Pope makes eejits of the Church again.

[emiliano]

Yes, but it's still ridicilous to suggest that such things are a much bigger concern than the environment. "Sin" is a personal thing which bears no effect on the anything other than the individual (if at all) while the state of the environment affects every single living thing on the planet.

To a Christian it is, to you it may seem of no importance and that's funny thing cause atheist and the far left give it such an importance, but as things are going for them it seem to me that they are been used and are begining to realise it, the green party is doing it, the democrat have, even the governator Arnie is doing it to them, the pope massage is an onest one, protecting the church from this is important, very important.

 

[Azakel]

So gays can't be Christian because some 2000+ year old book people clam to be written by men you say the heard god? Yeah ok, for any ALL loving, ALL caring god, he sure as hell doesn't want gays believing and worshiping him. Then again, I feel that god has nothing to do with it and this is just Man trying to keep power over the Masses and not letting people feel the way they want to. Just show how much they don't want you to think for yourself, but want to think for you.

 

[Magic Man]

... protecting the church from this is important, very important.

If that's the case, then I think we need to protect ourselves from the church. We need someone to come out in defense of reasonable people, just as the pope did in defense of unreasonable people.

 

[danny vee]

the pope massage is an onest one, protecting the church from this is important, very important.[/quote]

The Church doesn't need protecting. We people need protecting. And certainly not from homosexuals. I'm a Christian too, but I don't share your views on this topic. By shunning these people you are shunning the work of God. God made these homosexuals the way they were. He wanted them to be like this. Would you like it if you were homo and the Church was against you even if it was nothing you could control?! "God looked at all He had made and it was ALL good." You've gotta see both sides of the argument buddy. And besides gays and lesbians show love too, just in different ways. Love is the most important thing. And if you shun homos then you don't have very much of it. You and me, we're not perfect. But God still loves every single one of us UNCONDITIONALLY. Isn't that the greatest commandment? Love your neighbour as yourself. No matter if you're neighbour is a murderer who denies God and is homosexual. Love him all the same. It's love that's important, not rules. You can be gold on the outside like the pharisees and rubbish on the inside. It's time to understand what the point of life is. It's love.

 

[emiliano]

If that's the case, then I think we need to protect ourselves from the church. We need someone to come out in defense of reasonable people, just as the pope did in defense of unreasonable people.

Well that could be interesting, but confused people as gay are, really? I think that this is a hard ask. Gays are having no luck at all, Obama abandoned them and he is a good spinner of issues, articulate and good debater, now they are been courted by the green party and Arnie. So good luck to you. The Pope will embark on a campaign to clean the RCC, and that is a good thing for us Christians. What about a pagan? An openly gay president? a gay Pope?:sarcastic

 

[Darkwater]

You are in full flight of ideas, let try to bring you to reality, the pope does not propose to deny any right to gays, he is establishing the importance of addressing this issue in his Church, it is a warning to the faithful, his message must steam for the fact that there are people in the RRC that are proposing acceptance of homosexuality even in the Church/Christianity, his massage does not mention any plans for secular rights denials, it is clear Homosexuality must not be tolerated in the Church, do gays have a right to become Catholics? Can gays become Christian and keep practising this behaviour? Surely you know the answer to that , does this represent a denial of rights? What we have here is a discourse directed to the Church that it is well supported by our scriptures. Where in the article do you see a call for violence against gay? He does not want them in his Church, a clean up operation is on it ways, the RCC is on it way to the sound/clear doctrines of the past, and end to the idea that the church has to run it business as though it in an electoral campaign, the Church does not have to corrupt it doctrines to accommodate gays, they are not part of the church or the kingdom.
Are you proposing that the church is forced to accept them?

Gosh,I greatly admire your blinkers Emiliano.So it is me who is being shortsighted in saying that so called male virgyn are not the ideal people to be calling the shots?

Churning out the same old diatribe against certain groups(or individuals) ,then calling them bigots or anti-catholic when they respond accordingly is as old as hypocracy in the church.

When corrupt,despicable & untrustworthy individuals like Tony B-liar turn to the pope in order to,somehow,use Rocats as a vehicle to further their own agenda or purposes,then you have to take notice.

All we have is the Law,stupid laws,based on stupid definitions are for stupid people. They do no society any credit & shall ultimately lead to it's destruction,hopefully at the hands of those who have managed to retain the good sense they were born with.

The pope is f*rting against thunder,with the help of ever super burgeoning system of bureaucracy that Rocats/stupid people do perpetuate by nature.

Anyone who would wish to have these creeps look after their spiritual wellbeing deserve all that is coming to them.I'd love to see them jailed,same as the Mullah's or anyone who preaches hatred or is fundamentally prejudice against any party or individual .

All that Ratslinger has to say to the bishop's etc,etc is that we(the Rocat Heirarchy) will not cover up for your(Priests etc) sexual deviances that harm other's which are a pervesrsion of your positions of power within a community.

The sexual perversion's are only admitted to cover up for other aspects of their corrupted & atrocious nature,admitting their small faults so as to make us think they don't have any big ones.

