Universal health care would be a good thing

[Alceste]

It doesn't scare me that the federal government can't run ANYTHING well or efficiency. Not at all. And besides, it's only my health on the line.

Government expenditure on health as a percentage of total health expenditure
Canada: 70.2% United States 45.1%

Hospital beds per 10,000 population
Canada: 34 United States: 32

Infant Mortality rate per 1000 population
Canada: 5 United States: 7

Maternal Mortality per 100,000 live births
Canada: 7 United States: 11

Per capita total (government + private) expenditure on health:
Canada: $3463 United States: $6347

Life expectancy at birth:
Canada: 81 United States: 78

 

[NoahideHiker]

Government expenditure on health as a percentage of total health expenditure
Canada: 70.2% United States 45.1%

Hospital beds per 10,000 population
Canada: 34 United States: 32

Infant Mortality rate per 1000 population
Canada: 5 United States: 7

Maternal Mortality per 100,000 live births
Canada: 7 United States: 11

Per capita total (government + private) expenditure on health:
Canada: $3463 United States: $6347

Life expectancy at birth:
Canada: 81 United States: 78

Oh statistics are great but they don't give the human side. Like how many people die of cancer waiting for treatment that won't come in time. Or like the town that holds a lottery to see who gets to visit the doctor that week. Stuff like that.

Please list for me all the things that our government does cheaply and efficiently.

 

[Alceste]

Oh statistics are great but they don't give the human side. Like how many people die of cancer waiting for treatment that won't come in time. Or like the town that holds a lottery to see who gets to visit the doctor that week. Stuff like that.

Please list for me all the things that our government does cheaply and efficiently.

Government does public service more cheaply, effectively, ethically, transparently and with more accountability than the private sector. That's what it's for. It's just a matter of defining "public service".

The statistics I posted DO give you the human side, if you have a scrap of imagination. Do I need to tell you the heartbreaking story of a particular woman dying in childbirth for you to understand that maternal death during childbirth is tragic (and conclude that lowering maternal death rates is therefore GOOD)? Do I need to give you the testimony of someone who deeply enjoys life to understand that 3 extra years of it is GOOD?

The problem with only looking for anecdotal, single incidents that support your preexisting views is that everyone can do it. There's no objective measure of who has a better grasp on reality. That's why you need to look at research. Research goes a long way to cutting through subjectivity.

You have to rely on the best data you have, and draw your conclusions from that. "The human side" is important in terms of identifying with your fellow man, but it's not at all useful in a logical analysis of whether a more socialised health care system would improve service and reduce costs in the USA.

Edit: I did check with the WHO the probability per 1000 people of dying between 15 and 60 years of age, though, as it's potentially relevant to the question of how many people die due to not receiving adequate care or timely care. Canada: 72 United States: 109

 

[Mathematician]

Kof. NASA. USPS. Park recreations. Kof

Most social programs are intentionally snubbed out in order to promote inefficiency. Hullo. It's not the poor controlling the gubmint.

We may as well socialize it because we're already paying for the deadbeats who don't pay anyhow. If I'm going to pay for the dead beats I may as well get a free ride too.

"Deadbeats" being people whose jobs don't allocate enough money for proper necessities, yes.

 

[Alceste]

Hey, now I just noticed something VERY interesting. Get out your calculators, kids, and have a look at the following two facts:

Fact: Government expenditure on health as a percentage of total health expenditure
Canada: 70.2% United States 45.1%

Fact: Per capita total (government + private) expenditure on health:
Canada: $3463 United States: $6347

Math moment:
What's 70.2% of $3463? ($2431.03)
What's 45.1% of $6347? ($2862.50)

Fact: The US government already spends more money per capita on health care than the Canadian government. ($431.47 more, to be precise).

So Americans are already being taxed more than Canadians for health care. They just aren't receiving it. Where is all that money going? Private airplanes for doctors?

 

[Fluffy]

Universal healthcare need not be run by the government.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Wow... I just read the link from the first page...

1) Reduces patient incentives to find the best possible prices for the best possible services/products available.
Patients in the U.S. who receive "free" (taxpayer-funded) health care have no incentive to conserve their health care dollars. Care is "free" so they visit the doctor's office several times a month or request "free" prescriptions for over-the-counter medication such as Tylenol.

Oh noes! An incentive for people to visit the doctor more often! You know... I fail to see how this is a bad thing...

3) Steals from your wallet to pay for my health care.
Yes, you do have a right to health care, just as you have a right to food, shelter and property. However, you have no "right" to force others to provide these things for you - All "free" medical care is subsidized through taxes stolen from other people.

