Crowley wasn't a satanist.

[Troublemane]

I think someone should start a breakfast-only restaurant, named after Crowley, and call it "To Eggatherion"

Yeh, I think Crowley was important for magick more for his mistakes, than his successes. By the way, he wasn't the first to spell magick with a 'k', Agrippa does it as well, though Crowley may have popularized it.

Crowley also helped popularized Enochian, ....but he also helped continue the idiotic system the G.D. developed for pronouncing enochian, by pronouncing every single letter...(like GMILCAZ would be Geh Meh Ih Lah...good grief! like pig latin!)...I found out how its supposed to be pronounced when I bought a copy of the original "True and Faithful Relation...", which cost some money, but hey its clearly spelled out by the angels and Dee how to pronounce it. I can only assume neither Crowley or the G.D. really read it. They must have gotten all their info second hand. Still, they did help popularize it, so they get props for that.

And choronzon....geez, dont get me started....

The Book of the Law, by the way, was Crowley's attempt to write a short book like the Tao Te Ching. He was enamoured by the Tao Te Ching, and said at one point o how he wished he had the eloquence and maturity to write a short treatise that would contain all the secrets of life, put so simply. The Book of the Law was supposed to be that for him, but...I dunno dude, most of it seems like drug-induced ranting, like alot of his writing does. I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to fulfill any 'profeces' written therin, as they are just so much kha-kha.

Finally, to totally deconstruct Crowley, did anyone who calls themselves a thelemite perhaps know that Crowley stole his entire ideology from Rabelais? The french writer, Rabelais wrote about an "Abbe of Theleme", that had only one rule and that was "DO WHAT THOU WILT". That was written in 1532, well before Crowley. Also, Crowley clearly knew of Rabelais because he mentions him several times in his writings....but he fails to mention the Abbe of Theleme.

Lemme tell ya, when I found out about the Abbe of Theleme and its motto of "DO WHAT THOU WILT", thats when I realized the Book of the Law was a big fake, too. Crowley was just a big fat phoney. Not only that he was a terrible Magus, just reading his "Confessions" tells you that. His spells seem to backfire continuously! His diary is not much beyond a record of his ejaculations.

However, there are points where he becomes human. Such as after a long rant against this and that, his next entry says "My saddest birthday." And thats all. Very touching.

Also I quite like his "Book of Lies". Great stuff there. But aside from popularizing magick, I think he never really accomplished much. Anti-christ? Nah, more of an Anti-Waite. :trampo:

 

[Mr Cheese]

I would like to talk about this idea of "going with the flow".

What flow exactly do you think people go by each day?

Who'se flow?
Society's flow?
Their own flow?
The flow of natural necessitiy?
The flow of man made/created necessity?
The flow of whim?
The flow of the expectations of people around them?

What flow?

I really cannot go on,
until this question is answered.

the flow, the universe, the tao....

 

[Mr Cheese]

What if you don't LIKE the flow of the people around you.
Are you just suppposed to "go with the flow" like an imbicille?
Because "going with the flow" is the "proper" thing to do?
(and because it causes far less friction... which does not in turn disturb the 'sacred' flow...)

What if the flow of your family is...
"everyone is thus and such in this family",
but you don't want to be "thus and such".

Whose flow should you follow?

What if you decide you want to be able to do something well,
like ... play the piano....
but your own "natural flow" is of a "lazier" sort.
Should you just go with your "lazy" flow...
or RAISE UP YOUR WILL TO PLAY THE PIANO....
and create a NEW flow in yourSelf?

like smike....

the LHP practioner of course does not like things...so they change things
and make them look nice.

the RHP also does this but works to do this for everyone not just themselves

the mystic realises that one doesnt need to change the flow, they need to become it.

There is a subtle difference between the three that is difficult to discern, especially when the three may use incredibly similar techniques and even the same imagery. However the intent is different within all three. Some also would argue there is only really two distinct paths making the LHP and the RHP one path...

This can all be epitomised by the King going to the beach...holding his hand up
and commanding the sea to stop. His will may indeed stop the flow of the sea. If his will is strong enough he could build a construction liike a dam. This would be the LHP and the RHP. The LHP would arguably use the power of the sea to their own advantage, thus building a windmill or hydro electric plant, to power their own castle. The RHP would argue this is wrong, and use the sea to power the entire kingdom.

The mystic however knows, such acts are pointless, the sea is going to do whatever it wants, thus the mystic jumps into the ocean...and dies....

 

[katiafish]

The mystic however knows, such acts are pointless and jumps into the ocean...and dies.

And swims...

 

[Mr Cheese]

And swims...

yes... (grasshopper)


but what swims, is no longer the person that dove into the sea

this death of course is also a part of the LPH and RHP (less so the LHP), but it is to make the power plant work effectively...

as a side note, this death is the esoteric meaning of what Christians call being Born again....which obviously differs quite a bit from what many (but arguably not all)christians think being born again is...

