as you would have them do to you”, or, “Treat others as you would want to be treated” are very common and are considered as Christian teaching even though it can be mainly attributed to Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai when asked to recite the Torah while standing on one foot. No citation right now because I need to hunt down the text. I have heard this story many times so it no doubt is recounted somewhere.

This phrase cannot be found in the Gospels but I don’t think anyone would argue the point that Jesus practiced this in His lifetime. Is this something that comes only from Judaism or Christianity? Hardly.

“What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.”
Confucius, The Confucian Analects
Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC)
Confucius Quotes - The Quotations Page

Do we reject this saying because someone other than Jesus said it? Some truths are universal and we cannot deny that there are parallels in sayings from religious teachers. It does not demean Jesus to point out that Confucius may have said something similar to him 500 years earlier.

I found this and it reminds me of you

“The superior man cannot be known in little matters, but he may be entrusted with great concerns. The small man may not be entrusted with great concerns, but he may be known in little matters.”
Confucius, The Confucian Analects
Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC)
Confucius Quotes - The Quotations Page

Did I forget that I was ignorant? I'm terrible with that kind of stuff.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
I said OK fine. What do you want? Several huzzah huzzahs about your really lame argument here. It doesn't matter when who said what, only what was said and you aren't providing an argument about that, only where and when a post was made? What am I supposed to say to that and what sense does that make?

You deserve my slam about your state of enlightenment.

Ignorance is bliss.

What I would like and what I will get are two different things. What I would like is for you to grow up and stop being so childish.

As for your slam, my apologies I hadn't realised I was talking to God.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
Do you know that God counts on you to sin????? Bad choices brings consequences to teach you what your choices mean. Could we ever attain real wisdom without a few mistakes??? I can't wait for my next big screwup. It's going to be glorious!! Just think how much I'll learn from it.

I've left them in the desert, on the beach and in the snow
On the mountain tops, the river beds, in fact everywhere I go
Tiny footprints --- Indentations --- to mark the pathways that I've trod
Yet they vanish to the sight of all, except the peircing eye of God
And he's always been beside me, since the day I ceased to crawl
He watched me take my first small step, saw me stumble, saw me fall
Life lets me make my own mistakes, and god--- how many have I made?
But thank the Lord I've learned from them, that's how life's game is played.
The life I've lived, the guilt, the shame, but I wouldn't change a dot
For it's made me who I am today and to me that means a lot.
O, I'll never be an Einsteine, a Rembrant, or Khayyam
But I've gained a greater inner peace, and I'm content with who I am
Undoubtedly, I'll fall again, Mistakes will knock me off my feet
But they'll be new encounters mate, Past sins I'll not repeat
For I store the memory of my crimes, like others store their gold
And my treasure house keeps growing, as my future life unfolds. .....By S-word.

But this old body of mine carries so many battle scares, that I choose to observe the mistakes of others and the suffering and pain, which is the consequences of those mistakes, and learn from the mistakes of others, rather than have to make them myself.
 
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footprints

Well-Known Member
We’ll address your supposed victimization here.

Please read my quotation elsewhere about being a child and growing up.


The phrases “Do unto others as you would have them do to you”, or, “Treat others as you would want to be treated” are very common and are considered as Christian teaching even though it can be mainly attributed to Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai when asked to recite the Torah while standing on one foot. No citation right now because I need to hunt down the text. I have heard this story many times so it no doubt is recounted somewhere.

These are not enlightened sayings, they are quotes of intelligence, not of wisdom.

Did I forget that I was ignorant? I'm terrible with that kind of stuff.

You didn't have to tell me that, I had already worked that out for myself.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
i've left them in the desert, on the beach and in the snow
on the mountain tops, the river beds, in fact everywhere i go
tiny footprints --- indentations --- to mark the pathways that i've trod
yet they vanish to the sight of all, except the peircing eye of god
and he's always been beside me, since the day i ceased to crawl
he watched me take my first small step, saw me stumble, saw me fall
life lets me make my own mistakes, and god--- how many have i made?
But thank the lord i've learned from them, that's how life's game is played.
The life i've lived, the guilt, the shame, but i wouldn't change a dot
for it's made me who i am today and to me that means a lot.
O, i'll never be an einsteine, a rembrant, or khayyam
but i've gained a greater inner peace, and i'm content with who i am
undoubtedly, i'll fall again, mistakes will knock me off my feet
but they'll be new encounters mate, past sins i'll not repeat
for i store the memory of my crimes, like others store their gold
and my treasure house keeps growing, as my future life unfolds. .....by s-word.