And from my wallet to yours. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Again... I fail to see how that is actually bad. Maybe I'm different to most people and am willing to lose a few dollars a week to see my neighbour get help with his asthma problem.

5) Destroys your privacy.
Suddenly your problems are mine and mine are yours. If you eat unhealthy foods or drive a motorcycle without a helmet, I have a direct interest in your business - you are going to see a provider on my tax dollars. Your neighbors might support government bans on smoking, "unsafe" sex or other "risky" behaviors to reduce costs. Politicians will use the federal bureaucracy to force you and your family to comply with programs such as the "New Freedom Commission on Mental Health".

I really don't get it... do people actually think that this threatens their way of life AT ALL? Are people ACTUALLY that afraid that their private lives are going to be effected so badly? Is this really such a huge problem as it's made out to be?

6) Destroys your liberty.
When you blindly support a system that bestows power on politicians and bureaucrats, they will receive their orders from those with the most money - and this will not be you, your friends or your family. The power of government will be used against you as you are forced to use medicines or accept treatments from well-connected health care companies.

.... sounds a little like conspirist theory to me...


Seriously - If people actually think that these are real, serious problems, and that it's going to destroy their way of life so badly that they no longer can cope... I think it's time to see a psychiatrist about a wee paranoia problem... Other people seriously are not that bad!

 

[Willamena]

5) Destroys your privacy.
Suddenly your problems are mine and mine are yours. If you eat unhealthy foods or drive a motorcycle without a helmet, I have a direct interest in your business - you are going to see a provider on my tax dollars. Your neighbors might support government bans on smoking, "unsafe" sex or other "risky" behaviors to reduce costs. Politicians will use the federal bureaucracy to force you and your family to comply with programs such as the "New Freedom Commission on Mental Health".

I really don't get it... do people actually think that this threatens their way of life AT ALL? Are people ACTUALLY that afraid that their private lives are going to be effected so badly? Is this really such a huge problem as it's made out to be?

As well you shouldn't get it --it's utter nonsense.

 

[blackout]

I dunno. We have relatively few health problems
but when I need medical assistance
(like right now) I cannot afford it.
So I am stuck.

In medical emergencies I can always get assistance for the kids.
I appreciate that. (on account of income and number of children)

Medical help simply costs more than what most people can pay for it.
Even us "medical minimalists".

 

[Mathematician]

Rockwell owns 95% of all pro-market alarmist sites on the interwebs, me thinks. Alex Jones owns the rest.

I'm waiting to see where - in any country with universal health care - the programs in place for coverage have intruded on liberties and privacy.

And why is Rockwell complaining about privacy when he's anti-abortion? :sarcastic

 

[NoahideHiker]

You have to rely on the best data you have, and draw your conclusions from that.

Let's not forget the old saying about there being three different types of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics. It all depends on who is gathering the stats and how.

 

[Alceste]

Let's not forget the old saying about there being three different types of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics. It all depends on who is gathering the stats and how.

Yes, well, it's the World Health Organisation gathering the statistics, using the devious leftist methodology of research. I even posted a link so you can go gather some in your own way and present them with whatever conclusions your own assemblage leads you to draw.

Or you can just dismiss the whole notion of facts, research and analysis and stick to simplistic, vague "expert opinions" from free market propagandists.

Or you can read this article in the New York Times.

The problem you have to face is that the belief that the US system is in any way superior to countries with universal health coverage is factually incorrect.

 

[Alceste]

He's a fellow with the Manhattan Institute.

From Sourcewatch

The article was originally posted in a business investor's magazine, here.

There is no such person as "Sylvia de Vires" [sic], but he may be referring to Sylvia de Vries, who voluntarily went to the US for treatment and elected to pay up front, and is now petitioning the government to reimburse her costs. (Her life savings, literally). Not a pretty story, but I saw a dozen worse stories from the US in Sicko.

Pardon me for quoting myself, but it seems this piece of blatant propaganda has really been making the rounds on the conservative blogosphere and in forums. So I want to clear up just one more crucial misrepresentation.

The "Architect of Canadian Health Care" is not this Castonguay guy, (who I've never even heard of until today) but Tommy Douglas, voted "Greatest Canadian of all time" in a nationwide contest on CBC in 2004.

 

[Starfish]

Yes, well, it's the World Health Organisation gathering the statistics, using the devious leftist methodology of research. I even posted a link so you can go gather some in your own way and present them with whatever conclusions your own assemblage leads you to draw.