 

[Mr Cheese]

I think someone should start a breakfast-only restaurant, named after Crowley, and call it "To Eggatherion"

Yeh, I think Crowley was important for magick more for his mistakes, than his successes. By the way, he wasn't the first to spell magick with a 'k', Agrippa does it as well, though Crowley may have popularized it.

Crowley also helped popularized Enochian, ....but he also helped continue the idiotic system the G.D. developed for pronouncing enochian, by pronouncing every single letter...(like GMILCAZ would be Geh Meh Ih Lah...good grief! like pig latin!)...I found out how its supposed to be pronounced when I bought a copy of the original "True and Faithful Relation...", which cost some money, but hey its clearly spelled out by the angels and Dee how to pronounce it. I can only assume neither Crowley or the G.D. really read it. They must have gotten all their info second hand. Still, they did help popularize it, so they get props for that.

And choronzon....geez, dont get me started....

The Book of the Law, by the way, was Crowley's attempt to write a short book like the Tao Te Ching. He was enamoured by the Tao Te Ching, and said at one point o how he wished he had the eloquence and maturity to write a short treatise that would contain all the secrets of life, put so simply. The Book of the Law was supposed to be that for him, but...I dunno dude, most of it seems like drug-induced ranting, like alot of his writing does. I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to fulfill any 'profeces' written therin, as they are just so much kha-kha.

Finally, to totally deconstruct Crowley, did anyone who calls themselves a thelemite perhaps know that Crowley stole his entire ideology from Rabelais? The french writer, Rabelais wrote about an "Abbe of Theleme", that had only one rule and that was "DO WHAT THOU WILT". That was written in 1532, well before Crowley. Also, Crowley clearly knew of Rabelais because he mentions him several times in his writings....but he fails to mention the Abbe of Theleme.

Lemme tell ya, when I found out about the Abbe of Theleme and its motto of "DO WHAT THOU WILT", thats when I realized the Book of the Law was a big fake, too. Crowley was just a big fat phoney. Not only that he was a terrible Magus, just reading his "Confessions" tells you that. His spells seem to backfire continuously! His diary is not much beyond a record of his ejaculations.

However, there are points where he becomes human. Such as after a long rant against this and that, his next entry says "My saddest birthday." And thats all. Very touching.

Also I quite like his "Book of Lies". Great stuff there. But aside from popularizing magick, I think he never really accomplished much. Anti-christ? Nah, more of an Anti-Waite. :trampo:

I'm not sure I agree with everythign you said....

but in summary I'd agree that, Crowley was essentially a thief. Arguably liek Walt Disney, he stole other people's "ideas", made convoluted versions of them..and often changed them so much they lost their essential core; the best Disney example being the little mermaid, Ariel dies in the original Hans Christian Anderson story....

For Crowley as you mention Enochian would be a good example, although Dee never left a complete version of the Enochian system, so arguably any attempt to use it, is fraught with the pit fall that you essentially have to re-invent the wheel. There are of course many other Crowley examples...

 

[Troublemane]

I'm not sure I agree with everythign you said....

but in summary I'd agree that, Crowley was essentially a thief. Arguably liek Walt Disney, he stole other people's "ideas", made convoluted versions of them..and often changed them so much they lost their essential core; the best Disney example being the little mermaid, Ariel dies in the original Hans Christian Anderson story....

For Crowley as you mention Enochian would be a good example, although Dee never left a complete version of the Enochian system, so arguably any attempt to use it, is fraught with the pit fall that you essentially have to re-invent the wheel. There are of course many other Crowley examples...

Oh, I suppose I should correct myself. It wasn't Agrippa who used magick with a 'k', as Agrippa's writings were originally in latin. It was his translator, John French (1651). Still before Crowley.

As you say, the enochian system is still largely un-useable, even with the G.D.'s revisions. But like with even the obviously fake Simon edition of the Necronomicon, all it takes is for someone to believe it works, and wow--you get results!...maybe not as good and predictable as when you really know what you are doing, but then, hey, where's the fun in that?:magic:

I do like the parallel you draw between Crowley and Disney, Mr Cheese! Thats a good one!:bow:

 

[Octavia156]

I think someone should start a breakfast-only restaurant, named after Crowley, and call it "To Eggatherion"

The Book of the Law, by the way, was Crowley's attempt to write a short book like the Tao Te Ching. He was enamoured by the Tao Te Ching, and said at one point o how he wished he had the eloquence and maturity to write a short treatise that would contain all the secrets of life, put so simply. The Book of the Law was supposed to be that for him, but...I dunno dude, most of it seems like drug-induced ranting, like alot of his writing does. I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to fulfill any 'profeces' written therin, as they are just so much kha-kha.