But this old body of mine carries so many battle scares, that i choose to observe the mistakes of others and the suffering and pain, which is the consequences of those mistakes, and learn from the mistakes of others, rather than have to make them myself.
very nice!!!
 

blackout

Violet.
Do you really believe that Jesus died for our sins?

Does "our" include "my"?

then no.

(sin, along with a number of other things, is something I don't have any of)




Those of you who have some though,
perhaps he died for your sins? :shrug:

(have they somehow benefitted?)
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
Ignorance is bliss.

What I would like and what I will get are two different things. What I would like is for you to grow up and stop being so childish.

As for your slam, my apologies I hadn't realised I was talking to God.

You are unbelievable!!!! You start whining and kicking sand and draggin the debate into the sandbox and now you are accusing me of being childish?

If your mind can read, that all enlightened people speak the same words (see the same things), and then relate that to denying the words of others like Buddha, Biami et al. What can I say, this is how your mind works. If nothing else, as Jesus attests and proves in his path of enlightenment, humans will use any justification, excuses and reasons to keep their own knowledge sacred.


This is where you started going ad hominem. You continued to try and psychoanalyze me and got ruder all the time. Your posts have been nothing but ad hominem ever since.

You lost on your little attack of the posts where you started kicking sand about, well I really don't know, the order of posts? You are still claiming some kind of high ground when you have demonstrated quite the opposite. What am I supposed to think about that? I made a concession and still got attacked personally because you couldn't read what I said properly.

If we are to psychoanalyze here, I would say that you are projecting your own mental challenges into my mind. I think anyone who could be bothered reading your posts would draw the same conclusion. You are downright nasty and you won't even concede that you were wrong in ignoring a small concession and proceeding to say some unwarranted things in the process.

Your posts are childish, this is undisputable. Don't try to cast your own demons out of my head.
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
I've left them in the desert, on the beach and in the snow
On the mountain tops, the river beds, in fact everywhere I go
Tiny footprints --- Indentations --- to mark the pathways that I've trod
Yet they vanish to the sight of all, except the peircing eye of God
And he's always been beside me, since the day I ceased to crawl
He watched me take my first small step, saw me stumble, saw me fall
Life lets me make my own mistakes, and god--- how many have I made?
But thank the Lord I've learned from them, that's how life's game is played.
The life I've lived, the guilt, the shame, but I wouldn't change a dot
For it's made me who I am today and to me that means a lot.
O, I'll never be an Einsteine, a Rembrant, or Khayyam
But I've gained a greater inner peace, and I'm content with who I am
Undoubtedly, I'll fall again, Mistakes will knock me off my feet
But they'll be new encounters mate, Past sins I'll not repeat
For I store the memory of my crimes, like others store their gold
And my treasure house keeps growing, as my future life unfolds. .....By S-word.

But this old body of mine carries so many battle scares, that I choose to observe the mistakes of others and the suffering and pain, which is the consequences of those mistakes, and learn from the mistakes of others, rather than have to make them myself.

I'll agree that this is nice prose. Still, you do have this tendency to go off topic, but you have done a nice job of not getting long winded in the process and not making really long posts.

Craig
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
You just admitted it was hearsay.All we have is the supposed word of James, if there was a real James.

Josephus never met Jesus. His controversial verse describing Christians or Chrestus is clearly fraudulent. Scholars have shown that the brief statements about Jesus was written in a different style than Josephus. Not only that but Jesus followers were not called Christian until long after the time of Jesus.

It most likely was a forgery (false statement) placed years later in Josephus's works to give credibility to the lack of real evidence. All mentions by Roman writers who mention Christianity were using hearsay evidence. There is no independent evidence for Jesus. Even the gospels were written later in the 1st Century and early 2nd Century.

