Christians: Where do you draw the line?

[3.14]

a christian is a someone who calls himself that, unless clear rules dictate that that name is offlimits to that person

a person with multiple personalities called christian can also be considered christians even though he never heard of that religion

 

[Scuba Pete]

Interesting. It seems that maqhtai means "learner". It has nothing to do with discipline that i can see.

 

[ayani]

Khale, also see John 14:6-21. i was reading this the other day, and was kind of reading it like for the first time.

and truly, if we believe in what the NT is saying, Jesus *did* raise the dead, heal the sick, grant seeing to the blind, and through His signs and wonders opened hearts to faith and grace. if we trust His promises, we will follow Him, and follow His commandments. it's one thing to say "yes, these are nice teachings" and another to recognize the authority and truth in the One who gives the teachings, and make the decision to be His disciple.

yes, it's exclusive in that way, and that "only one way" belief did bug me for a long time. yet if we love God and are seeking God, we will love and follow the One God sent...

 

[sojourner]

Interesting. It seems that maqhtai means "learner". It has nothing to do with discipline that i can see.

Yet, all learning involves methodology, does it not? The spiritual disciplines are the methodology for maqhtai. Even Jesus took the disciples to synagogue, and to the temple. Even the proto-Church continued to meet in synagogue, and then adjourned to a home to share the meal. These are disciplines, that the community of the faithful practiced together, are they not?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Yet, all learning involves methodology, does it not?

I disagree. Hit your thumb with a hammer. I bet you won't be doing that again anytime soon.

The spiritual disciplines are the methodology for maqhtai.

Is there a scriptural reference for this? It seemed that the majority of Jesus' methodology involved showing love to others.

John 21:15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" NIV

Even Jesus took the disciples to synagogue,

Yeah... Now THAT was fun! My Lord was pissed!!!


Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.' " NIV

 

[sojourner]

I disagree. Hit your thumb with a hammer. I bet you won't be doing that again anytime soon. Is there a scriptural reference for this? It seemed that the majority of Jesus' methodology involved showing love to others.

John 21:15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" NIV

Yeah... Now THAT was fun! My Lord was pissed!!!


Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.' " NIV

I'm glad you disagree. 'K. How do we learn? Does it just "come to us" in a dream? Or seep in by standing close to a book? Or do we receive psychic impressions from others? How do we learn stuff?

Why does there have to be a scriptural reference for everything? You seem to forget that I'm not a subscriber to sola scriptura. Women have PMS, too, but you won'd find that in the Bible anywhere. Jesus' praxis was caring for those who needed care. his impetus was love for God and neighbor. But I certainly think he had a methodology for teaching his disciples: "Do you know what I have done here? I have given you an example, that you, also, should do." The examples of 1) sharing about the Table, 2) identifying with the community by making a sign of having turned from sin, 3) entering into confession of the same -- these are all examples that we follow.

Why do you think God would be pissed? It happened. Jesus took his disciples to synagogue. He even participated, as clergy, in their services. They were good Jews. That's what good Jews did. Why shoud God be ****** about that?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I'm glad you disagree. 'K. How do we learn? Does it just "come to us" in a dream? Or seep in by standing close to a book? Or do we receive psychic impressions from others? How do we learn stuff?

Reading the book of Hebrews should help. Just follow James' caveat to DO what it says.

Why does there have to be a scriptural reference for everything?

There doesn't. But you said this was revealed to the church through scripture. Please trot it out.

You seem to forget that I'm not a subscriber to sola scriptura.

Neither am I. I believe you have to have the Spirit as well.

Why do you think God would be pissed? It happened. Jesus took his disciples to synagogue. He even participated, as clergy, in their services. They were good Jews. That's what good Jews did. Why shoud God be ****** about that?

You think he was HAPPY when he overturned those tables? Do you think he was singing "I'm Happy Today!"???

 

[sojourner]

Reading the book of Hebrews should help. Just follow James' caveat to DO what it says.

Hmm. Seems to me that reading would be the methodology here -- just as doing by example is the methodology of the Church for teaching its members, in Christ's stead.

you said this was revealed to the church through scripture. Please trot it out.

Again: Methodology. If you want to find God in the Bible -- read it, learn it, find out what it says, study it. if you want to find God in the Church, participate in the actions of the Church.

I believe you have to have the Spirit as well.

Of course. I have never said that one doesn't.

You think he was HAPPY when he overturned those tables? Do you think he was singing "I'm Happy Today!"???