Or you can just dismiss the whole notion of facts, research and analysis and stick to simplistic, vague "expert opinions" from free market propagandists.

Or you can read this article in the New York Times.

The problem you have to face is that the belief that the US system is in any way superior to countries with universal health coverage is factually incorrect.

Alceste--I'm not criticizing the Canadian system, so please know I'm not bating you with this question. I'm just curious. If you need surgery that is non-life threatening like, for example, cataract surgery, or bunyon surgery--- Is there a waiting period, and if so, how long?

Thanks! (BTW, it's helpful to hear your side.)

 

[Alceste]

Alceste--I'm not criticizing the Canadian system, so please know I'm not bating you with this question. I'm just curious. If you need surgery that is non-life threatening like, for example, cataract surgery, or bunyon surgery--- Is there a waiting period, and if so, how long?

Thanks! (BTW, it's helpful to hear your side.)

Wait times vary widely depending on resources and demand. Provincial governments are responsible for service delivery and they have very different policies. For example, I think in Alberta you have the option to pay for some surgeries if you don't want to wait. According to this article on the CBC, the average wait time is about 18 weeks.

Although I'd be cautious with that figure, as it comes from yet another right wing propaganda foundation, the Fraser Institute.

Unfortunately, it seems the US doesn't collect data on wait times, according to this article, so it's impossible to compare.

 

[Starfish]

Wait times vary widely depending on resources and demand. Provincial governments are responsible for service delivery and they have very different policies. For example, I think in Alberta, I believe you have the option to pay for some surgeries if you don't want to wait. According to this article on the CBC, the average wait time is about 18 weeks.

Although I'd be cautious with that figure, as it comes from yet another right wing propaganda foundation, the Fraser Institute.

Unfortunately, it seems the US doesn't collect data on wait times, according to this article so it's impossible to compare.

Thanks. I'm not aware of wait times in the U.S. At least not more than a few weeks.

 

[Alceste]

Thanks. I'm not aware of wait times in the U.S. At least not more than a few weeks.

According to who?

Certainly not Business Week or the New York Times.

I would be very interested to know how you came up with that figure, considering the total absence of data collection on wait times in the US.

 

[Willamena]

The "Architect of Canadian Health Care" is not this Castonguay guy, (who I've never even heard of until today) but Tommy Douglas, voted "Greatest Canadian of all time" in a nationwide contest on CBC in 2004.

Woot!

(I voted for David Suzuki.)

 

[Starfish]

According to who?

Certainly not Business Week or the New York Times.

I would be very interested to know how you came up with that figure, considering the total absence of data collection on wait times in the US.

Oh, sorry, I should have been more clear I guess. I just meant that from what I've seen and experienced around me. I never hear of people waiting. I just hear that they're going in for some procedure, or surgery, and never any mention of waiting for it. It just doesn't come up in conversation. I've never know anyone to have to wait months.

But that probably isn't always the case. Maybe others here in RF have experinced wait times in the U.S.?

 

[Reverend Rick]

know what?
up yours.

I have three pre-existing conditions.
I understand that this is just a joke for you.
But for many people cannot afford the outrageous amount the insurance companies want.
i am one of them.

I noticed you ignored my posts.
Yet you continue to imply that those in my position just have to knuckle down and make sacrifices in order to get medical coverage.
Sorry, but a place to stay and the bills being paid have to come first.
i have a wife and two children to think about.

But according to you and your little fantasy world view, I am 'irresponsible.'
Fact is, you don't know sh*t about my situation.

I am done with this thread before I get banned for really speaking my mind on the BS nonsense being dished out here.

Geeze, lighten up mestemia, it was a joke. You always play the gotcha game, guess what, I have had cancer since I was 21 years old. Nice thing to happen after serving your country huh? I have had radiation till I can have no more, chemo and seven operations. If you must know, the reason I don't reply to many of your posts is because I can find no fault with them.

Guess what buddie, the reason I quit smoking is because I need to have another operation which I am putting off while I make enough money to pay for it myself and have capital to live on while I recuperate. I could let someone else run my company, but I am afraid I would have nothing when I came back. Can you understand that?

I don't get to negotiate my fees like insurance companies do and I am way to well off for assistance. I am ripe for the pickings. I can't file bankruptcy because I am fortunate to have something to show for my life and could sell everything I own and pay my expenses. You don't see me crying about my lot in life. I take it on the chin like a man. Life aint fair and you are smart enough to know this.

If you think I hold my positions just for fun, you can kiss my butt. I am a man of principles even when they work against me.