My "idea's" are based in logic & flow freely from source/origin without fear or prejudice,you dig a deeper hole for yourself by sticking to the Papish book of popery for whatever self interested reason(s) you have.

I could take a thousand of you up onto a hill & only one would come down,so to speak.

The Pope is an embarrassment to spiritual beings universal,just a rich,influential & well connected one who has openly flaunted the Law for millenia..most recently,since Mussolini set up the rotten Vatican State in the 1930's,without fear from Common Law or Principle.

 

[emiliano]

Danny Vee,

Let explore this one: The Church doesn't need protecting. We people need protecting. And certainly not from homosexuals. I'm a Christian too, but I don't share your views on this topic.

That’s OK my first religious instruction were in the RCC, I am still fond of their instructions.

By shunning these people you are shunning the work of God. God made these homosexuals the way they were

.
There is our first disagreement, as a Christian I believe what the Lord Jesus taught “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female” we read this in the Bible, where did you find that God created them male, female and gay?

He wanted them to be like this. Would you like it if you were homo and the Church was against you even if it was nothing you could control?!

You are getting farther and farther away from Christianity, Homosexuality is a behavioural choice, Christians know this and also that “But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. “Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
"

God looked at all He had made and it was ALL good." You've gotta see both sides of the argument buddy“.

Look buddy, this is part of the creation account, what does it say about Humans He created them male and female, doesn’t it?

And besides gays and lesbians show love too, just in different ways.

Pagan also showed love and some of their rites involves sexual deviations, should the Church adopt such practices in order to have an increased in their membership?

Love is the most important thing. And if you shun homos then you don't have very much of it. You and me, we're not perfect.

And again, not showing them the error of their choice is the most unloving thing a Christian can do, not to call them to repentance and change is also in that category, you and I are works in progress, He is perfecting us and He said “Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand. See it? They must repent from the life style they chose.

But God still loves every single one of us UNCONDITIONALLY.

:thud:Say what? “it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in Jehovah God”

Isn't that the greatest commandment? Love your neighbour as yourself. No matter if you're neighbour is a murderer who denies God and is homosexual.

All your loving isn’t going to save a single soul and God has condemned homosexuality, it is an abomination “they are far from God’s Law” the only thing that can save them is repentance , Luk 13:3 I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Love him all the same. It's love that's important, not rules. You can be gold on the outside like the pharisees and rubbish on the inside. It's time to understand what the point of life is. It's love.

As Saint Augustine said: love the sinner hate the sin, the pope is very fond of the Saint, if you love them, call them to repentance. Rev 2:5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and will remove your lampstand out of its place
unless you repent.
The pope does not want the RCC removed from it place, from it ministry .

 

[challupa]

Emiliano, if god made man and women then how do you explain babies born with both genitalia? What sex should they "choose" to be?

 

[Magic Man]

Well that could be interesting, but confused people as gay are, really? I think that this is a hard ask. Gays are having no luck at all, Obama abandoned them and he is a good spinner of issues, articulate and good debater, now they are been courted by the green party and Arnie. So good luck to you. The Pope will embark on a campaign to clean the RCC, and that is a good thing for us Christians. What about a pagan? An openly gay president? a gay Pope?:sarcastic

Was this supposed to make any sense?

 

[TashaN]

"Sin" is a personal thing which bears no effect on the anything other than the individual (if at all) while the state of the environment affects every single living thing on the planet.

No, as a Muslim, although i believe that sin affect the one who commit it, but *sins* of human beings affect every living being. Call it ridiculous, nonsense, whatever, but that's what we believe in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, as a Muslim, although i believe that sin affect the one who commit it, but *sins* of human beings affect every living being. Call it ridiculous, nonsense, whatever, but that's what we believe in.

But do you apply this standard equally? Are there other things that you consider "sin" that you would want to stop non-Muslims from doing?

For example, if you accept people who worship gods other than Allah but reject homosexuality among non-Muslims, aren't you applying a double standard?

 

[Magic Man]

No, as a Muslim, although i believe that sin affect the one who commit it, but *sins* of human beings affect every living being. Call it ridiculous, nonsense, whatever, but that's what we believe in.

Yes, that is a common Christian belief, too. That's one of my big problems with the two religions, the fact that they feel the need to make sure everyone else is following their rules along with them.

 

[TashaN]

But do you apply this standard equally? Are there other things that you consider "sin" that you would want to stop non-Muslims from doing?

For example, if you accept people who worship gods other than Allah but reject homosexuality among non-Muslims, aren't you applying a double standard?

Well, there is a very famous saying amongst Muslims, but i don't know who first said it, "no sin after disbelief", which means, if someone don't believe in God in the first place, so it doesn't matter what other sins he commit, in the sense that if he doesn't know God, so he wouldn't know the things God consider to be sins. Got what i mean?

I don't have any problem with homosexuals as people, but as a Muslim, i reject the act, not them having homosexuality drive. They are free to do what they want as long as that doesn't affect me personally, but i know that the sins of human beings as a whole cause God's wrath.

Yes, that is a common Christian belief, too. That's one of my big problems with the two religions, the fact that they feel the need to make sure everyone else is following their rules along with them.