You think that was the only time Jesus was in the temple???

 

[Scuba Pete]

Grasping at straws here, eh? Maybe we could just call that your informal praxis then???

For you enjoyment, I leave you with one of my favorite hymns. It may or may not be scripturally based, but I love the sentiment:
God Moves in a Mysterious Way

1. God moves in a mysterious way
His wonders to perform;
He plants His footsteps in the sea,
And rides upon the storm.

2. Deep in unfathomable mines
Of never failing skill
He treasures up His bright designs
And works His sovereign will.

3. Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;
The clouds ye so much dread
Are big with mercy and shall break
In blessings on your head.

4. Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
But trust Him for His grace;
Behind a frowning providence
He hides a smiling face.

5. His purposes will ripen fast,
Unfolding every hour;
The bud may have a bitter taste,
But sweet will be the flower.

6. Blind unbelief is sure to err
And scan His work in vain;
God is His own interpreter,
And He will make it plain.
​

 

[sojourner]

Grasping at straws here, eh? Maybe we could just call that your informal praxis then???

For you enjoyment, I leave you with one of my favorite hymns. It may or may not be scripturally based, but I love the sentiment:
God Moves in a Mysterious Way

1. God moves in a mysterious way​

His wonders to perform;​

He plants His footsteps in the sea,​

And rides upon the storm.​

2. Deep in unfathomable mines​

Of never failing skill​

He treasures up His bright designs​

And works His sovereign will.​

3. Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;​

The clouds ye so much dread​

Are big with mercy and shall break​

In blessings on your head.​

4. Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,​

But trust Him for His grace;​

Behind a frowning providence​

He hides a smiling face.​

5. His purposes will ripen fast,​

Unfolding every hour;​

The bud may have a bitter taste,​

But sweet will be the flower.​

6. Blind unbelief is sure to err​

And scan His work in vain;​

God is His own interpreter,​

And He will make it plain.​

Again, how does this refute anything I've said?

Let me leave you with a hymn:

Earth and All Stars --Brokering

Classrooms and labs
Loud boiling test tubes
Sing to the Lord a new song...

 

[Scott1]

Again, how does this refute anything I've said?

Why does he need to refute what you've said? Aren't we all part of the Body of Christ.... why the need to be "right"? I don't get it.

 

[sojourner]

Why does he need to refute what you've said? Aren't we all part of the Body of Christ.... why the need to be "right"? I don't get it.

I don't know. I've been trying to figure that out, myself.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Again, how does this refute anything I've said?

A mysterious way seems to be lacking any sort of observable praxis.

 

[sojourner]

A mysterious way seems to be lacking any sort of observable praxis.

You don't think it mysterious that Christ hides himself in the little form of bread? You don't think it mysterious that sins are washed away in water? I'd say that's both mysterious and observable.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I think it's symbolic. Symbolism is far different from mystery.

 

[sojourner]

I think it's symbolic. Symbolism is far different from mystery.

The symbol is not an end in itself. It seeks to reveal mystery. therefore, wherever the Church utilizes symbol, it seeks to voice a spiritual mystery that it senses is present within the community.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The symbol is not an end in itself.

No, the end should always be Faith expressing itself through Love.

It seeks to reveal mystery. therefore, wherever the Church utilizes symbol, it seeks to voice a spiritual mystery that it senses is present within the community.

It appears to be far more insidious than that, my friend. Too often, I see these mysteries used as a means to control the masses.

 

[sojourner]

No, the end should always be Faith expressing itself through Love.

That is what we seek to do through participation in the sacraments.

It appears to be far more insidious than that, my friend. Too often, I see these mysteries used as a means to control the masses.

Which is regrettable -- but no reason to run screaming form them. They are not meant t bind us, but to set us free. Why would you want to ignore them? If you ignore them, you cannot then speak out against the evil, and pull crucified people down off their crosses. If you ignore them, you cannot take part in the freedom they afford.

 

[Scuba Pete]

They are not meant t bind us,

But bind us they do.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. NIV

You know, I couldn't have said it better myself! I refuse to adhere to man made traditions. You can use them all you want, but they are simply not for me.

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV



Now substitute tradition where it says "law" and you can begin to understand my aversion to allowing these rules of men to creep in.

 

[sojourner]

yes, yes, yes. I understand your aversion. But why not an aversion to the wrong approach, rather than to the thing itself? Many people misunderstand Christ, and use his name to effect evil. Why not have an aversion to Christ, too?