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Holocaust deniers!!!

What is the impression you get when you first hear or read that someone is a holocaust denier?

  • Someone is claiming that the Nazis didn't kill ANY Jew?

    Votes: 40 54.1%
  • is questioning the number of people who been killed?

    Votes: 18 24.3%
  • denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?

    Votes: 16 21.6%
  • claiming that a deliberate campaign to exterminate the Jewish people never occurred?

    Votes: 24 32.4%
  • all the above

    Votes: 17 23.0%
  • others?

    Votes: 12 16.2%

  • Total voters
    74

Circle_One

Well-Known Member
***MOD POST***

Let's stay on topic here, folks. Off topic posts lend nothing to the debate at hand and will be deleted. Personal attacks are also not welcome and will be dealt with accordingly. If we can't play well with others, we'll be forced to sit alone in the corner.
 

kai

ragamuffin
I also want to point out that the issue of Holocaust Denial is different from the issue of laws that exist, in Europe and other countries, which make it illegal to deny the Holocaust. (It is also illegal in most of those countries to display Nazi symbols, etc...understandable given the nightmare that was the Holocaust, Nazi aggression and occupation.)

Personally I am in favor of free speech, even for crackpots and antisemites.



i have always had trouble with banning such things although they are repugnant, i have found in my experience people who adorn themselves with swastikas etc to be pretty ignorant but i suppose that is the danger.
 
Actually, I don't think any of the options for voting accurately define Holocaust Denial/Revisionism. The important thing to understand about the movement is that it does not do justice to the evidence and the facts; it is a pseudo-historical movement, analogous to the pseudo-scientific movement that denies biological evolution. It doesn't seek out all the facts, and form conclusions from them; instead it has a bunch of ideological/religious/racial conclusions, and seeks out facts to support those conclusions and ignore the rest.

Quite true. It also (as I believe you alluded too earlier) that it is similar to the people who believe in government conspiracies, UFO's and the like. Very well spoken. :yes:
 
I also want to point out that the issue of Holocaust Denial is different from the issue of laws that exist, in Europe and other countries, which make it illegal to deny the Holocaust. (It is also illegal in most of those countries to display Nazi symbols, etc...understandable given the nightmare that was the Holocaust, Nazi aggression and occupation.)

Personally I am in favor of free speech, even for crackpots and antisemites.

Agreed. There is a movement called 'Reclaim the Swastika', that is trying to reclaim the swastika to it's original purpose and meaning. Before the Nazi's used it for the own despicable purposes, it was originally used in Sanskrit representing 'good luck'.

140px-HinduSwastikasvg.png


Though, this could lead into an entirely different thread about whether we are able, or even should take symbols that were used for great evil (despite any of their history) and give them a new and better symbolization.

If anyone would like to take on that discussion, follow it here: Can bad symbols be used for good?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
***POST IN THREE SEPARATE PARTS BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF PICTURES**



Pardon?

Perhaps I was a bit cynical with the original posters intent as seeing the following bits on their profile:

antizionist.jpg

tashan.jpg


As well as these threads:


I would love for the original poster to prove me wrong. :yes:

If you have any personal problem with me or my beliefs, you can either go for a one-on-one debate or just PM me. Thank you.

So, original poster, TashaN, do you think that parts of the Holocaust were made up? If so, what has brought you to such a conclusion in light of massive amounts of evidence towards it all being true.

You can start your own thread to know whether some people believe that holocaust did occur or not then tell me about it when you do.

If not at all, what made you create a thread as such? Have you run across such people [Holocaust Deniers] in your studies?

Read post # 13.
 
If you have any personal problem with me or my beliefs, you can either go for a one-on-one debate or just PM me. Thank you.

Not a problem, just a connection that I've seen in the past, thus me wanting to explore it with you to see where you stand so I can appropriately address questions. Like I said, there is no personal problem here, just inquiry.

You can start your own thread to know whether some people believe that holocaust did occur or not then tell me about it when you do.

Pardon?

Read post # 13.

That is the most you've come across then?

To move on with the thread (as I see this avenue not being explored at all), I'll put my two cents forward on people who are Holocaust Deniers.

They are foolish. They are uneducated. And like previously mentioned they are taking a few things that may not be fully explained and trying to make that the point (i.e. Creationism). Usually these people also believe in plenty of other conspiracy theories which are beyond me.