No Roman writer ever claimed to have met Jesus. Paul never met Jesus. Obsessive Roman records fail to mention Jesus but did mention many other dissidents, rebels, and political usurpers. Over the years and centuries the fictional version approved by Athanasius, Emperor Constintinus, and aggressively pursued by Theodosius I and Theodosius II by the mass persecutions and extermination of Pagans beginning in 393 CE.

Thus began the Dark Ages. Greek philosophy and science was suppressed and scrolls burned when Christian Monks vandalized the Great Library of Alexandria and killed Hypatia the brilliant woman philosopher and scientist in a dreadfully cruel manner..People in Europe lost the information of the Greek Sciences and philosophers. They faced persecution for claiming the world was a sphere and not flat. Those who inquired were executed for sorcery or infidelity. Ancient Greeks discovered that the Sun was centre of the Solar System. Such belief was illegal until Copernicus proved the Heliocentric Solar System in a Protestant country more open to scientific discovery. Ancient Greeks postulated evolution of all life from creatures in the sea. That too got one's head on the chopping block or the burning stake.

It is sad that people were so gullible to believe the irrational Jesus story and Genesis. However, the Church had all Monarchs under pressure to continue enforcing the archaic and wrong]/b] Bible beliefs under fear of pain and death.

Ardipithecus


There are some holes in your argument. James and what he wrote? The subject was Josephus. I know that Josephus gets criticized by scholars and they even say he cheated on the suicide pact at Masada. I think though, that if someone added the reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, why would they have him say he liked James better? This is puzzling. Usually insertions contain some sort of propaganda. This doesn't sound like good propaganda if one is trying to prove anything about Jesus.

The fact about the lack of a Roman history of Jesus is simple, they didn't give #&@$%. Pontius Pilate would not have bothered telling Rome that he crucified Jesus. Just another Jew. The roads were lined with crucifixions. This argument gets tossed around a lot, but it is not valid. You have a group of Jesus people who are not liked by the Jews or Romans. Small groups that were maintaining their oral tradition, which is why the subject of Jesus can get out of hand. The media had no accurate reports and none of them were actually there or knew Jesus.

Have you read my thread Debunking the Antichrist Myth? You should find it interesting. Even though I am critical of the Roman church, I must say that one cannot hold their actions as any kind of proof that Jesus is fictional. Revelation warns of the coming of this church and the source, according to the author, is Jesus.

We have not necessarily disagreed much, but let me give you some food for thought. When someone tries to jack me up and engage me about the existence of God or Jesus, my reply is simple. God and Jesus exist in their existential realities and no matter how much they kick or scream, it still remains. This fact is undisputable, otherwise we wouldn't have agenda driven non believers trying to attack it all of the time. Why would they even bother with it?

Craig
 

blackout

Violet.
We have not necessarily disagreed much, but let me give you some food for thought. When someone tries to jack me up and engage me about the existence of God or Jesus, my reply is simple. God and Jesus exist in their existential realities and no matter how much they kick or scream, it still remains. This fact is undisputable, otherwise we wouldn't have agenda driven non believers trying to attack it all of the time. Why would they even bother with it?

Craig

Most non christians don't care
until THEIR rights as human beings
are voted against by blocks of christians.
(marriage equality and such)

Then it becomes personal.

What would you expect? :shrug:


Also... EVERY existing concept, exists... as a concept,
and forms reality/realities...in an existential sense.
(whatever your "stance")
It says more about "EveryThing" than "Jesus".
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
Most non christians don't care
until THEIR rights as human beings
are voted against by blocks of christians.
(marriage equality and such)

Then it becomes personal.

What would you expect? :shrug:


Also... EVERY existing concept, exists... as a concept,
and forms reality/realities...in an existential sense.
(whatever your "stance")
It says more about "EveryThing" than "Jesus".

You missed a key element. I only respond to being jacked up on the subject by Trolls, otherwise, I would never initiate the argument with them.

As to encroachment, the looney right wingers are old hat, there is a new religion trying to run our lives now and it is called progressivism, equally as looney. This would be the problem that I have with any would be debunkers who troll in forums. They are working off a boilerplate they have in their minds and it doesn't matter what you say to them, they still talk to you as if you never miss Jerry Falwell's show. Their agenda driven hallucinations defeat any valid point they may have.