Crowley did write a version of the Tao te Ching - Liber CLVII check it out!

I wholly disagree with your assertion that Liber AL was an attempt to write a Tao te Ching!? Have you read the circumstances in which the Book of the Law was received by Crowley?

As for sounding like drug raved ranting... like almost every other holy book out there? :sarcastic And whats so wrong about creating on drugs anyway, PLENTY of examples of world changing drug influenced Art out there... and isn't revelations hypothesised to be the work of magic mushrooms?

Its a shame that you feel sorry for someone who attempts to live by the principles of the the Book of the Law - for they are Life, Love, Liberty and Light.
A Thelemite is someone who has taken full responsibility for his/her life and actions therein. They have sworn to find their one true purpose in life, to do that and nothing else.
A Thelemite has rejected the dogma of religion. He has rejected blind faith.

He doesn't go with the flow - by the very virtue of Do what thou Wilt, he creates his own flow, that of his True Will. And he is swayed by None.

Finally, to totally deconstruct Crowley, did anyone who calls themselves a thelemite perhaps know that Crowley stole his entire ideology from Rabelais? The french writer, Rabelais wrote about an "Abbe of Theleme", that had only one rule and that was "DO WHAT THOU WILT". That was written in 1532, well before Crowley. Also, Crowley clearly knew of Rabelais because he mentions him several times in his writings....but he fails to mention the Abbe of Theleme.

We are aware. Crowley acknowledges Rabelais as a Thelemic Saint, along with every other influence on the system. These are detailed in the Collects of the Thelemic Gnostic Mass (Liber XV).

 

[Octavia156]

.

For Crowley as you mention Enochian would be a good example, although Dee never left a complete version of the Enochian system, so arguably any attempt to use it, is fraught with the pit fall that you essentially have to re-invent the wheel. There are of course many other Crowley examples...

Can I clarify here: The system of Enochian WAS completed by Dee and Kelly, but it was NEVER USED by them. They literally downloaded the system and left it. I don't think they even called it Enochian. All they did was revieved the alphabet and along with it the hugely dense and detailed code.. the formula of which is just far too superior for the creation of one human being.

It was picked up by the Golden Dawn, who interpreted a specific vision of Kelly concerning 4 Watchtowers. They then used this vision to formulate an enochian aspect to supplement their elemental system.

The 30 Enochian Aethyrs were first skryed by Crowley, having been introduced to the very basics during his time in the GD. He was the first person to ever actually work the full system since written.

For current up-to-date work on Enochian I recommend Lon Milo DuQuettes 'Enochian Vision Magick'

 

[Octavia156]

Y.. Thelema= True Will is a LHP philosophy - "Do what thou Wilt." In other words, uncover your True Will and actualize it in the real world. Whether Crowley wanted to admit it or not he was a Black Brother.

Xeper in Ma'at!
:bat:
/Adramelek\

hit the nail on the head here Adramelek!

Though do remember that Crowley had his own definition of a Black Brother. There is a LHP and a RHP within Thelema also

 

[Mr Cheese]

Can I clarify here: The system of Enochian WAS completed by Dee and Kelly, but it was NEVER USED by them. They literally downloaded the system and left it. I don't think they even called it Enochian. All they did was revieved the alphabet and along with it the hugely dense and detailed code.. the formula of which is just far too superior for the creation of one human being.

It was picked up by the Golden Dawn, who interpreted a specific vision of Kelly concerning 4 Watchtowers. They then used this vision to formulate an enochian aspect to supplement their elemental system.

The 30 Enochian Aethyrs were first skryed by Crowley, having been introduced to the very basics during his time in the GD. He was the first person to ever actually work the full system since written.

For current up-to-date work on Enochian I recommend Lon Milo DuQuettes 'Enochian Vision Magick'

DuQuette is agenda agenda agenda.... his works essentially twist things to a certain perspective...which is great if you want that persepctive. But it is a bit like going to the supermarket to buy some oranges only to get lemons.... that really is what his stuff is like.

Dee's Enochian work was indeed complete, the emphasis is on the word WAS, Dee's work however was lost between the 16th and 19th century, now that we no longer have the complete set of enochian tabelts etc etc etc Please see the Dee "auto biography" The Queen's magus and there is article in a book I have comparing Dee as an archetypal magus related to Merlin, in one of the Merlin conference series of books, which are out of priint but good. I forget which specific title....Possibly voluyme 2 Merlin and women. So essentially the idea of a "full system" is another of Crowleys lies it appears....

I beleive it was called enochian, the language, as it was supposedly a book given to Enoch... at least thats what the Angels told Dee and Kelly. Perhaps you can correct me, its been a while since I read any Dee biographies.

A Thelemite is someone who has taken full responsibility for his/her life and actions therein. They have sworn to find their one true purpose in life, to do that and nothing else.
A Thelemite has rejected the dogma of religion. He has rejected blind faith.

