No god, do we have free will?

[dust1n]

Personally, I believe no. But I wanted to get some other thoughts in from other.. non-theists.

 

[whereismynotecard]

What do you mean? I think "free will" is doing what you want to do; having control over your own actions and whatnot. I think we clearly have free will. Unless you get all philosophical about genes and whatnot. Such as, I do what I do because my genetic make-up causes my personality to be this way, but even then, your genes make up who you are, and your brain still works, and you can still tell yourself to do something or not. Maybe I don't make sense...

 

[dust1n]

What do you mean? I think "free will" is doing what you want to do; having control over your own actions and whatnot. I think we clearly have free will. Unless you get all philosophical about genes and whatnot. Such as, I do what I do because my genetic make-up causes my personality to be this way, but even then, your genes make up who you are, and your brain still works, and you can still tell yourself to do something or not. Maybe I don't make sense...

If you more inclined to do something because of genetic make-up, you would have less will. Determinism goes a lot farther into why one doesn't have free will as well.

When telling yourself to do something or not, where is the will in to choice of doing something or not?

 

[whereismynotecard]

I need to know what free will means exactly before I can further comment.

 

[John D]

yes!!!

 

[BucephalusBB]

Regarding free will, the same applies.. God or no God.
This is not a story about God, this is a story about randomness..

 

[Father Heathen]

Our wills are our own. Our choices and actions may be influenced by genetics, environment, social pressure, etc, but not entirely controlled by them.

 

[JMorris]

free will is subjective

 

[Willamena]

free will is subjective

That's a meaningless declaration, as everything is subjective, just as it is objective.

 

[Copernicus]

If you more inclined to do something because of genetic make-up, you would have less will. Determinism goes a lot farther into why one doesn't have free will as well.

I think a better question is whether robots can have free will. Even with current technology, they consider possibilities, weigh the value of actions, and execute those actions they calculate will achieve the best outcome. They cannot step outside their programming, but we cannot step outside the physical condition of our brains, either.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder may make it look like an individual lacks free will, yet that individual is doing what he or she most wants to do. Like robots, humans can get stuck in an endless loop when there is a bug in the system.

When telling yourself to do something or not, where is the will in to choice of doing something or not?

You always do what you most want to do. That is the "free" part of "free will". What you do not choose is what you most want to do at the moment of action--i.e. how you prioritize your desires.

 

[BucephalusBB]

I think a better question is whether robots can have free will. Even with current technology, they consider possibilities, weigh the value of actions, and execute those actions they calculate will achieve the best outcome. They cannot step outside their programming, but we cannot step outside the physical condition of our brains, either.

Somewhere in the line of evolution the humans must have evolved that free will. I doubt they did it in a few dozen years. Don't think we're even close to the end of robots. We just begun.

 

[Copernicus]

Somewhere in the line of evolution the humans must have evolved that free will. I doubt they did it in a few dozen years. Don't think we're even close to the end of robots. We just begun.

But in what sense is "free will" in humans different from "unfree will" in robots? How would you characterize the difference?

 

[BucephalusBB]

But in what sense is "free will" in humans different from "unfree will" in robots? How would you characterize the difference?

I couldn't even tell the difference between your "free will" and mine.

 

[Copernicus]

I couldn't even tell the difference between your "free will" and mine.

Right. Free will is not random, but people often confuse free will with random behavior. We associate unpredictability with free will, but it is not only random systems that are unpredictable. Chaotic deterministic systems are also unpredictable. Nevertheless, people continue to think of unpredictability as a key factor in defining free will, and they think that robots can't have free will because they are fully determined by their programming (i.e. predictable). If we think of human choice as fully determined, but unpredictable (i.e. the product of a chaotic deterministic system), then there is no principled difference between humans and robots except one of unpredictability. Free will, in its conventional sense, is therefore compatible with determinism. The fact is that we can make predictions about how humans will behave, and that suggests that we understand at least some of the causes that motivate choices. Human will is fully determined but only partially predictable.

 

[dust1n]

Regarding free will, the same applies.. God or no God.
This is not a story about God, this is a story about randomness..

Then you are saying no free will.. just to confirm.

 

[dust1n]

Right. Free will is not random, but people often confuse free will with random behavior. We associate unpredictability with free will, but it is not only random systems that are unpredictable. Chaotic deterministic systems are also unpredictable. Nevertheless, people continue to think of unpredictability as a key factor in defining free will, and they think that robots can't have free will because they are fully determined by their programming (i.e. predictable). If we think of human choice as fully determined, but unpredictable (i.e. the product of a chaotic deterministic system), then there is no principled difference between humans and robots except one of unpredictability. Free will, in its conventional sense, is therefore compatible with determinism. The fact is that we can make predictions about how humans will behave, and that suggests that we understand at least some of the causes that motivate choices. Human will is fully determined but only partially predictable.

I agree. Ultimately, there are so many factors taking place in one person's decision. All these factors create the circumstance for the effect, but we just aren't quite smart enough to define all the abstract factors.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I would say...yes... But I think our will is or can be governed by rules, regulations and laws in your country/city/town.

Here's a question yall...How different is our will compared to any other animal?

 

[dust1n]

I would say...yes... But I think our will is or can be governed by rules, regulations and laws in your country/city/town.

Here's a question yall...How different is our will compared to any other animal?

We have .7 seconds to under ride a natural instinct?

 

[MSizer]

I am a soft determinist. I think free will as most people assume it to be is illusory, but I don't believe we have no control over our actions. However, it depends on many conditions that are beyond our control. For example, I have a mental disorder which renders me incapble (while not medicated) to experience normal empathy. Therefore, it is literally impossible for me to actually be a moral person while unmedicated, even if my actions happen to be moral ones (because I happen to know what is moral by reason alone rather than a combination of emotion and reason like most people experience). So, I literally am incapable of being a moral person while unmedicated, but because I happen to be obsessed with moral philosophy, I have deeply held opinons of right and wrong, and act morally. I have met several people like me who have told me that the day they step out of prison, the first thing they will do is commit the same crime that got them there. For those people, medication does not work. I am simply lucky that medication works for me, and I've never done anything terrible. They're not so lucky. And most people are luckier than me. Most people's moral sense is normal, and works without medication. Can we blame schizophrenics for their actions? They're slaves to their neurons. Now, is it fair to say that the sexual urges of a child molestor are the result of his neurology, yet yours is not? If he can't control his behaviour due to a mental condition (and he can't, that's been proven) then how can we say we can control ours? No, we all are slaves to our neurology, and to circumstances as well. For example, if I said "let's eat human flesh for dinner" you'd think I'm a sicko for even thinking it. But if you were stranded on a mountain and you knew there was nobody coming for a long time, and the only edible thing on the mountain was your dead partner, you'd have some decisions to make about your stance on cannibalism. My point is that we have (IMO) the ability to make decisions, but we also have internal and external influences over which we have no control at all. Learning to measure those influences will be the next big challenge in ethical theory. If we ever figure it out, justice will be very different indeed.

 

[Amill]

Free will is still kind of confusing. I think all of the decisions we make and the actions we take are done for the sake of our own happiness, even if its not directly. So can we decide what makes us happy? Do we have any control over that? I don't think we do in most cases. So I think my actions are bound to my happiness. I still think its my experiences that guide my future though and that's good enough of a free will for me.