Why they would believe in it? That could be a number of reasons, 1)Hate, 2)Prejudice, 3)Indoctrination. This list could probably go on and there are probably as many reasons for holocaust denial as there is people who believe in it.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Well, in the light of what I've read in the topic previously, I chose:
1- is questioning the number of people who been killed?
2- denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?

I think most of the deniers mainly question those two points. And I personally believe that the first point can be scientifically questioned, because nothing proves exact numbers after all.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well, in the light of what I've read in the topic previously, I chose:
1- is questioning the number of people who been killed?
2- denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?

I think most of the deniers mainly question those two points. And I personally believe that the first point can be scientifically questioned, because nothing proves exact numbers after all.
That begs the question, EiNsTein, would it make any real difference if the number was say 4,000,000 rather than the estimated 6,000,000? Just curious. :flirt:
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
i have always had trouble with banning such things although they are repugnant, i have found in my experience people who adorn themselves with swastikas etc to be pretty ignorant but i suppose that is the danger.

Good point, kai.
If a person is a Nazi, KKK member, Republican or some such noxious ideololog I want them to feel free to express it. I want to be able to recognize them.
A ban just drives them underground, encourages group solidarity and conspiracy. I don't want underground agents plotting societal overthrow circulating unrecognized among us.
 
That begs the question, EiNsTein, would it make any real difference if the number was say 4,000,000 rather than the estimated 6,000,000? Just curious. :flirt:

Exactly.

Would it really be 'worser' to have more killed? Isn't 4,000,000 bad enough? Isn't the idea of systimatically killing people worse then how many were killed? How does the amount of people killed change that it actually happened?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Exactly.

Would it really be 'worser' to have more killed? Isn't 4,000,000 bad enough? Isn't the idea of systimatically killing people worse then how many were killed? How does the amount of people killed change that it actually happened?

It doesnt..And especially because of the "reason" that anyone died.That is the sick part.(of course thats just my opinion).

Hittler was a mad man.Maybe I've been lied to.My understanding is that he was a delusional mass murderer.

Love

Dallas
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Actually, I don't think any of the options for voting accurately define Holocaust Denial/Revisionism. The important thing to understand about the movement is that it does not do justice to the evidence and the facts; it is a pseudo-historical movement, analogous to the pseudo-scientific movement that denies biological evolution. It doesn't seek out all the facts, and form conclusions from them; instead it has a bunch of ideological/religious/racial conclusions, and seeks out facts to support those conclusions and ignore the rest.

This is a good description.

I think Michael Shermer has an excellent write up considering this issue.

He even addresses the issues of where in debating deniers that they will take even the slightest historical misstatement, such as Dachau being an extermination camp rather than the commonly historical viewpoint of a concentration camp, and using that against the facts of the Holocaust.

Shermer also makes excellent arguments against the European nations which criminalize statements against Holocaust denialists. I feel in the end of the debate that criminalizing such expressions, no matter how horrible, will give way to greater injustices as opposed to the model here in the States where not criminalizing the KKK and other such groups has led to a better maintenance of liberty in the face of revisionist and fascist claims. In other words, education and liberty will triumph over co-opting the methods used by those groups who wish to exert such fanatical claims.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This is a good description.

I think Michael Shermer has an excellent write up considering this issue.

He even addresses the issues of where in debating deniers that they will take even the slightest historical misstatement, such as Dachau being an extermination camp rather than the commonly historical viewpoint of a concentration camp, and using that against the facts of the Holocaust.

Shermer also makes excellent arguments against the European nations which criminalize statements against Holocaust denialists. I feel in the end of the debate that criminalizing such expressions, no matter how horrible, will give way to greater injustices as opposed to the model here in the States where not criminalizing the KKK and other such groups has led to a better maintenance of liberty in the face of revisionist and fascist claims. In other words, education and liberty will triumph over co-opting the methods used by those groups who wish to exert such fanatical claims.

Excellent post! Frubals!
 

.lava

Veteran Member
That begs the question, EiNsTein, would it make any real difference if the number was say 4,000,000 rather than the estimated 6,000,000? Just curious. :flirt:

well, however cuteness hunt me perfectly, i would still remind you the difference you observed between 2 billion Muslims and 1.4 billion Muslims.

.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
well, however cuteness hunt me perfectly, i would still remind you the difference you observed between 2 billion Muslims and 1.4 billion Muslims.

