God did not "create" anything.

[idea]

we all know there are many mistranslations in the Bible. The English word "create" is one of those. The english word "create" should not be in the Bible, it is a mistranslation. "Creationists" have been duped by a translation error.

Hebrew Word Studies
[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Meaning: To build a nest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]


[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]and should therefore NOT be in the Bible.[/FONT]



[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]bara' [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1) to create, shape, form[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)[/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]The Greek NT word:[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]ktizō[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) to found a city, colony, state[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]2) to create[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) of God creating the worlds[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform[/FONT]


[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Both Greek and Hebrew words do not mean to make something from nothing. The word means form, shape, change, to make habitable. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Here is another interesting little tid bit. About starting out with a void (not starting with nothing)[/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]KJV Gen 1:1-2[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1 IN the beginning God formed the heaven and the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:1 - 2)

a better translation would be:

1 IN a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth had become without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:1 - 2)

notice "had become" - in otherwords, the Earth had one civilization, then the original civilization fell, became fallen, void, without form, and another civilization was then built on the ruins of the first. (The prior civilization involved dinosaurs by the way)

Don't believe me? see for yourself:
the word translated "was" in the KJV is:
hayah
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
a) (Qal)
1) -----
a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b) to come about, come to pass

Here is Gen 1:2 - click on "was" and you will find hayah
Genesis 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)


So the Bible does not teach "something from nothing" nor does it teach that Eden was the first creation on this planet.

Consider a farmer – farmer comes to a new piece of land, and what is the first thing they do? They clear the land. Cut/burn, haul away trees etc. etc.. then install irrigation, check seasons/ how much light etc… determine what to plant – only after they cleared everything else out have the ground prepared, do they start planting what they want to grow etc. etc.

I think it was the same with this Earth. So the gods look around, find one of the rare planets that can support life, in fact does have lower life forms growing on it, and decide it’s a good spot. Like the farmer, they first clear the land. They send a comet with just the right speed/etc to wipe everything out while preserving the life sustaining qualities of the planet. So everything is wiped out, extinction level event, and then the gods give the planet a new name, they might adjust the orbit slightly, add a little water, adjust a few variables – just like a farmer, situate everything and get everything just right, then They plant Eden – paradise, perfection, start everything fresh/new. And things progress from there.

We know about the flood, we also know about armagedon... God coming in, wiping everything out, and starting over.... this is not a new concept.

Now you know who killed the dinos.




[/FONT]

 

[OmarKhayyam]

A novel idea. To say the least.

 

[idea]

A novel idea. To say the least.

It's not just an idea... Those are the actual Hebrew words.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's not just an idea... Those are the actual Hebrew words.

:biglaugh:

 

[Man of Faith]

Here is an alternative view on the subject. It all depends on what you want to believe, however I believe the Bible is clear that God spoke everything into existence. Even the scientific community backs up the creation story via their big bang reference.

"Theistic evolutionists and old-earth creationists both accept the millions of years advocated by the scientific establishment. They sometimes try to defend the acceptance of millions of years by saying that bara refers to supernatural creation ex nihilo (Latin for “out of nothing&#8221 but that asah means to make out of pre-existing material and therefore allows for creation over a long period of time." "This short study shows that there is no basis for saying that bara only means an instantaneous, out-of-nothing, supernatural creative action but that asah only means a slow, out-of-existing-material, natural process of making. In the creation account both words are used in reference to ex nihilo creation events and both are also used in reference to things God made from previously created material."

"So, only the context in which the words are used can give the precise meaning, if there is a distinction to be made. The context of Genesis, indeed the whole Bible, is overwhelmingly in favor of interpreting both bara and asah in Genesis 1 as virtually instantaneous acts. Whether God created something out of nothing or created something from material that He had just made, the force of the words in context is that both kinds of activities were instantaneous and supernatural after God spoke “Let there be ... .” In Genesis 1 & 2 we should assume ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation unless the text clearly indicates otherwise. "

Did God create (bara) or make (asah) in Genesis 1? - Answers in Genesis

 

[OmarKhayyam]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]". . . notice "had become" - in otherwords, the Earth had one civilization, then the original civilization fell, became fallen, void, without form, and another civilization was then built on the ruins of the first. (The prior civilization involved dinosaurs by the way)"[/FONT]

So a prior civ existed run by lizards w\o an opposed thumb and brain about the size of a chicken. And this vast civ left not a rack behind as evidence it was ever here.

"Novel" idea indeed.

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]





[/FONT]

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"

Did God create (bara) or make (asah) in Genesis 1? - Answers in Genesis

You do realize that Answers in Genesis only has credibility with uncritically minded Christians?

It's not a reliable resource for anything.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"Creatio Ex Nihilo" By Gerhard May is available in Google books... thumbing through that will help...

 

[Man of Faith]

You do realize that Answers in Genesis only has credibility with uncritically minded Christians?

It's not a reliable resource for anything.

Well, I don't see many Bible publishers rushing to correct the wording, so I would say the credibility problem is with the OP.

 

[ragordon168]

Well, I don't see many Bible publishers rushing to correct the wording, so I would say the credibility problem is with the OP.

because thats not the publishers right. the vatican/ leaders of the church are the ones that would have to change the wording and i dont think after centuaries they will admit they were conveying an incorrect story

 

[idea]

"Theistic evolutionists and old-earth creationists both accept the millions of years advocated by the scientific establishment. They sometimes try to defend the acceptance of millions of years by saying that bara refers to supernatural creation ex nihilo (Latin for “out of nothing”) but that asah means to make out of pre-existing material and therefore allows for creation over a long period of time." "This short study shows that there is no basis for saying that bara only means an instantaneous, out-of-nothing, supernatural creative action but that asah only means a slow, out-of-existing-material, natural process of making. In the creation account both words are used in reference to ex nihilo creation events and both are also used in reference to things God made from previously created material."