Nope, i don't care who is following our rules and who don't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, there is a very famous saying amongst Muslims, but i don't know who first said it, "no sin after disbelief", which means, if someone don't believe in God in the first place, so it doesn't matter what other sins he commit, in the sense that if he doesn't know God, so he wouldn't know the things God consider to be sins. Got what i mean?

I think so, but it seems to speak against your earlier point, IMO.

 

[Magic Man]

Nope, i don't care who is following our rules and who don't.

Well, I'm glad for that, but generally the belief that "sin" affects all humans negatively leads to the other belief that one should try to get others who are sinning to stop so as to stop the negative overall effects.

I think your response to Penguin explains why you don't go with that line of thinking.

 

[TashaN]

I think so, but it seems to speak against your earlier point, IMO.

I perfectly understand that. Maybe that's because you are familiar with the Christian point of view and not the Muslim one. Although we acknowledge the affect sins have on humanity as a whole, but we have no right to coerce others to follow our path, but we can pray for the safety and guidance of humanity, and we try to explain for humanity what God says, without having the urge to convert them for the sake of our own safety.

It's a bit complicated, i'm not sure if you got what i meant, but our religion is always in the middle and should be balanced, as God wanted it to be. We don't have such thoughts like "we are doomed if we couldn't convert ALL people to X religion by Y2K"

We are fully aware that there will be always Muslims and non-Muslims.

Well, I'm glad for that, but generally the belief that "sin" affects all humans negatively leads to the other belief that one should try to get others who are sinning to stop so as to stop the negative overall effects.

I think your response to Penguin explains why you don't go with that line of thinking.

I hope you got my earlier point to Penguin that we don't have that urge to convert people or stop them from committing sins. We don't have the right to control people lives and choices, but we try to do good to make some balance in this life. Note that, doing good is not something which can be done by Muslims, it can be done by non-Muslims too, but the affect of this goodness would benefit the non-Muslims and humanity as a whole in this earthly life, but not the after life.

EDIT: as a side note, as Muslims, we are ordered by God in the Quran to ask people to do good and avoid evil but we don't force them to do so.

 

[emiliano]

Emiliano, if god made man and women then how do you explain babies born with both genitalia? What sex should they "choose" to be?

It is the environment in which we live, all the chemicals that have been introduce into the food chain, hormones in chickens, genetically engineered food, antibiotic, grow hormone, animal feeds manipulation for faster growth, etc, the world we live in is nothing like it was at the time of creation, it has been changed/manipulated, most of the effect of these improvement are an unknown. so birth defect should not surprise us.

 

[emiliano]

I perfectly understand that. Maybe that's because you are familiar with the Christian point of view and not the Muslim one. Although we acknowledge the affect sins have on humanity as a whole, but we have no right to coerce others to follow our path, but we can pray for the safety and guidance of humanity, and we try to explain for humanity what God says, without having the urge to convert them for the sake of our own safety.

It's a bit complicated, i'm not sure if you got what i meant, but our religion is always in the middle and should be balanced, as God wanted it to be. We don't have such thoughts like "we are doomed if we couldn't convert ALL people to X religion by Y2K"

We are fully aware that there will be always Muslims and non-Muslims.

I hope you got my earlier point to Penguin that we don't have that urge to convert people or stop them from committing sins. We don't have the right to control people lives and choices, but we try to do good to make some balance in this life. Note that, doing good is not something which can be done by Muslims, it can be done by non-Muslims too, but the affect of this goodness would benefit the non-Muslims and humanity as a whole in this earthly life, but not the after life.

EDIT: as a side note, as Muslims, we are ordered by God in the Quran to ask people to do good and avoid evil but we don't force them to do so.

That’s new and interesting, if you don’t want to stop people from committing sins, why do you have Shari Law? Why chopping the fingers off thieves, the castrations, the floggings, the executions, you don’t think that we buy any of this, do you? But I must admit that your post is nice.

 

[Darkwater]

Heh heh,this is really where the Rocat's"get off",attack,attack,attack.....In your time of need Emil,just when you were flying off of the *repent* scale.....who says the devil doesn't look after his own?

Not wishing to in any justify or,ahem,flatter his moleyness il papa,at least he is clumsily acknowledging & errr stumbililingly addressing that which is rife,although unspoken through hushed lips in Islam....If they talked about it,the chopping blocks would be busy day & night for years.I am sure some priests would vastly improve their outlook as Eunoch.

A lot of religious would LOVE to see Sharia Law,they can kiss all of my freeborn ***.

Lucky we can keep Rocats in their place by freedom of speech & the LAW of the land in which they inhabit....unlike rotten & corrupt Vatican City.......popes were being murdered every couple of weeks in the 1970's,yet no laws were broken.

Wellcome to the new Millenia,a new Aeon even....the people shall not be fooled.

 

[Father Heathen]

No, as a Muslim, although i believe that sin affect the one who commit it, but *sins* of human beings affect every living being. Call it ridiculous, nonsense, whatever, but that's what we believe in.

Shouldn't such belief be based on the observation of real world cause and effect? I suppose you believe that homosexuality causes flowers to wilt and milk to spoil, eh?