Everything must be balanced. Some groups are never satisfied and refuse to admit that some of their arguments are invalid. I won't name a specific group because I am not opposing anyone's freedoms and human rights. I'm only saying that it is the human tendency to want more and more and by pushing it too far they need to have some resistance to balance themselves.
 
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blackout

Violet.
quotes " " really do not quote well.

It's true. There are people who make the thing they (profess to) hate the most,
a main focal point of their life.

For some reason people feel the need to go around
correcting and countering (balancing?) one another.

We all have some *truth* to proclaim...
or
keep to ourSelf.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
You are unbelievable!!!! You start whining and kicking sand and draggin the debate into the sandbox and now you are accusing me of being childish?




This is where you started going ad hominem. You continued to try and psychoanalyze me and got ruder all the time. Your posts have been nothing but ad hominem ever since.

You lost on your little attack of the posts where you started kicking sand about, well I really don't know, the order of posts? You are still claiming some kind of high ground when you have demonstrated quite the opposite. What am I supposed to think about that? I made a concession and still got attacked personally because you couldn't read what I said properly.

If we are to psychoanalyze here, I would say that you are projecting your own mental challenges into my mind. I think anyone who could be bothered reading your posts would draw the same conclusion. You are downright nasty and you won't even concede that you were wrong in ignoring a small concession and proceeding to say some unwarranted things in the process.

Your posts are childish, this is undisputable. Don't try to cast your own demons out of my head.

Human perception is a powerful thing, the path of enlightenment left by Jesus would help you immensly.

There is an old saying which goes like this; "What we see in others is only in ourself." All the above garbage has come out of your head, not mine. It is you who relates and associates like that. Science puts it like this; we will find whatever we are looking for in any given thing. This is due to associations we make and how we relate to them.

My advice to you, grow up and learn to research properly.
 
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Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
quotes " " really do not quote well.

It's true. There are people who make the thing they (profess to) hate the most,
a main focal point of their life.

For some reason people feel the need to go around
correcting and countering (balancing?) one another.

We all have some *truth* to proclaim...
or
keep to ourSelf.

I agree. That's why I talk of balance. You can be assertive about something you care about, but the way you go about it is important.
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
Human perception is a powerful thing, the path of enlightenment left by Jesus would help you immensly.

There is an old saying which goes like this; "What we see in others is only in ourself." All the above garbage has come out of your head, not mine. It is you who relates and associates like that. Science puts it like this; we will find whatever we are looking for in any given thing. This is due to associations we make and how we relate to them.

My advice to you, grow up and learn to research properly.

You are delusional. I don't think anyone who is paying attention would buy your attempted reversal. You are the one dragging it into the sandbox to kick some sand around and try and build yourself up. That's why this has disintigrated so badly. ad hominem is your thing. I am not going to try and prove a negative, that's nothing more than yourr ridiculous approach to posting in a thread. By the way, you are off topic and haven't proved anything on your end. Are you immune from providing a valid argument?
 
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footprints

Well-Known Member
You are delusional. I don't think anyone who is paying attention would buy your attempted reversal. You are the one dragging it into the sandbox to kick some sand around and try and build yourself up. That's why this has disintigrated so badly. ad hominem is your thing. I am not going to try and prove a negative, that's nothing more than yourr ridiculous approach to posting in a thread. By the way, you are off topic and haven't proved anything on your end. Are you immune from providing a valid argument?

Human perception is a powerful thing. People will do just about anything, to justify and keep their own intelligence.
 

Violent K

New Member
No I dont think He did at all
the crucifixtion story is takin directly from the egyption sun gods,horris, story
there have been many regurgitations of this story
the story says horris died on a cross and was raised after three days
seems a bit too concedental seen as the egyptions came a few thousand years before jesus
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
No I dont think He did at all
the crucifixtion story is takin directly from the egyption sun gods,horris, story
there have been many regurgitations of this story
the story says horris died on a cross and was raised after three days
seems a bit too concedental seen as the egyptions came a few thousand years before jesus

You might want to check your source on that.:p
 
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