He doesn't go with the flow - by the very virtue of Do what thou Wilt, he creates his own flow, that of his True Will. And he is swayed by None.

Right I agree....

as such as Thelemite is like a man who stands before the sea and commands it to stop. Surprisingly, its a "battle" they can never win. But, Thelemites try,....
In trying though, they do gain some nice temporary benefits.... but like a drug addict, one must continue to carry on taking the drugs, or the high is lost....

The purpose of ritual is afterall, to not have ritual.

Ironically of course, the Will Crowley spoke of is not the will of the thelemite, but the will of God, as such Crowley was speaking of going with the flow, sadly most at least many Thelemites either ignore this, or simply don't know better.

 

[Adramelek]

Though do remember that Crowley had his own definition of a Black Brother. There is a LHP and a RHP within Thelema also

Could you elaborate?

/Adramelek\

 

[Octavia156]

Could you elaborate?

/Adramelek\

In Crowley's mystical system there are two Great Ordeals.

The first is "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel", the second is "Crossing the Abyss"

Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA can be understood as coming to Know ones True Will and having the capacity to Do it.

Crossing the Abyss is a subsequent Ordeal that the Adept will go through (in this life or the next..)

In this Ordeal the Exempt Adept is presented with a choice: He destroys his temple, abandons his Holy Guardian Angel. He wills for the complete anihilation of Self in order to become One with All.

Or he builds a wall around his temple, and settles nicely into the Abyss where the Ego swells and Death is feared. These are Crowley's Black Brothers.

 

[David69]

I have the secret code. I am that mortal!

 

[Adramelek]

In this Ordeal the Exempt Adept is presented with a choice: He destroys his temple, abandons his Holy Guardian Angel. He wills for the complete anihilation of Self in order to become One with All.

Or he builds a wall around his temple, and settles nicely into the Abyss where the Ego swells and Death is feared. These are Crowley's Black Brothers.

Ah, yes that makes sense. Thank you. The later would most diffinitely be RHP. To raise a Temple through the Great Work of Life unto the Abyss of the Self is the Way of the LHP. The Way of the Black Brothers, of which, in my opinion, Crowley was one.

Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\

 

[blackout]

This can all be epitomised by the King going to the beach...holding his hand up
and commanding the sea to stop. His will may indeed stop the flow of the sea. If his will is strong enough he could build a construction liike a dam. This would be the LHP and the RHP. The LHP would arguably use the power of the sea to their own advantage, thus building a windmill or hydro electric plant, to power their own castle. The RHP would argue this is wrong, and use the sea to power the entire kingdom.

The mystic however knows, such acts are pointless, the sea is going to do whatever it wants, thus the mystic jumps into the ocean...and dies....

What an incredibly simplistic/idealistic story/conclusion.

I'm far too tired right now.

 

[blackout]

The mystic however knows, such acts are pointless, the sea is going to do whatever it wants, thus the mystic jumps into the ocean...and dies....

Yeah Cheese, it's all pointless.

Why bother do anything at all.

The quicker we all die off and do nothing,
the better off the whole Universe will be.

Why even bother jumping?

 

[blackout]

like smike....

I wonder if most Germans "liked" the flow of Nazis,
dragging innocent people out of their homes....

"The flow of the Universe"

not real specific.

I can only assume you are a "fatalist"


You seem to think you are just along for the ride.
So be it.

Whatever. The direction I'm going has nothing to do with the OP,
and since you really have not answered any of my many questions,
I'm not gunna bother go on with the "flow thing".

I'll finish my thoughts on the "RHP" "LHP" thing in a bit.

As for Crowley, eh.
Honestly I'm not all that interested.

I already know My Majik.
I found it within my Own Self.
No one "taught" it to me.
It's alive and vital and flowing in me.
What other people do,
is only a matter of side interest to me.

There is no life that is mine to live,
but my own.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yeah Cheese, it's all pointless.

Why bother do anything at all.

The quicker we all die off and do nothing,
the better off the whole Universe will be.

Why even bother jumping?

the death I speak of is mystical death UV....

it is not death of the body

why bother jumping...? why do anything? Why does the sun shine? why do birds sing?
why do children laugh? Why?

How can the drop of water remember it is an ocean?

...
consider the following:

“Life is filled with coming and going.
Show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going.”

The follower of knowledge learns as much as he can every day; The follower of the Way forgets as much as he can every day. By attrition he reaches a state of inaction Wherein he does nothing, but nothing remains undone. To conquer the world, accomplish nothing; If you must accomplish something, The world remains beyond conquest.​

–Tao Te Ching (Chapter 48)


The wind blows
It doesn’t decide to blow one way
or another
the wind blows
​

​

 

[katiafish]

To go back to the original question, Nah, Crowley wasn't a satanist, he just had a wicked sense of humour.