"So, only the context in which the words are used can give the precise meaning, if there is a distinction to be made. The context of Genesis, indeed the whole Bible, is overwhelmingly in favor of interpreting both bara and asah in Genesis 1 as virtually instantaneous acts. Whether God created something out of nothing or created something from material that He had just made, the force of the words in context is that both kinds of activities were instantaneous and supernatural after God spoke “Let there be ... .” In Genesis 1 & 2 we should assume ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation unless the text clearly indicates otherwise. "

Did God create (bara) or make (asah) in Genesis 1? - Answers in Genesis

The Big Bang is not something from nothing. The Big Bang started with a something, there has always been a something. Conservation of energy and mass - energy and mass are eternal and have always existed. There was no time when there was no energy/mass.

Something else that has always been - our spirits have always been. There was no time when you or I did not exist. We would be unable to have "eternal" life, if we had a beginning.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

This is the word used in Matt 19:16 - the "eternal" in "eternal life". Eternal life is impossible for anything that has a beginning. So is free will. Nothing that has a beginning has free will. That which has a beginning - everything about it can be traced back to how it was made. Only an independent uncreated spirit has an independent will.


Those who tell others God created everything from nothing make God a monster of coarse. That would mean that God created evil. created Satan, created all the horrors in the world.

God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

should be translated:
7 I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

God "transforms" evil into good. He does not "create" evil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are not God's only creation. God has created worlds without number.

 

[idea]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]". . . notice "had become" - in otherwords, the Earth had one civilization, then the original civilization fell, became fallen, void, without form, and another civilization was then built on the ruins of the first. (The prior civilization involved dinosaurs by the way)"[/FONT]

So a prior civ existed run by lizards w\o an opposed thumb and brain about the size of a chicken. And this vast civ left not a rack behind as evidence it was ever here.

"Novel" idea indeed.

???? where did I say anything about the Dinosaurs (which are not lizards btw) running the civilization?






[/quote]

 

[idea]

because thats not the publishers right. the vatican/ leaders of the church are the ones that would have to change the wording and i dont think after centuaries they will admit they were conveying an incorrect story

Not "changing" the wording. That is the problem in the first place. The point is to go back and "unchange" the wording - to put it back to the original .

 

[Man of Faith]

The Big Bang is not something from nothing. The Big Bang started with a something, there has always been a something. Conservation of energy and mass - energy and mass are eternal and have always existed. There was no time when there was no energy/mass.

Something else that has always been - our spirits have always been. There was no time when you or I did not exist. We would be unable to have "eternal" life, if we had a beginning.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

This is the word used in Matt 19:16 - the "eternal" in "eternal life". Eternal life is impossible for anything that has a beginning. So is free will. Nothing that has a beginning has free will. That which has a beginning - everything about it can be traced back to how it was made. Only an independent uncreated spirit has an independent will.


Those who tell others God created everything from nothing make God a monster of coarse. That would mean that God created evil. created Satan, created all the horrors in the world.

God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Old Testament | Isaiah45:7)

should be translated:
7 I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Old Testament | Isaiah45:7)

God "transforms" evil into good. He does not "create" evil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are not God's only creation. God has created worlds without number.

I can agree that energy and mass have always existed because God has always existed. However in your OP you stated that earth already existed and God picked it to create on. That I don't agree and to me is an attempt to justify the belief in evolution and accept evolution and millions of years.

 

[Man of Faith]

because thats not the publishers right. the vatican/ leaders of the church are the ones that would have to change the wording and i dont think after centuaries they will admit they were conveying an incorrect story

This is incorrect, the vatican doesn't control Bible publishers. They only control which Bible versions they want to sanction.

 

[ragordon168]

This is the word used in Matt 19:16 - the "eternal" in "eternal life". Eternal life is impossible for anything that has a beginning. So is free will. Nothing that has a beginning has free will. That which has a beginning - everything about it can be traced back to how it was made. Only an independent uncreated spirit has an independent will.

so we dont have free will? or do you mean the ability to decide every aspect of our existence?

 

[idea]

so we dont have free will? or do you mean the ability to decide every aspect of our existence?

We have free will - we have an independent will because we are independent. Our free will is proof that part of us had no beginning.

 

[ragordon168]

This is incorrect, the vatican doesn't control Bible publishers. They only control which Bible versions they want to sanction.

so if i could get it published i could re-write the bible to destroy all creationist arguments?

 

[idea]

I can agree that energy and mass have always existed because God has always existed.

"because"? no. There is no "because" about. Because entails cause/effect. There is no first cause, no cause/effect, no because involved. No beginning, has always been, there is no cause - for something to have a cause it has to have a beginning.

However in your OP you stated that earth already existed and God picked it to create on. That I don't agree with and scientists don't either.

The farmer analogy was just that, a parable. The earth did not always exist - yes the matter/energy that the earth is made up of has always existed, but at one point the matter that is now in the earth was in a star etc. etc..

Laws of thermodynamics, conservation principles - everything changes form, but nothing pops in and out of existence.

The point is, Eden happens after a wipe/reset.

 

[idea]

so if i could get it published i could re-write the bible to destroy all creationist arguments?

Go for it!

People are set in their ways though, it would "convert" a few, but not all.