.

I just have to say,

however cuteness hunt me perfectly

is absolutely excellent.

No offense. Seriously.

I just find that phrasing fantastic.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Well, in the light of what I've read in the topic previously, I chose:
1- is questioning the number of people who been killed?
2- denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?

I think most of the deniers mainly question those two points. And I personally believe that the first point can be scientifically questioned, because nothing proves exact numbers after all.


OK i can understand to a degree the numbers argument, but how does someone actually deny the Gas chambers bit?



According to researchers Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman, there is a "convergence of evidence" that proves that the Holocaust happened. This evidence includes:[21]


“
  1. Written documents—hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.
  2. Eyewitness testimony—accounts from survivors, Jewish Sonderkommandos (who were forced to help load bodies from the gas chambers into the crematoria in exchange for the promise of survival), SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even high-ranking Nazis who spoke openly about the mass murder of the Jews
  3. Photographs—including official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, unofficial photographs taken by the German military.
  4. The camps themselves—concentration camps, work camps, and extermination camps that still exist in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction
  5. Inferential evidence—population demographics, reconstructed from the pre-World War II era; if six million Jews were not killed, what happened to them all?

Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I am not inferring that you are a holocaust denier in any way Einstein just wondering how anyone expresses such a belief without looking foolish.
 
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tomspug

Absorbant
What is the impression you get when you first hear or read that someone is a holocaust denier?

That someone is ...

1- claiming that the Nazis didn't kill ANY Jew?

2- merely *questioning* the number of people who been killed?

3- denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?

4- claiming that a deliberate campaign to exterminate the Jewish people never occurred?

5- all the above.

6- others?
Considering that few events in history have been as scrutinized as the Holocaust, I'd consider anyone that can even fall under any of those options as being "historically inept".

Considering that options 1, 3, and 4 are all absolutely true, the only option for a non-bigot would be option 2. And I would question for what purpose they are questioning the "exact" number of Jews killed, as if it mattered at all that the number by 100% precise, other than to imply that the number is either a) grossly overblown or b) grossly under the exact number.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
well, however cuteness hunt me perfectly, i would still remind you the difference you observed between 2 billion Muslims and 1.4 billion Muslims.

I do have to admit that you made me pause and think about this. On the surface, the two do seem to be very similar cases. However they do differ in several ways.

1. Both are reported numbers of people, one set is living and one set is dead. The former number has no realistic statistical guidelines and would seem to inflate of its own accord. The later is a number that has been consistent for well over 40 years.

2. There is good reason for Muslims to over-inflate their number of adherents as it becomes its own proof that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Meanwhile, 6,000,000 is a widely accepted, static number, which is only questioned by those who may have an agenda for discrediting Jews - for whatever reason.

3. 2 billions Muslims is a number that is picked out of the air and little more than hyperbole, pure and simple, designed to give credibility to a momentum that may or may not actually exist. As I explained before, there are no accurate global figures of people converting (ooops... sorry.... "reverting") to Islam. You are welcome to show the facts any time you like to correct me on this assertion.

Conversely, the Nazi death camps gained infamy due to their meticulous record keeping. Though a possibility remains that the numbers are less than given, there is also the possibility that the numbers are higher.

In my opinion, you are comparing apples to oranges, but it did make me pause for a second to think of a suitable response, so kudos for that.

However, my question remains for EinsteiN. Does it make a difference Einstein? What if the numbers are verified and it was discovered that the actual death toll was higher?
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
What is the impression you get when you first hear or read that someone is a holocaust denier?

That someone is ...

1- claiming that the Nazis didn't kill ANY Jew?

2- merely *questioning* the number of people who been killed?

3- denying the existence or the methods used in gas chambers?

4- claiming that a deliberate campaign to exterminate the Jewish people never occurred?

5- all the above.

6- others?

At first i thought this was another analogy.
My impression of a Holocaust denier is of somebody who is either a Neo Nazi or an ill educated moron,however we need to hear them out so we can put them right.
My Uncle was one of the first British Soldiers into Belsen Berkenau,he was a very tough Man but just the mention of Holocaust bought tears to his eyes of both compassion and anger,there were so many bodies they were using Bulldozers.
The final figure of the victims of the Holocaust which exceeds 12 million does not include the ones killed by the death squads lead by people such as Oskar Dirlwanger which could add thousands more,it is a terrible thing to deny
 
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